Wrap your mind around this.

[Dirgle]

Well since we are back on this again. First unless I missed something we never said a piece of paper was a computer. Second AND and OR and NAND and NOR gates are components of solid state transistors. Solid state transistors are parts of the modern computer that allows it to preform it's task. They are a necessity of binary calculations. An Abacus preforms decimal calculations. So essentially your saying if a device cant preform binary calculations it is not a computer. What about hex, octal, and others. And for him calling us fools I know several large company's that would probably call him that. I know when I worked for Toshiba that they didn't put much stock into individuals that can from Tech schools and the like. They said that their educations were poor and incomplete. So I would be careful who he goes around calling fools.

 

[Dirgle]

While were on it. This is my E6B flight computer. Ask any pilot and he will recognize it. It's not digital, if you shake it it will probably loose its place. But it is still considered a computer, and has been for longer than your AND and OR gates have been around.

 

[Merlyn]

He might also have some high name companies out there and some government offices to back up his ability, simply we can shoot degrees, we can shoot companies people have worked for... we put our points on the table, I just don't think you can call a computer what you are, you are twist a definition to better suit yourself, and your answer, and really, key terms down to it, you have supplied no proof of your argument, I found it funny what he said so I posted it... simple as that, hell, people call things the wrong names all the time, does not mean they are proper in there definition.

 

[drunk_medic]

While were on it. This is my E6B flight computer. Ask any pilot and he will recognize it. It's not digital, if you shake it it will probably loose its place. But it is still considered a computer, and has been for longer than your AND and OR gates have been around.

Military nomenclature does not always give an accurate representation. I worked for a few months in my old maintenance unit's support section, and had to deal with all of their parts and messed up names.

 

[Dirgle]

He might also have some high name companies out there and some government offices to back up his ability, simply we can shoot degrees, we can shoot companies people have worked for... we put our points on the table, I just don't think you can call a computer what you are, you are twist a definition to better suit yourself, and your answer, and really, key terms down to it, you have supplied no proof of your argument, I found it funny what he said so I posted it... simple as that, hell, people call things the wrong names all the time, does not mean they are proper in there definition.

As far as your friend goes I would like to see this list of company's, because I can promise you it is short.

Ok first I think I have made a pretty good go at my point. And some how my twisted definition is accepted by many people, including Merriam-Webster, Jeppesen, many computer science courses. I'd say that the Flight Computer is a pretty good piece of proof, and in that instance I have supplied more evidence than you have. So please, where is your evidence? I don't see how it could be an improper definition when Merriam-Webster defines it as such.

And for drunk_medic.

Huh? I assume you misinterpreted E6B as EA6B. The E6B Flight Computer is provided by Jeppesen, a civilian company dealing with the civilian flying sector. I'm not sure where military comes into it.

 

[SupraDerk]

Not to start a mass argument again, but I wanted to get my sisters boyfriends opinion (Virgina Tech Graduate in Computer Engineering)

(11:00:14 PM) Merlyn: would you consider an abacus a computer
(11:00:24 PM) Mike: no, its a calculator though
(11:00:55 PM) Mike: there are no logic gates
(11:01:12 PM) Merlyn: explain?
(11:01:24 PM) Merlyn: you have a degree in what again?
(11:01:27 PM) Mike: a computer is a complex set of logic gates
(11:01:31 PM) Mike: computer engineering
(11:02:03 PM) Mike: so at a minimum, a computer requires logic gates
(11:02:13 PM) Mike: AND and OR
(11:03:14 PM) Mike: an abacus doesn't store information any more than paper does
(11:03:23 PM) Mike: in fact, less. if you shook it, its gone

(11:03:34 PM) Mike: then you're dealing with fools, abandon hope
(11:03:36 PM) Merlyn: in the sens of a computer
(11:03:42 PM) Merlyn: they are computer engineers
(11:03:54 PM) Merlyn: atleast 1 is
(11:04:01 PM) Mike: obviously not from an acredited university of any stature
(11:03:23 PM) Mike: in fact, less. if you shook it, its gone
(11:05:39 PM) Mike: in the barest sense, an abacus is an adder and computers depend on adding
(11:06:15 PM) Mike: but...a computer is automated and use adding to do much more than basic arithmetic

Obviously your friend knows us well in order to deduce that we're fools because we're defining more than just a digital computer. "Get bent Helemt."

(11:03:25 PM) Merlyn: yes, but they argued paper was a computer as well

You're an idiot. You were the one arguing this point.

He might also have some high name companies out there and some government offices to back up his ability, simply we can shoot degrees, we can shoot companies people have worked for... we put our points on the table, I just don't think you can call a computer what you are, you are twist a definition to better suit yourself, and your answer, and really, key terms down to it, you have supplied no proof of your argument, I found it funny what he said so I posted it... simple as that, hell, people call things the wrong names all the time, does not mean they are proper in there definition.

lol whatever dude.

 

[SupraDerk]

While were on it. This is my E6B flight computer. Ask any pilot and he will recognize it. It's not digital, if you shake it it will probably loose its place. But it is still considered a computer, and has been for longer than your AND and OR gates have been around.

picture[/QUOTE]


And there's another example of a non-digital computer... THANK YOU!! While we see eye to eye on this subject, this kid Merlyn apparently can't seem to fathom the idea... apparently it's too complex.


But anyways I'm done with this thread. WoOt

 

[Yellow 13]

WHAT IS THIS DIGITAL YOU SPEAK OF?!

 

[Merlyn]

The thing is SupraDerk... without saying it you have to be arguing paper is a computer because it can do everything in regards to an abacus and even more... so don't sit here and tell me you are calling an abacus a computer and not a piece of paper and pencil, as under your definition, paper can do it as well... so yea you are calling it a computer.

I can see where you are coming from, it is not complex at all, but you are arguing a point just to argue, you have no logic at all behind your statements, you are saying an abacus can store information, is a tool to help compute

but that is what a piece of paper and a pencil is... you use it all the time in math class, just like a calculator is used in math class, just like an abacus is used to add, subject, multiply and divide... I am not making you look like an moron, you are stating that any device used to store information, compute, and help in the processing of information is a computer..


well I know I used paper and pencil more then a calculator in math classes, and well, a calculator and an abacus are both computers, then by logic and the way the world is... without saying it outright, you are agreeing paper and pencil combined are a computer... I am sorry but go argue with yourself, you can't follow the definition only SOMETIMES, if you believe the definition is what you say it is, then you are saying paper and pencil is a computer... maybe you should rethink your logic, but that is what you are saying

I am not the only person saying this, I have just about asked all my friends, simply

"If you were to agree an abacus is a computer because it can store information, help a human compute and process that information, under that same definition, wouldn't a piece of paper and a pencil hold the same ability, and even more, thus making it a computer"

for your definition, if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck...

 

[Yellow 13]

what if someone made a computer out of paper? Wrap your mind around that.

...Or someone made a computer completely from abacuses.


Now go wipe your brains off the ceiling.

 

[SupraDerk]

The thing is SupraDerk... without saying it you have to be arguing paper is a computer because it can do everything in regards to an abacus and even more... so don't sit here and tell me you are calling an abacus a computer and not a piece of paper and pencil, as under your definition, paper can do it as well... so yea you are calling it a computer.

I can see where you are coming from, it is not complex at all, but you are arguing a point just to argue, you have no logic at all behind your statements, you are saying an abacus can store information, is a tool to help compute

but that is what a piece of paper and a pencil is... you use it all the time in math class, just like a calculator is used in math class, just like an abacus is used to add, subject, multiply and divide... I am not making you look like an moron, you are stating that any device used to store information, compute, and help in the processing of information is a computer..


well I know I used paper and pencil more then a calculator in math classes, and well, a calculator and an abacus are both computers, then by logic and the way the world is... without saying it outright, you are agreeing paper and pencil combined are a computer... I am sorry but go argue with yourself, you can't follow the definition only SOMETIMES, if you believe the definition is what you say it is, then you are saying paper and pencil is a computer... maybe you should rethink your logic, but that is what you are saying

I am not the only person saying this, I have just about asked all my friends, simply

"If you were to agree an abacus is a computer because it can store information, help a human compute and process that information, under that same definition, wouldn't a piece of paper and a pencil hold the same ability, and even more, thus making it a computer"

for your definition, if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck...

You are truly dumb. A piece of paper is not a computer... end of story. The paper does absolutely nothing with what you put on it, it is merely just a medium you are writing math you're doing in your head on. The abacus will allow you to do math through it's use and give you a result based off of how you manipulate it. If I move five "ones" pieces up, and take away 3... it'll show me me the result is "2"

Read up on how it works (oh and take note of the title of that slide)
http://lecture.eingang.org/abacus.html


You seem to be the one arguing for the sake of arguing

I am not making you look like an moron,

No, I wouldn't say that you were

 

[Merlyn]

ok... and if I have a piece of paper and a pencil, and I draw 5 tally marks and erase 3... it shows I have 2... you are not proving to me anything, hell an abacus can be made with simply rocks on the ground... your defense of the the abacus showing you something is completely ignorant, it shows you nothing, your act of moving pieces shows you something. Just as a piece of paper and pencil would if you drew tally marks on it and erased a certain amount.

Simply put if you are calling an abacus a computer, so is a piece of paper, if you are saying a piece of paper is not, have fun arguing with yourself, or finally agreeing with one, one way or another, you are in denial of either what a computer is, or that a != a... when in reality it does... sorry, but I have backed you into a corner, you may deny being there, but simply put, you are just arguing that an abacus is a computer, but that an abacus is not a computer, you are being a hypocrite to say an abacus is a computer but not a pencil and paper, when in reality I CAN DRAW AN ABACUS ON A PIECE OF PAPER AND TAKE ABOUT SOLVING THAT WAY.. either way, have fun, because simply, we debated, we argued... I have won, Checkmate... sorry to say buddy, but the only way out is to either call a piece of paper a computer, or to say that you were wrong an an abacus is not a computer. I was in the debate "club" in highschool, yea it soundeds pretty gay, but I did learn something, when a person cares to make a definition so open as yours, as to accept almost everything, and you fill that definition with something that obviously is not that definition, but the definition fits it... the person has no where to go. I have won countless debates over my years, most noble people admit defeat, but I guess you are going to argue a == a but != a... have fun with that buddy.

/argument

Merlyn 1
Superderk 1 (in denial) 0 (out of denial)

simply put, a debate does not determine who is right or wrong, it determines who makes the better arguments, and who puts the other person in a position they can't back themselves out of, and to say a dictionary is the way to go... buttylicious is in the dictionary, I am sorry, but they don't always chose the best ways of definiting things...

 

[Dirgle]

As frustrating as this situation is the name calling between you two is solving nothing

A piece of paper only stores data, it does not assist in any way in manipulating said data. That part of the process is entirely in the individual writing on the papers. Paper is only a storage medium. An Abacus on the other hand does manipulate data you enter in to it. The data manipulation happens at the moment you enter it in. Some people have to actually use an abacus to actually understand how this works. I have and I do.

 

[Merlyn]

As frustrating as this situation is the name calling between you two is solving nothing

A piece of paper only stores data, it does not assist in any way in manipulating said data. That part of the process is entirely in the individual writing on the papers. Paper is only a storage medium. An Abacus on the other hand does manipulate data you enter in to it. The data manipulation happens at the moment you enter it in. Some people have to actually use an abacus to actually understand how this works. I have and I do.

Yes a piece of paper does, you go solve countless equations in your head without the means of paper, the thing is... a piece of paper can just as easily perform the tasks of an abacus, as long as you can erase and redraw...

I am not agreeing that a piece of paper is a computer, I am saying under your idea of what a computer is... you have left the door so open to possibilities that a piece of paper falls under your theory of a computer... maybe the dictionaries have it, but I can tell you mass agreement does not always mean it is right, hell look at Hitler he sure had a backing at first, he was no good at all... follow your books, ect... I have learned to use my own brain in learning and understanding, not go based off the book that I read... I will not change your agreement, but I can assure you if we had judges watching this argument, I would come out on top, as I have over come your arguments, and stuck you in a position where you have to admit defeat, continue to deny, or continue a lost argument, I was not here for the purpose of proving you wrong, I was here for the purpose of winning, and I have succeeded in my doing, as I shall consider that 1 win for me, whether you are right to high mighty computer engineers their is no way you can continue to argue in my eyes, and well reality is as you perceive it and I believe anyone who has read all of this besides us 4, would say... simply put I only followed your definition, and you by that a piece of paper and pencil is able to help and aid in the process of computing, storing information, and calculating... by the help of man, it can do all that, and if you want to say no, I will draw an abacus on it, and do the work that way.. simply put I can do a lot more computing then an abacus... that is how I learned my multiplication, by the means of paper, and the 12 x 12 diagram... that was an aid to help me compute information and understand multiplication

 

[Dirgle]

ok... and if I have a piece of paper and a pencil, and I draw 5 tally marks and erase 3... it shows I have 2... you are not proving to me anything, hell an abacus can be made with simply rocks on the ground... your defense of the the abacus showing you something is completely ignorant, it shows you nothing, your act of moving pieces shows you something. Just as a piece of paper and pencil would if you drew tally marks on it and erased a certain amount.

Simply put if you are calling an abacus a computer, so is a piece of paper, if you are saying a piece of paper is not, have fun arguing with yourself, or finally agreeing with one, one way or another, you are in denial of either what a computer is, or that a != a... when in reality it does... sorry, but I have backed you into a corner, you may deny being there, but simply put, you are just arguing that an abacus is a computer, but that an abacus is not a computer, you are being a hypocrite to say an abacus is a computer but not a pencil and paper, when in reality I CAN DRAW AN ABACUS ON A PIECE OF PAPER AND TAKE ABOUT SOLVING THAT WAY.. either way, have fun, because simply, we debated, we argued... I have won, Checkmate... sorry to say buddy, but the only way out is to either call a piece of paper an abacus, or to say that you were wrong an an abacus is not a computer. I was in the debate "club" in highschool, yea it soundeds pretty gay, but I did learn something, when a person cares to make a definition so open as yours, as to accept almost everything, and you fill that definition with something that obviously is not that definition, but the definition fits it... the person has no where to go. I have won countless debates over my years, most noble people admit defeat, but I guess you are going to argue a == a but != a... have fun with that buddy.

/argument

Merlyn 1
Superderk 1 (in denial) 0 (out of denial)

simply put, a debate does not determine who is right or wrong, it determines who makes the better arguments, and who puts the other person in a position they can't back themselves out of, and to say a dictionary is the way to go... buttylicious is in the dictionary, I am sorry, but they don't always chose the best ways of definition things...

Interesting, first you quote from wikipedia, which is not renowned for it accuracy. And then you say an accredited dictionary is not accurate. Interesting.:3d_frown:

Second, you probably think that all you do is slide beads around to represent numbers, but that is only part of how an abacus works. The true power of the abacus comes from how the beads line up when you move them. So they must all be of the same size and shape, rocks won't work here. The way in which they line up is what gives the abacus it's calculating ability.

Yes a piece of paper does, you go solve countless equations in your head without the means of paper, the thing is... a piece of paper can just as easily perform the tasks of an abacus, as long as you can erase and redraw...

Sigh, you still don't understand how an abacus works. With the paper the actual calculations are done by THE PERSON. With an abacus the actual calculations are done by the ABACUS!

Strange how you're trying to argue about something that you don't even understand. It seems you the one who is in denial, because you keep trying to come at my original point from different angles. My original point still stands where as your argument keep changing.

 

[Piratetip]

Strange how often Hitler tends to comes into a thread.
We have just hit Godwin's Law, this thread is officially too long.

 

[SupraMario]

lol @ this thread. Derk I have no idea why he is arguing with you. Saying a degree means jack, is like telling a structural engineer that a brick layer could design the same buildings.
I'm a semester or 2 away from a comp. sci degree, and I have people argue with me all the time. *sigh*

BTW Merlyn, working at geek squad doesn't mean you know wtf your talking about, hence my reference to McDonald's. Your arguing with a comp. engineer, I'm sure he knows wtf he is talking about. O and try submitting a paper with Wikipedia as a cited and credited source.

No offense but you might wanna read up....just a tad.

 

[Merlyn]

"The abacus was an early aid for mathematical computations. Its only value is that it aids the memory of the human performing the calculation."

as would a piece of paper and an pencil...

not to throw the argument a whole another way... and I don't know why I continue, but basically...

"The first computers were people! That is, electronic computers (and the earlier mechanical computers) were given this name because they performed the work that had previously been assigned to people. "Computer" was originally a job title: it was used to describe those human beings (predominantly women) whose job it was to perform the repetitive calculations required to compute such things as navigational tables, tide charts, and planetary positions for astronomical almanacs."

This argument can go 20 different directions... but simply put, you original point is wrong, I am just attempting to finally make it click in your head of what I am saying.

 

[Merlyn]

lol @ this thread. Derk I have no idea why he is arguing with you. Saying a degree means jack, is like telling a structural engineer that a brick layer could design the same buildings.
I'm a semester or 2 away from a comp. sci degree, and I have people argue with me all the time. *sigh*

BTW Merlyn, working at geek squad doesn't mean you know wtf your talking about, hence my reference to McDonald's. Your arguing with a comp. engineer, I'm sure he knows wtf he is talking about. O and try submitting a paper with Wikipedia as a cited and credited source.

No offense but you might wanna read up....just a tad.

You are sure he knows what he is talking about, why because he has a piece of paper to show so. Alright, my point in all... humans are stupid and listen to those that are above us... guess that is why this country is shot to shit... because people are like, oh he has a degree he must be right...

did I ever once use my job as an creditable proof of my ability? I have not once mentioned my job title, I have even asked my friends, who are computer engineers, have computer science degrees ect ect, one working for Northrop Grumman, one working on Bittorrent, I have talked to plenty of people about this....


and again, I have out performed college grads... really a college degree shows you are good at that which you excelled at, I doubt there is a degree on the history of computers, nor was it more then a class long discussion. I don't care who the fuck you are, I will argue with anyone who I feel is inaccurate, and especially people who throw their degree on the table as defense. Trust me college education means nothing aside from a job in this world, I have met plenty of morons who have degrees that I have outperformed in my life... it means nothing in regards to logic, a debate, any form of attemptive argument.

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

I see lots of words.
Talking about semantics of things no one cares about...