Wrap your mind around this.

[Dirgle]

"The abacus was an early aid for mathematical computations. Its only value is that it aids the memory of the human performing the calculation."

as would a piece of paper and an pencil...

not to throw the argument a whole another way... and I don't know why I continue, but basically...

"The first computers were people! That is, electronic computers (and the earlier mechanical computers) were given this name because they performed the work that had previously been assigned to people. "Computer" was originally a job title: it was used to describe those human beings (predominantly women) whose job it was to perform the repetitive calculations required to compute such things as navigational tables, tide charts, and planetary positions for astronomical almanacs."

This argument can go 20 different directions... but simply put, you original point is wrong, I am just attempting to finally make it click in your head of what I am saying.

And a computer is a newer aid for mathematical computations, so what is your point. An Abacus doesn't aid the memory, it actually DOES THE CALCULATIONS, how many times do I have to say that to get it through. Damn man! You really need to go understand how an abacus works before you continue arguing. Your view of how an abacus works only makes the points you are trying to make seem ridiculous.

Also, at no point have you proven me wrong, you have only attempted unsuccessfully to defend your position. And done a poor job of that, from what I have seen.

You are sure he knows what he is talking about, why because he has a piece of paper to show so. Alright, my point in all... humans are stupid and listen to those that are above us... guess that is why this country is shot to shit... because people are like, oh he has a degree he must be right...

did I ever once use my job as an creditable proof of my ability? I have not once mentioned my job title, I have even asked my friends, who are computer engineers, have computer science degrees ect ect, one working for Northrop Grumman, one working on Bittorrent, I have talked to plenty of people about this....


and again, I have out performed college grads... really a college degree shows you are good at that which you excelled at, I doubt there is a degree on the history of computers, nor was it more then a class long discussion. I don't care who the fuck you are, I will argue with anyone who I feel is inaccurate, and especially people who throw their degree on the table as defense. Trust me college education means nothing aside from a job in this world, I have met plenty of morons who have degrees that I have outperformed in my life... it means nothing in regards to logic, a debate, any form of attemptive argument.

How can you keep thinking your right when I have proven you wrong several times over. Also your the one that brought your friend into this flaunting his degree, And I took no stock in it. Now your saying that I was right, and degrees mean nothing. Please make up your mind because you are confusing the hell out of me

 

[Merlyn]

your defense though is not accurate, you can state it over and over and over again you are INCORRECT in your assumption, that is how simple it is... everyone I have talked to laughs at your defense, as you have none. I have no clue what this device is but my friend wanted me to ask you 2 simple questions...

"ask him if it is the abacus doing the computation, or the human brain"

obviously, you think the abacus does... but another

oh this was a statement...

"tell him it does not pass the Turing machine test"
"the abacus might count as early RAM"
"computers can continue to function without human input"

then I defended your argument to him, of what you have basically said, and he started to laugh and said he had to get back to work... I am sorry but no one that I have spoken to agrees with you...

pmohr, my friend who knows way more then most anyone I know in regards to computers, and another computer engineer. I am sorry buddy, but I don't see anyone agreeing, and it isn't like I start the conversation off against you, I simply asked my friend...

(11:14:51 AM) Merlyn: You there?
(11:14:51 AM) Ken Breeman <AUTO-REPLY> : Working at home. Will check in regularly.
(11:16:21 AM) Ken Breeman: sup?
(11:16:28 AM) Merlyn: is an abacus a computer
(11:16:44 AM) Merlyn: and if you were to agree an abacus was a computer, would you not also be agreeing that a piece of paper is a computer
(11:16:51 AM) Ken Breeman: lol
(11:17:03 AM) Ken Breeman: an abacus is a counting assistance device

simply put I am done arguing, we are getting no where but making bigger asses out of both of us, you believe what you want, I will what I, but you will not be swayed and neither will I...

 

[SupraMario]

I will agree with you that college is a business, but you do learn things in higher lvl courses that most wanna-be's haven't even heard about.
BTW who the hell is Ken Breeman?

 

[Merlyn]

hes a friend of mine, the one right now working on bittorrent. Pretty cool guy, he takes computer nerd to car award any day... he is building an electric civic... going to be pushing 1000+hp in like 3 seconds or something, i don't know... he is really out there, but hella smart.

 

[Dirgle]

your defense though is not accurate, you can state it over and over and over again you are INCORRECT in your assumption, that is how simple it is... everyone I have talked to laughs at your defense, as you have none. I have no clue what this device is but my friend wanted me to ask you 2 simple questions...

"ask him if it is the abacus doing the computation, or the human brain"

obviously, you think the abacus does... but another

oh this was a statement...

"tell him it does not pass the Turing machine test"
"the abacus might count as early RAM"
"computers can continue to function without human input"

then I defended your argument to him, of what you have basically said, and he started to laugh and said he had to get back to work... I am sorry but no one that I have spoken to agrees with you...

pmohr, my friend who knows way more then most anyone I know in regards to computers, and another computer engineer. I am sorry buddy, but I don't see anyone agreeing, and it isn't like I start the conversation off against you, I simply asked my friend...

(11:14:51 AM) Merlyn: You there?
(11:14:51 AM) Ken Breeman <AUTO-REPLY> : Working at home. Will check in regularly.
(11:16:21 AM) Ken Breeman: sup?
(11:16:28 AM) Merlyn: is an abacus a computer
(11:16:44 AM) Merlyn: and if you were to agree an abacus was a computer, would you not also be agreeing that a piece of paper is a computer
(11:16:51 AM) Ken Breeman: lol
(11:17:03 AM) Ken Breeman: an abacus is a counting assistance device

simply put I am done arguing, we are getting no where but making bigger asses out of both of us, you believe what you want, I will what I, but you will not be swayed and neither will I...

Lol the turning machine test, ha, even modern day computers cannot pass the turning machine test. There is a $10,000 prize for anybody who can.

Modern day computers would never function in the first place without human input. However, can a modern computer keep running after that point. Yes. Why because it was designed to. Can a abacus? No. Why, because it was not designed to. No real reason for it to. It was designed to do math calculations, and it does that very well, even in this day and age. You seem to think that a computer has to do these big grandiose things, but that is not true. Simple things like adding and subtracting are still considered computing.

You keep saying that my statements are inaccurate, but everything I have said has been backed up with proof, where as you keep consulting so called experts. You keep saying my assumptions are incorrect like you are have already established that I am, however I have countered every single one of your arguments.

I do agree with you one one point, this discussion has run it's course, and now we are just going in circles. Neither of us will agree, so further debate is useless. Like you, I am done. Others can read this and decide for themselfs.

.....lol turning test, yeah great argument.

 

[Merlyn]

um... the turing test is to determine AI, the turing machine test is to determine if something can compute... and I stated, can an abacus pass the turing machine test

but again... just trying to correct you
and I know I defended dictionaries were stupid but...

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-216021/computer

History of computing > Early history > Computer precursors > The abacus

The earliest known calculating device is probably the abacus.

compute == calculate but
calculate != compute

"Both the abacus and the counting board are mechanical aids used for counting; they are not calculators in the sense we use the word today. The person operating the abacus performs calculations in their head and uses the abacus as a physical aid to keep track of the sums, the carrys, etc."

words change over time... I think that right there let both of finish this argument winning.. so yea, it is done

 

[JMDigital]

I had the best time reading this thread.!

I do agree that an Abacus is not a computer.. here is a short decription I found

The abacus was an early aid for mathematical computations. Its only value is that it aids the memory of the human performing the calculation. A skilled abacus operator can work on addition and subtraction problems at the speed of a person equipped with a hand calculator (multiplication and division are slower). The abacus is often wrongly attributed to China. In fact, the oldest surviving abacus was used in 300 B.C. by the Babylonians. The abacus is still in use today, principally in the far east. A modern abacus consists of rings that slide over rods, but the older one pictured below dates from the time when pebbles were used for counting (the word "calculus" comes from the Latin word for pebble).

 

[Merlyn]

I am glad you had fun reading it... even though we are arguing, you do learn quite a lot by reading this about computers, their function, and just how they are designed ect... just for some of the things used... to better understand it if you care
when I say something like a == b, that is basically asumming that a is b, a = b is setting a to b, and a != b is basically saying, a is not b... != does not equal

 

[Dirgle]

Fine I concede, JMDigital is right, an Abacus is not a computer, he wins.

But I still defiantly stand by the fact that my E6B is a computer.:evil2:

 

[JMDigital]

There is nothing wrong with the arguing. As long as it stays relevant to the conversation. I love my supra and I try and read all I can to learn but sometimes Its nice to read about another subject...

 

[JMDigital]

Fine I concede, JMDigital is right, an Abacus is not a computer, he wins.

But I still defiantly stand by the fact that my E6B is a computer.:evil2:

I beleive you guys know ALOT more then I do about this subject, I am just a quick google junkie. So the E6B was my next google...

I did a quick google on the E6B and found this cool emulator.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/e6bcalc.html

I will agree that the E6B is a computer. It is even called a computer on that emulator page.

QUOTE FROM THE PAGE
"This calculator requires the use of Javascript enabled and capable browsers. It is to emulate some of the capabilities of the popular E6B flight computer."

 

[Merlyn]

I believe it is a computer as well... I also think my hamster might be turning to a computer

 

[Dirgle]

Well strap the E6B to the side of his wheel and see what kind of stuff he comes up with.

 

[SupraMario]

I had the best time reading this thread.!

I do agree that an Abacus is not a computer.. here is a short decription I found

The abacus was an early aid for mathematical computations. Its only value is that it aids the memory of the human performing the calculation. A skilled abacus operator can work on addition and subtraction problems at the speed of a person equipped with a hand calculator (multiplication and division are slower). The abacus is often wrongly attributed to China. In fact, the oldest surviving abacus was used in 300 B.C. by the Babylonians. The abacus is still in use today, principally in the far east. A modern abacus consists of rings that slide over rods, but the older one pictured below dates from the time when pebbles were used for counting (the word "calculus" comes from the Latin word for pebble).

Wait wait... go back and read it.

A modern day computer, STILL requires a human input. AKA an Abacus is a COMPUTER.
All that machine is doing next to you is mathematical calculations, nothing more nothing less, just cause it shows up on the screen all pretty looking doesn't mean thats not what its core is.

 

[Merlyn]

actually... the "core" of a computer runs off of trues and falses, switching 1 or 0... that is not at all calculating, that is deciding what is true and what is false...

 

[SupraDerk]

ok... and if I have a piece of paper and a pencil, and I draw 5 tally marks and erase 3... it shows I have 2... you are not proving to me anything, hell an abacus can be made with simply rocks on the ground... your defense of the the abacus showing you something is completely ignorant, it shows you nothing, your act of moving pieces shows you something. Just as a piece of paper and pencil would if you drew tally marks on it and erased a certain amount.

Simply put if you are calling an abacus a computer, so is a piece of paper, if you are saying a piece of paper is not, have fun arguing with yourself, or finally agreeing with one, one way or another, you are in denial of either what a computer is, or that a != a... when in reality it does... sorry, but I have backed you into a corner, you may deny being there, but simply put, you are just arguing that an abacus is a computer, but that an abacus is not a computer, you are being a hypocrite to say an abacus is a computer but not a pencil and paper, when in reality I CAN DRAW AN ABACUS ON A PIECE OF PAPER AND TAKE ABOUT SOLVING THAT WAY.. either way, have fun, because simply, we debated, we argued... I have won, Checkmate... sorry to say buddy, but the only way out is to either call a piece of paper a computer, or to say that you were wrong an an abacus is not a computer. I was in the debate "club" in highschool, yea it soundeds pretty gay, but I did learn something, when a person cares to make a definition so open as yours, as to accept almost everything, and you fill that definition with something that obviously is not that definition, but the definition fits it... the person has no where to go. I have won countless debates over my years, most noble people admit defeat, but I guess you are going to argue a == a but != a... have fun with that buddy.

/argument

Merlyn 1
Superderk 1 (in denial) 0 (out of denial)

simply put, a debate does not determine who is right or wrong, it determines who makes the better arguments, and who puts the other person in a position they can't back themselves out of, and to say a dictionary is the way to go... buttylicious is in the dictionary, I am sorry, but they don't always chose the best ways of definiting things...

You make terrible arguments and are not worth the effort on my part anymore. Whether or not you believe me has no impact on my life. Trying to get you to understand a concept is like... well it's like telling Sneakers O'toole to take his sneakers off.

sorry, but I have backed you into a corner

Funniest statement of the year right there... pure comedy.

 

[SupraMario]

actually... the "core" of a computer runs off of trues and falses, switching 1 or 0... that is not at all calculating, that is deciding what is true and what is false...

:nono: what school did you go to? Do you even know how binary works?

 

[SupraDerk]

:nono: what school did you go to? Do you even know how binary works?

lol, I had written up a comment on that too and deemed it not worth it

 

[Merlyn]

:nono: what school did you go to? Do you even know how binary works?

um... because I used 1 and 0... does not mean I was referring to binary. on and off, 1 and 0, true and false... they are all the basis of a computer... just like in our cars... pulsing signals, ect ect... to get a voltage or not... true or false... it is how our cars communicate...

every computer language uses true / false for all of its tasks

if, then, else, for, while...

if this is true, then do this, else do this... for this == this, do this till this = that, while this == that or while this contains information)

cut it out already, for christ sake, I dropped the main argument 4 posts back, I was just stating, a computer does not at its core do math... it simply turns switches on or off IT MUST BE TOUGHT HOW TO DO MATHEMATICS BY THE HUMAN... at its core, a computer is a bunch of true false statements... that then perform tasks.. christ... grow up, I am 20 years old and know when to shut up... I agreed it was over, and you bring posts from 2 pages ago back... it is over

 

[SupraMario]

lol, I had written up a comment on that too and deemed it not worth it

I'm going to tell you right now derk. Those classes in physics, and calc. trig......all worthless.