Plan B

[cajunangel]

once again for the record let me say opinions are like assholes ... everyone has one. yes young people do make mistakes, but the parents should teach kids to be responsible, as my mother and father taught me. and as for adults, there are entirely to many methods of birth control to have "unplanned" or "unwanted" pregancies. are they to lazy to go get a condom? to scared to ask about patches and pills? i realize not everyone thinks with the right head, thats what education is all about. parents need to step up and educate their kids... no ifs ands or buts about it. i chose not to have sex , for a number of reasons, my morals, self worth and values... i stand by my "opinion" and that is unless a woman was raped , or the pregnancy poses health risk to mother and/or child, access to the pill should be off limits. aside from contraceptives , there is adoption... my aunt and uncle adopted a small child, not a baby, and he along with them couldnt be happier.. there is always an alternative, abortion is murder, call it what you want embryo, fetus, its still a life.. whether you want it or not.. its a life.. who gave any of us the right to play God and destroy innocence? :3d_frown:

 

[91T breezen']

its a life.. who gave any of us the right to play God and destroy innocence? :3d_frown:

Angel;
Therein lies the problem! The individuals who do not believe in God, do not feel beholden to any authority beyond the scope of society. They do not have to answer for anything, therefor feel no guilt or remorse when they destroy innocent life...the unborn embryo. You cannot change the ignorrance of their beliefs, just hold firm to yours.

 

[91T breezen']

ohh! interesting perspective. so you think athiests do not value life?

im an extremely spiritual person. i also do not believe that i will be "judged" when i die. i ALSO pride my self in having a desire to do what is right.

Explain your "sprituality" to me, if you are indeed an atheist. Do you know what atheist means? Maybe if I could relate to your perspective, it would help me justify abortion. Where does your "desire" to do what is right come from? If you don't have to answer to anyone, what keeps you doing the "right thing"? Humans, by nature, are not inclined to do right, unless it's a belief, or a strong teaching based on a moral point of view. You don't just grow up, and automatically know right from wrong.

 

[MKIII VIXEN]

It is my belief that life begins at conception. Cells begin to divide and growth happens (life). Life is a gift. If you do not ovulate, fertilization does not happen.
I am the mother of two, both planned, both girls. My mother was very straight forward with me about sex and the consequences of it. I plan to be just as straight forward with my daughters.
I do x-ray, and we have to ask any female old enough to have a period if there is any chance of them being pregnant. You would not believe how many teenage girls look at me and say " I don't know". They don't know because they have not been told the truth about how conception occurs. Do I think parents are falling down on the job? Yes.
Do I think that this pill should be OTC? NO. Aside from my religious beliefs about this, if you have sex with someone you do not intend to have a relationship with, do not know well, or do not entend to have children with you should use a condom. There are too many STD's out there that you do not need to catch or share. I believe making this pill readily available leaves more room for people to do stupid things ( unprotected sex). Yes it is there bodies, but how many teenagers are thinking clearly through that hormone fog?
As for abortion, if you can't tell I am pro-life. The manner of conception is not the fault of an unborn child.

 

[SP 7M]

Mike, you've blatantly ignored the points I've made and have failed to regard certain facts that don't support your view. It's extremely hard to rationally argue with somebody that has those tendencies.

I am all for freedom of speech and I believe that differing views are necessary. However, the way that you go about making your points (and you make them) and arguing against others is simply unfair.

Well shit, I can't resist. I thought of this while I was driving today...

Since many of you believe that we shouldn't be held accountable for our mistakes - seemingly no matter the magnitude - should there be some way out for murderers within 72 hours of killing somebody? Should rapists be able to un-do their terrible actions? Should there be some pill to get rid of the HIV virus, herpes and other horrible STDs just because you "made a mistake"? (I have friends that have been sexually active with prostitutes in third-world countries without protection and if they got an STD from it - some got the clap - then that's their fault. I have no remorse for them.)

We have to draw the line somewhere and make people deal with their mistakes and learn a thing or two from them instead of giving them chance after chance after chance whilst inevitably spending tax-payers' money.

Lets say an overly promiscuous woman gets pregnant and decides to have the child. Little does she know she's had a STD and has never had any sign of it (it's medically possible) and ends up giving it to the child when it's born. Who suffers and pays for the mistakes then?

Now I'll elaborate on a point I made earlier. Some of you act as if people are being forced to have sex by some force that we cannot stop. Sure, we're set up to have the drive to reproduce. That in no way makes it impossible for any of us to resist from having sex. There are those of us with moral values (religious or otherwise) that don't just go out and "bang" everybody we can. It's called self control - something that far too many of us are in short supply of. So I just don't see the angle some of you try to play on that. That's because there isn't one.

The atheist shouldn't be able to whine and complain about that right? But it's alright to take away their freedoms just so long as you're not losing yours right?

I'm all for freedom of religion. One of my best friends is an atheist (and happens to be a damn good guy) so if you think I've got anything against them, I don't. Public displays of any religion are just fine by me, too.

Are you in the military (just curious)?

I'm about to get out at the end of my five-year contract in October and I've never once heard anybody have anything negative to say about having to swear in. Maybe some people just pick their battles and prioritize them choicefully. If somebody wants to change it, go ahead, please just do it respectfully.

So no, not "...right?" (in reference to your last sentence).

Explain your "sprituality" to me, if you are indeed an atheist. Do you know what atheist means? Maybe if I could relate to your perspective, it would help me justify abortion. Where does your "desire" to do what is right come from? If you don't have to answer to anyone, what keeps you doing the "right thing"? Humans, by nature, are not inclined to do right, unless it's a belief, or a strong teaching based on a moral point of view. You don't just grow up, and automatically know right from wrong.

Excellent arguement (nothing against you, lagged). Well put, my good man.

 

[wingman]

Maybe if I could relate to your perspective, it would help me justify abortion.

no offense, but you seem very well set in your ways...i honestly don't think he's going to sway your mind.

Where does your "desire" to do what is right come from?

simple, you justify your actions because you base them off of what you believe to be "right". It's not a desire to do what is right, it's a desire to justify yourself, to give yourself a reason for what you just did.

If you don't have to answer to anyone, what keeps you doing the "right thing"?

myself, i do what i believe to be right and just. I make my own rules that I will follow....even if the rules of society may differ

Humans, by nature, are not inclined to do right, unless it's a belief, or a strong teaching based on a moral point of view.

"right" is how you define it, what you believe it to be, it's a belief in itself. are you saying that no matter how I define "right" that I will never be inclined to do "right"?

You don't just grow up, and automatically know right from wrong.

By growing up I presume you meant mentally maturing. Maturity is a subjective term and has an endless supply of definitions....however I do believe that in the process of mentally maturing you develop your system of beliefs whether or not they are based out of the passages of a book, the words of your parents, or just by your own observations. knowing YOUR "right" and "wrong" is part of mentally maturing, is it not?



now then....i believe that abortion is justified because if you wish for your genetic information to not be passed on, or do not believe you are able to care for, love, or handle the responsibility of what you have created then you should be given the opportunity to cut off support to it. You see the fetus exists becasue the mother supports it, if the mother does not want to support the fetus then she sure as hell isn't going to support it when it's a whining screaming ball of hungry energy. It's eaisier on the mother, the father, the family, and the wallet. When it all comes down to it all you are doing is ending another system of chemical reactions.

 

[rakkasan]

If this is not the case, state your logical postion opposing the release of this drug. Do so without reference to your god, your religion or the bible. State publicly and plainly that this has nothing to do with your religious beliefs. If your religion requires honesty, I doubt you can without breaking your faith.

However, I do notice that you've conveinietly latched on to this one little portion of my post and disregarded everything else I wrote. I'm still waiting for something illustrative of my supposed hypocricy.

I can show you my point easily without once referencing my religious beliefs. First, I simply think it's an absolutely stupid idea to put Plan B in the hands of a 12 year old that wasn't told about birth control. Sure, you'll argue next that there should be an age limit, but they never work. How many 12 year old kids smoke these days. How many drink alcohol?

I believe that parents are just getting down right lazy these days. Instead of teaching their kids about sex, birth control, abstinence, et al, they would rather have an option when they do something wrong. The same attitude that says kids are mature enough to make similar decisions are also the ones that allow early teens to stay out to 11pm or later dressed like $20 whores. It's also the same attitude that blames everyone BUT their child after their kids commits a crime. It's a disgusting display from supposedly responsible adults, and moreover, it nothing more than laziness as parents.

**Look above, not one display of biblical verses, so it can be done**

As for your hypocracy, where to begin.....

You can't defend your position without bringing up religion, so you interject it as much as possible. What I find hypocritical is the fact that I am a Christian and I can defend my position quite well without out one reference to biblical vessels. On the other hand, you are an athiest, and you can't defend you position without refencing something that you deny exists.

Further, SP 7M literally blasts massive holes through your morality argument by saying that, by your beliefs, murder & rape should be legalized. Your only counter is the preverbial strawman defense. It's funny that the strawman defense is only raised when someone can't defend their position. It's kinda like a modern day white flag to me.

I said very early in this thread that it was only started to cause an Christian vs. atheist argument, thanks for proving me right. I'm done with this thread.

 

[Supracentral]

ad hominem

Go review my postion on this topic. The supporting logic & facts do not reference religion at all. I can defend my position easily without ever discussing the invisible man in the sky, or whatever you choose to call him.

Since many of you believe that we shouldn't be held accountable for our mistakes

I believe people should be fully accountable for their mistakes and actions.

I'm starting to believe you want them punished for them, there's a considerable difference...

 

[Joel W.]

As I read this thread, I come to the conclusion that it all boils down to this:

Having the right to choose or having that right to choose removed.

The ones who choose to use it, will not be forcing others to use it if they do not choose to take it.

It is better to have a choice, imo...

 

[Supracentral]

As I read this thread, I come to the conclusion that it all boils down to this:

Having the right to choose or having that right to choose removed.

The ones who choose to use it, will not be forcing others to use it if they do not choose to take it.

It is better to have a choice, imo...

That is, succinctly, EVERYTHING I have been saying.

Seemingly this is a difficult concept to grasp.

 

[foreverpsycotic]

my feeling on this is very split as it is both a good and bad thing.

i feel that is is very good because mistakes do happen, condoms do break(been there, done that, gf took the pill) and rapes happen. but what is to stop people going out and purchacing a handful of these pills because they are going to have a "good" weekend. people already abuse birth control pills by thinking that they are a cureall and have unprotected sex, when it should be used in cunjunction with some other form of protection.

all in all this is of no consequence to me, because i am happly absitinanant. i dont need sex, dont want sex, dont have sex. there are other ways to achieve orgasms that do not have an ill side effect of an unwanted pregnancy.

 

[NDBoost]

All i have to say is the Morning after pills makes it more "all naturalee":biglaugh: :naughty:

Plan B FTW

I'm pro choice...

 

[cadman]

So many views and oppinions of matters not pertaining to the Plan-B pill. Come on guys, I've read enough about Christians being at fault, or only Christians not wanting the planB, or Christians not wanting people to adopt. (Most addoption places are funded by Churches by the way, look it up.) I know my church gives money to help make addoption cheaper to peopel who can't have kids.

The ammount of blindness is amazing as well, lumping everyone into one type of class. That was just like saying All MKIV owners are assholes... nope, just met the nicest MKIV owner the other day.

So, back to the topic of the Plan-B pill. It's not right. Why? Lets view something that would be similar to this situation, for comparison, and to take emotion out of the picture. I speed some times. Some times I mean to, some times I don't, I'm just not paying attention. When I am purposely speeding, I accept that I may get a ticket. I watch really closely for cops, and I don't speed when I think a cop might be around, but I got pulled over, got a ticket because I was speeding. Well I chose to do it, now I have to pay for it.

Ok so lets say that, they just came out with some sort of paper you could get, that when given a ticket, all you had to do is show this paper, and you didn't have to pay for it. Wow!!! Freaking awesome!! Since you now have access to this paper, you can speed when ever you want, and if you get caught, you just flip out this paper and the cop goes away.

This natually will lead to young people speeding because they can get away with it. This will also lead to young people killing other people because they are driving too fast and they aren't able to handle the car as well as they think.

Plan-B pill. There is a release of moral abligation with this pill. With that release, there are negative reactions, as well as some possible (positive) reactions.

Say some old guy can't pay for a ticket, he would loose his car. Before the piece of paper, he would try extra hard not to speed, now however, he has free help. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Who knows? He can stop himself from speeding. He loves speed!!! But... he has to take responsibility for his actions. With this little paper, he doesn't.

Don't try and tell me you can't help but have sex. It doesn't matter how poor you are, or how rich you are, you can make the choice not to have sex. See, that's what seperates us from monkeys, even though most people would like to think that's where we came from... if you're told you came from a monkey, you might try to blame your not being able to keep your dick in your pants on being a product of billions of years of animal instinct. Yeah... you have a choice not to sleep with a drunk 16 year old who is passed out. You have a choice to wait until you're married. But if you do have sex, things can happen. And you have to accept that.

Rape? Oh please, the ammount of women who get pregnant by rape is so small they can't hardly come up with any, however there are cases out there. Just ask some of the kids who grow up to be great people, saving lives by being a fire fighter, oh and their mom was raped and that's how they came to be. My friend's mom went ahead and had him, even though she knew he was from being raped. And you know what? He saved her life when she slipped and fell in the bathroom in the shower because at 6 years old he called 911.

Moral or not, Christian or not, people are different. The pill is a release of moral obligation, and that can't be good for today's youth. I don't care what belief you think you have.

 

[figgie]

So, back to the topic of the Plan-B pill. It's not right. Why? Lets view something that would be similar to this situation, for comparison, and to take emotion out of the picture. I speed some times. Some times I mean to, some times I don't, I'm just not paying attention. When I am purposely speeding, I accept that I may get a ticket. I watch really closely for cops, and I don't speed when I think a cop might be around, but I got pulled over, got a ticket because I was speeding. Well I chose to do it, now I have to pay for it.

About time figgie joined thos foray.

what makes it right? You? Your beliefs?

And your choice to speed knowing the consequence. What if I tell you there is a way to speed with a cop at 50 paces from you and he can't get you on lidar, radar? What woud you say to that. I know exactly what you would say, where can I get one. I speed all the time. I have ways of MINIMIZING my chances of getting caught. And if I get caught, guess where I am going with this. Court of law

Ok so lets say that, they just came out with some sort of paper you could get, that when given a ticket, all you had to do is show this paper, and you didn't have to pay for it. Wow!!! Freaking awesome!! Since you now have access to this paper, you can speed when ever you want, and if you get caught, you just flip out this paper and the cop goes away.

This natually will lead to young people speeding because they can get away with it. This will also lead to young people killing other people because they are driving too fast and they aren't able to handle the car as well as they think.

Plan-B pill. There is a release of moral abligation with this pill. With that release, there are negative reactions, as well as some possible (positive) reactions.

moral obligation based on what? Religion? What you think is right?
If i were to take you moral obligations and put it up against natural instinct it would fall appart. natural instinct has always been to procreate (see darwin, survival of the fittest) sans religous customs (MARRIAGE).

Say some old guy can't pay for a ticket, he would loose his car. Before the piece of paper, he would try extra hard not to speed, now however, he has free help. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Who knows? He can stop himself from speeding. He loves speed!!! But... he has to take responsibility for his actions. With this little paper, he doesn't.

Don't try and tell me you can't help but have sex. It doesn't matter how poor you are, or how rich you are, you can make the choice not to have sex. See, that's what seperates us from monkeys, even though most people would like to think that's where we came from... if you're told you came from a monkey, you might try to blame your not being able to keep your dick in your pants on being a product of billions of years of animal instinct. Yeah... you have a choice not to sleep with a drunk 16 year old who is passed out. You have a choice to wait until you're married. But if you do have sex, things can happen. And you have to accept that.

Rape? Oh please, the ammount of women who get pregnant by rape is so small they can't hardly come up with any, however there are cases out there. Just ask some of the kids who grow up to be great people, saving lives by being a fire fighter, oh and their mom was raped and that's how they came to be. My friend's mom went ahead and had him, even though she knew he was from being raped. And you know what? He saved her life when she slipped and fell in the bathroom in the shower because at 6 years old he called 911.

Moral or not, Christian or not, people are different. The pill is a release of moral obligation, and that can't be good for today's youth. I don't care what belief you think you have.

WRONG ANSWER. The pill is just that, A pill. it is a choice. Some people choose to have sex, some people choose sadomasochims as a form of sex, Some chose anal sex, some chose fisting, scat, etc. What gives you any damn right to oppress someones elses choice on what you think is "moraly" right? Hell if it was to moraly correct folks, women would still be at home doing thier "womanly" duty incase you forgot about the womens right movement.

 

[Joel W.]

succinctly,

Makes me go for the dictionary, again...

 

[cadman]

About time figgie joined thos foray.

what makes it right? You? Your beliefs? Nope, never said anything about my beliefs. You assumed.

And your choice to speed knowing the consequence. What if I tell you there is a way to speed with a cop at 50 paces from you and he can't get you on lidar, radar? What woud you say to that. I know exactly what you would say, where can I get one. I speed all the time. I have ways of MINIMIZING my chances of getting caught. And if I get caught, guess where I am going with this. Court of law

Sure, I have a detector, I would go to court. But I might still get the ticket. What if, after that, I just flashed a piece of paper out there. I would speed all the time. That would be dangerous.



moral obligation based on what? Religion? What you think is right? Even today's laws are based on the Bible. Don't steal, don't kill, don't move property lines. What are you doing to do about that? It's in the Bible and in our laws, does that mean that by doing that, you're a Christian?

If i were to take you moral obligations and put it up against natural instinct it would fall appart. natural instinct has always been to procreate (see darwin, survival of the fittest) sans religous customs (MARRIAGE). Really? Then why are there Gay people. They don't want to have kids, just sex. Is that supposed to be natural? I have never seen a male or female animal ever have sex with it's same kind, and complete or "orgasm". Guess my moral obbligations are pretty much right up there with Natural instinct, cause I want to have kids too, I just do it the "right" way. I don't rape my wife, she rather enjoys it.



WRONG ANSWER. The pill is just that, A pill. it is a choice. Some people choose to have sex, some people choose sadomasochims as a form of sex, Some chose anal sex, some chose fisting, scat, etc. What gives you any damn right to oppress someones elses choice on what you think is "moraly" right? Hell if it was to moraly correct folks, women would still be at home doing thier "womanly" duty incase you forgot about the womens right movement.

Wow, then drugs are just that, drugs. You pop a pill to get high, and to reduce the chance of having a baby. Well if getting high is wrong... when did I tell anyone not to have sex? Never. When did I tell men not to have sex with other men? Never. Never oppressed anyone. oops, that seems to be an issue only you have. Womens rights? Bah, my wife has all the power in our relationship, and she knows how to handle it. Women who want to be Equal with men? Why? You want to put yourself down that far? The women had the power back then. They did control the men. Shit if they didn't want men to do something, no sex for a week. Hm, I think men folded. I would. (that's sex.. in marrage... with a commitment. Oh, and by the way, what makes you think that women sitting at home doing their "womanly" stuff is a moral issue? Sounds like a lifestyle to me, and a choice. It has nothing to do with Morality. Try finding out first what "moral" means.

 

[NDBoost]

This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes...

 

[Supracentral]

George Hanson: They're not scared of you. They're scared of what you represent to 'em.
Billy: Hey, man. All we represent to them, man, is somebody who needs a haircut.
George Hanson: Oh, no. What you represent to them is freedom.
Billy: What the hell is wrong with freedom? That's what it's all about.
George Hanson: Oh, yeah, that's right. That's what's it's all about, all right. But talkin' about it and bein' it, that's two different things. I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. Of course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free, 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are. Oh, yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom. But they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em.
Billy: Well, it don't make 'em runnin' scared.
George Hanson: No, it makes 'em dangerous.

That little exchange is probably closer to the truth than most people want to admit. What is it about freedom that scares you folks so badly that you want to take it away? If you are willing to take freedom from others, how much of yours are you willing to give up? At what point do we draw the line? The bedroom isn't safe, people want to legislate sexual behavior between consenting adults. With hate crime legistlation, thoughts aren't safe. You face a stiffer penalty based upon your REASONS for a crime, not the crime iteslf. Your medical health is not your own, we'll legislate that too. Your life isn't even your own. We'll legislate your control of that away too.

Where do we draw the line? How far is too far? At what point does the governments intervention in your life become more than you can stand?

 

[figgie]

Wow, then drugs are just that, drugs. You pop a pill to get high, and to reduce the chance of having a baby. Well if getting high is wrong... when did I tell anyone not to have sex? Never. When did I tell men not to have sex with other men? Never. Never oppressed anyone. oops, that seems to be an issue only you have. Womens rights? Bah, my wife has all the power in our relationship, and she knows how to handle it. Women who want to be Equal with men? Why? You want to put yourself down that far? The women had the power back then. They did control the men. Shit if they didn't want men to do something, no sex for a week. Hm, I think men folded. I would. (that's sex.. in marrage... with a commitment. Oh, and by the way, what makes you think that women sitting at home doing their "womanly" stuff is a moral issue? Sounds like a lifestyle to me, and a choice. It has nothing to do with Morality. Try finding out first what "moral" means.

actually A choice NOW. back 60 years ago it wasn't a choice. It was thier obligation to clean, have lunch ready etc for the man. As for your view on morality. Thanksfully it is your view (morality deals with PEOPLE and my opinion on PEOPLE is as follows; People are stupid, illogical and all suffer from the lemming suicide syndrome, monkey see monkey do. A Person is smart, articulate and thoughtful by thier own accord).

thanks for the lesson, please drive through.

 

[figgie]

Where do we draw the line? How far is too far? At what point does the governments intervention in your life become more than you can stand?

when the first sheeple actually figures out what those folks that wrote the constitution had in mind. Until then this "greater" good mentality will previal unfortunatly.