Plan B

[lagged]

I'd have had my tubes cut and burned when I turned 18. But 18 years old, when my gyno told me no, I obviously wasn't smart enough to do the research into it and find out they really can't -refuse- it, or had any money to speak to a lawyer.

ok, some problems here. you say you werent smart enough to do the research. but here you say:

I wish that people wouldn't assume that at 18, a woman is not mature enough to make the decision that they don't want kids. I can enlist in the military, and die for my country

but you just said your self you werent smart enough to do some simple research, what makes you think you were mature enough to make a decision like that?

my point is this, i do believe at 18 you should have the righ to do whatever you want. however, just because youre an "adult" dosnt mean youre mature enough to make certain decisions. this is where good parenting comes in (NOT government regulation..) and not only that, you said it your self that at 18 you werent mature enough to realize you have rights.

I don't regret my children, and they are not "mistakes" to me

and yet you say you would have had your tubes tied at 18, negating the existance of your children now.

the arguments against something like plan b are based on flawed logic and ideals. clearly illustrated by your inability to form a coherant argument against it! this is NOT a personal attack against you! it is my OPINION (i could be wrong) that you have simply been raised with certain morals and ideas, (nothing wrong with that) that you are steadfastly sticking by even though a TRULEY valid argument against the product in discussion simply does not exist.



one final point for this post, you said you would have had your tubes tied at 18. well, that is a SURGICAL procedure. dosnt that seem a little drastic? at all? if you think God wouldnt approve of you using plan b to prevent a pregnancy, dont you think that he would also be a little perterbed at you mutilating your own body in order to have sex willy nilly with no consequences?

further more, Plan b is not intended as a regular contraceptive like condoms or the pill, it is an EMERGENCY contraceptive for women who have been raped or if a condom broke. EXTREME situations only.

id just like to end with this though its a tad off topic, earlier i trivialized Gods role in our lives by saying hed be annoyed at having that surgery, my idea of god is not some all powerful father figure in the sky watching everything we do. more of a collective conciousness per se, made up of all our souls, and life in general combined. anyway, i just wanted to say that before someone had a chance to critisize my use of God as a parent figure.

oh also one more thing. the government says at 18 we can go fight and die for our country. i truley believe this is because they are fully aware that at 18 your decision making may not be as logically sound if you were say, 21 or so.

of course everyone is different, but generally the younger one is, the more willing he would be to make stupid impulse based decisions, such as joining the military to die.

you can choose to die at 18, but you better not have beer until youre 21! of course this is now a different topic all together.

 

[Shytheed Dumas]

Mike, my beliefs on right to life were well in place long before any trauma. Those stories simply illustrate the ugly truth of abortion, and I have nothing but solid logic behind it. As far as having every option available? Sure, but I'll just want those that don't kill somebody available, please.

Again, just look to your moral responsibility in handling natural consequences on this topic. Do the right thing to begin with. If you don't, then do the right thing when everything goes wrong. I can't be more logical than that.

 

[FoolishOne]

Supracentral, did you post this for your own satisfaction? All you seem to be doing is rewording and/or proving your point from a different angle every time you post. You are just as bad as everyone else, except instead of coming at it from a 'rapee', pregant 18 year old, or member of a church, you come at it from some weird angle. If I were to come on here and start preaching about how the Bible says this and that, you'd call me a right wing whack job (which I won't deny in the least). But if you come on here from your angle, you think you are 'different' than everybody else and not...for the lack of a better word...throwing your opinion at people, not necessaryily making them believe it, but you are.

I don't care what the world says is true, I believe what I believe. Eventually everyone will find out exactly what I am talking about....you wait and see.

Just a thing that I saw while reading the thread is that people think that if they don't believe in God or a god than they are better the the people that believe in God or a god, when in reality they are the exact same, just without and proven and Holy book.

Sometimes I just get so upset that people just shove things in other people's faces trying to turn others toward their thinking, which if you realize it or not (maybe you call it 'invalidating someones opinion'), you are.

»fo

 

[DreamerTheresa]

Sometimes I just get so upset that people just shove things in other people's faces trying to turn others toward their thinking, which if you realize it or not (maybe you call it 'invalidating someones opinion'), you are.

»fo

This is what the hard-core religious types do ALL THE TIME. The anti-abortionists do the same.

 

[SupraMario]

This is what the hard-core religious types do ALL THE TIME. The anti-abortionists do the same.

Separation of Church and State

 

[Supracentral]

Supracentral, did you post this for your own satisfaction? All you seem to be doing is rewording and/or proving your point from a different angle every time you post. You are just as bad as everyone else, except instead of coming at it from a 'rapee', pregant 18 year old, or member of a church, you come at it from some weird angle. If I were to come on here and start preaching about how the Bible says this and that, you'd call me a right wing whack job (which I won't deny in the least). But if you come on here from your angle, you think you are 'different' than everybody else and not...for the lack of a better word...throwing your opinion at people, not necessaryily making them believe it, but you are.

I have to repeat myself, because, as your post proves, it takes a lot for some people to understand BASIC concepts.

Let me sum this up in the plainest language possible.

There is a difference, and it's a MAJOR one.

I don't want to enforce my morality on ANYONE. I'm not asking you to use this pill. I'm not saying that using it is right for you. I don't ever want to excersise any level of force to push my beliefs on other people. I want the law to allow for choice.

All I want is for people to be able to choose, on an individual basis, what is right or wrong for THEM. Not everyone else, just them.

When you pass a law restricting liberty, you use FORCE.

When you come out here screaming that your bilble, god, belief is the ONLY way and that laws must be passed to enforce it, you are asking the government to use FORCE to make your way the ONLY way.

Is this basic difference that difficult for you to understand? This is why I need to find 101 different ways to say it. Because I have stated this clearly several times, yet it appears you didn't grasp it.

FORCE /= NO FORCE

Capiche?

Heh... "weird angle" - freedom, liberty, personal responsibility, choice - yea, wierd...

 

[Fuzz420]

I always thought plan b was the stairs

 

[rakkasan]

I don't want to enforce my morality on ANYONE. I'm not asking you to use this pill. I'm not saying that using it is right for you. I don't ever want to excersise any level of force to push my beliefs on other people. I want the law to allow for choice.

LOL. You're not asking anyone to use Plan B, but you are asking everyone to accept that your point of view is morally acceptable?

By pushing your point of view, asking for law to allow for choice, you are in fact shoving your morals down the same peoples throats that you claim are doing the same to you. Laws are made by the request of the majority of the citizens. The laws are an image of the people, so I care deeply about what becomes law. By legalizing the use of Plan B, it promotes the image that all of the US citizens support it. I do not.

Your argument is hypocritical to the core, yet you won't acknowledge it.....

 

[Allan_MA70]

Laws are made by the request of the majority of the citizens.

No - Law is made by the people with the money, power and PR department the churchs have all of these! unfortunately it seems elections are just there to let us think our vote counts!

 

[rakkasan]

No - Law is made by the people with the money, power and PR department the churchs have all of these! unfortunately it seems elections are just there to let us think our vote counts!

um, ok....

 

[Supracentral]

LOL. You're not asking anyone to use Plan B, but you are asking everyone to accept that your point of view is morally acceptable?

Not at all, I'm asking you to get out of the way, and let people choose, for themselves period. Again, basic concept, can you wrap your mind around it?

I don't care if you find it morally acceptable. As a matter of fact I'll vehemently defend your right to your opinion. If they were trying to force you or your family to use this drug, I'd be fighting to stop that as well.

By pushing your point of view, asking for law to allow for choice, you are in fact shoving your morals down the same peoples throats that you claim are doing the same to you. Laws are made by the request of the majority of the citizens. The laws are an image of the people, so I care deeply about what becomes law. By legalizing the use of Plan B, it promotes the image that all of the US citizens support it. I do not.

Laws don't grant rights, grant priveleges, or LEGALIZE anything. Laws restrict rights, deny priveleges and make things illegal. Anything is legal until you pass a law against it.

And as for "Laws are made by the request of the majority of the citizens" - NO, INCORRECT.

Say 3/4ths of the poeple in Alabama decide tomorrow that black people may be killed on sight? What's to stop it? It's the MAJORITY right? That is the reason why we live in a Constitiuional Republic, not a democracy. (You must be product of the public schools...) A democracy is a dangerous thing, a lynch mob, by definition is a democracy.

Your argument is hypocritical to the core, yet you won't acknowledge it.....

I have yet to see you, or anyone, define any hypocricy on my part. Where have I tried to use force to restrict rights or deny you the freedom to choose YOUR own path? Don't agree with this drug? Don't use it. Teach your kids it's wrong, tell your friends you think it's wrong. Do whatever the hell you want but leave me and everyone else the hell alone. Why can't you grasp this simple concept? I could expain it to an 8 year old and they'd get it....

Again, I ask the basic question, is your faith so weak, and your belief so shallow that you feel you need to remove choice from people and enforce (at the muzzle of a gun) your beliefs on others? Isn't the basic core of faith free will? You are supposed to spread the word, not enforce the word.

Your type of thinking brought us the Spainish Inquisition and the Crusades. And if you don't have the sense to be ashamed of those historic events in the name of god, you aren't worth my time...

 

[rakkasan]

Show me where I brought my religous beliefs into this argument. I don't think I did....

Why did you interject religous beliefs into this?

 

[Allan_MA70]

Show me where I brought my religous beliefs into this argument. I don't think I did....

Why did you interject religous beliefs into this?

Typicaly what you beleave in does have something todo with what you say and think

 

[rakkasan]

Typicaly what you beleave in does have something todo with what you say and think

I agree, but point to where I brought religion into this. Like I said before, this thread was started for no other reason than to start an Atheist vs. Christian arguement. Now look where we are and how we got here.

 

[Supracentral]

Show me where I brought my religous beliefs into this argument. I don't think I did....

Why did you interject religous beliefs into this?

We've already covered this. Way back in post 19. I'll even quote myself:

It should not be a religious issue, but it is, because the science, the facts, the medical evidence and statistics all show there's only one logical choice. Religion is the roadblock, as usual, to progress.

We've thrown science, logic and medicine out the window in favor of fear, ignorance and medival morailty.

If this is not the case, state your logical postion opposing the release of this drug. Do so without reference to your god, your religion or the bible. State publicly and plainly that this has nothing to do with your religious beliefs. If your religion requires honesty, I doubt you can without breaking your faith.

However, I do notice that you've conveinietly latched on to this one little portion of my post and disregarded everything else I wrote. I'm still waiting for something illustrative of my supposed hypocricy.

 

[Adjuster]

Plan B is a great idea.
RU-486 is too, but along with other full fledged abortions, RU-486 is killing the fetus where Plan B is not killing anything but eggs and sperm. (They die all the time, every wet dream and menstrual cycle kills them, and I don't belive there is any issue here about that, at least for me anyway.)

So, where do you draw the line?

I think it has to be up to us individually to make that choice, and not government to make it for us.

There are so many "oops" children in this world that have contributed so much to what we have that killing them all is not a good idea. However, there are so many unwed mothers and lives thrown away due to unexpected children it's not funny either. (Our tax dollars at work to try and support these leaches on society is not funny in the least.)

Don't get me wrong. I know and love a few of the "leaches" but they are living on our dime no doubt about it, and it can't go on forever. The system is screwed up too. Once your in, you want to stay in, and that's easy to do since having kids is about the most fun possible while your naked... (Or clothed...)

Sex is not going to go away. The dolts who say "just keep it in your pants" or Keep your legs together are being unrealistic, and blind to reality. Humans like to have sex. It's natural that we have it, and have kids as a result. (Even in the Bible, and other religious writings, they tell us to mulitiply and replenish the earth.)

I have to say I like the "plan B" idea. It's been around in the form of taking a full month's worth of birth control the day after for many, many years. (If your taught that... ) Knowlege is power, so I say to tell as many young girls and boys that if you screw up, have unprotected sex, condem breaks, or your just having a good time and did not stop to wrap up, forget to take the birthcontrol or whatever, the world is not over. The girl just needs to take either a plan b, or consume a month's worth of birthcontrol pills.

So you say that only teens are stupid enough to do this? LOL Right, sure. I remember a few times sitting on pins and needles for weeks waiting for the period to start of the woman I fucked and then afterward she says... "I'm not on birth control..." OH FUCK ME!

Only hypocrites and liers say they have never been in the same spot, or won't be one of these days. (Even you people who are proud to be virgins, I was there once, waited till I was in my 20's even, and I'm not so STUPID to say that I'll never think this is a great idea. Shit happens, and you'll have sex sooner or later, and chances are you'll make mistakes when doing it since your not very acomplished being a virgin and all.) Then you'll be sitting at the Safeway store at 2am, looking at the medicine isle wondering how your going to deal with this possible problem, and the "Plan B" option would be very nice to have indeed. (Plan C is to wait a few weeks, then buy a pregnancy tester...)

Don't flame me, just think about it. Everyone's going to be there sooner or later. Just don't be there ignorant of your options if you can possibly help it.

BTW, I have two wonderful kids and a family now, but I'm DAMN glad that I did not have kids with many, many, MANY of the women I've fucked in my life.

 

[rakkasan]

We've already covered this. Way back in post 19. I'll even quote myself:



If this is not the case, state your logical postion opposing the release of this drug. Do so without reference to your god, your religion or the bible.

Can you not read? I have not made any reference to my religious beliefs. You interjected religion, apparently for the sole purpose of starting a athiest vs. Christian fight.

 

[Supracentral]

Again, this was covered a long time back in this thread, so once again I'll repeat myself for the 'learning disabled' folks we have around here.

Of all the drugs that were reccomended for approval by the panel at the time Plan B was submitted, all were approved, without age restriction, unless there was a medical reason for the restriction. No such reason was found for Plan B, and the panel reccomended that it be released over the counter.

The ONLY reason the FDA did not release the drug was due to pressure from the conservative and christian lobby groups. The FDA languished for FOUR FREAKING YEARS without making any decision. And the current release is a political compromise. Politics and medicine are very dangerous bedfellows...

If you remove religion from this discussion, there is no debate as the drug would have been released 4 years ago under the terms that the medical tests defined for it, like it should have been.

You can't convieniently remove facts and pretend like they don't exist. Sorry.

Can you not read? I have not made any reference to my religious beliefs. You interjected religion, apparently for the sole purpose of starting a athiest vs. Christian fight.

I can read quite well thank you, apparently far better than you since I have to keep restating things that I've said two or three times in this thread already... I believe I've already clearly illustrated that religion is the reason the debate exists at all. We are forging medical policy based upon pressure from religious groups. It's a key element of what is going on here. I'm not willing to create some fantasy world that you can play around in to argue a point within your imaginary scenario. I'm out here in the real world, where are you?

 

[SP 7M]

To each and every one of you that say you shouldn't force your morals on anyone else, I say this:

Legalize murder.

Legalize rape.

Legalize theft.

Legalize every drug known to man.

Legalize pedophilia.

There are no longer any laws in your world of moral relativism. For without morals, nothing is right, wrong or anywhere in between.

Separation of church and state? Sorry to say it, but the fact is that it's not possible in America. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. Until you leave (although you never will), stop your whining and complaining because you know deep in your heart that you live in the best country in the world (for those of you Americans). Yes, we need plenty of change to fix our problems, though the fact is that you just can't find anywhere else that's better than here, or even comparable for that matter.

Have a nice day.

 

[Supracentral]

If you don't like it, go somewhere else. Until you leave (although you never will), stop your whining and complaining because you know deep in your heart that you live in the best country in the world (for those of you Americans). Yes, we need plenty of change to fix our problems, though the fact is that you just can't find anywhere else that's better than here, or even comparable for that matter.

So since it's "good enough" no one should complain? Should we have allowed slavery to continue in the US? I mean it was still the best country in the world then too? But it got BETTER because, as you put it, people were "whining and complaining"...

The Consitution protects people by preventing them from "legalizing" the things you rant on about up there. (Except for drugs, which should be legalized...) Understand we are a nation of law, and then learn how the system works, then read a little history, maybe even some philosophy before you go off on silly rants like this, you look very childish at the moment.