Joel W. said:
That's not true Joel...I'm still in the reserves and I've questioned many, many orders/directives...still do to this day. Never been passed over for promotion.
Why i am seriously considering...
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That's not true Joel...I'm still in the reserves and I've questioned many, many orders/directives...still do to this day. Never been passed over for promotion.
Please explain?
What kind of orders are ok to question?
How do you go about doing it so as not be be frowned apon?
How can you question an order without having all the facts to help you decide?
What kind of orders are ok to question?
How do you go about doing it so as not be be frowned apon?
How can you question an order without having all the facts to help you decide?
Joel W. said:
I explained it. You can question any order, you just need to know the appropriate way of asking your questions....
Joel W. said:
Any order. You need to have a valid reason, not that I "don't feel like it" or "that's too hard to do".
Joel W. said:
With respect...never make it personal.
Joel W. said:
You better have your ducks in a row...based on facts. Make no mistake Joel, the military does not do things based on comfort or emotion. You have to have the best info possible to make a decision where lives may be lost. A decision can be made and then new info surfaces that makes a difference...if we did not question and forward that info, the commander cannot make the best decision.
This is a great point..I agree those are not good reasons.jdub said:
This should go without saying. I meant more like how is it done, Do you bypass the chain of command or confront your next in line directly?
And if the facts are not given to you before your actually given the order and you are there (in battle) to discover that "new information" for your self.
How would you know it is new??
Joel, where are you going with this? Why do I have a feeling that this info is being dug up for political purposes?Joel W. said:
Joel W. said:
That depends...I always put it to "does it really matter" test. Is the decision bad or is it just not the way I would do it? If it's the latter...I express my opinion and if it doesn't change the commander's mind, I salute smartly and follow his directive to the letter.
If it's a bad decision...different story. I use the chain of command...I go to my immediate superior's boss. This is where you better have good, factual info to make your case. Sometimes the next guy up will let the order stand and let the guy that made it see the effect. In the case of where it affects lives though, I've never seen a bad decision allowed to stand.
We also have the Inspector General (IG) system. I've seen the entire local organization go down a path that was not going to benefit the organization, but benefit the individuals involved. In this case, an IG complaint is called for...but, again, you better have the facts straight.
Joel W. said:
In combat, info flows constantly. The commander is normally a very competent, experienced officer...his job (and training) is to make good, short notice decisions. If he can't, he won't be commander for long. We call combat the "fog of war"...many times you do not have complete info and do not have the time to delay. You gather what info available and make the call...as new info becomes available, you adjust. That's why the commanders are in the position.
The military has a huge information flow network from many sources. Some decisions can be made with the luxury of time...you can consult your Jr Officer's and NCO's. Other decisions have to be made now...right now. This is where experience comes in from the NCO ranks all the way up the chain.
Jdub: I agree with you.. I am glad your a thinking soldier.
Your commanders are smart, The guys they take their orders and info from (polititians) may not be.
If you think politics and the military are seperate competely, that is fine.
I made my points very clearly..
Your commanders are smart, The guys they take their orders and info from (polititians) may not be.
rakkasan said:
If you think politics and the military are seperate competely, that is fine.
I made my points very clearly..
Joel W. said:
No, you haven't made your point at all. What is the purpose of this fact finding expedition? I don't mind sharing my experiences, but I don't like being used for political purposes, which is what I fear you're doing. That would chap my ass a little considering that I asked you about your motives earlier.....
Joel W. said:
Joel - the military (at least in the US) is the ultimate extension of political will...the Commander in Chief is the President. He has military advisors that do just that...they actually do question the President's decisions to use the military. This is not something you will ever see on CNN.
But let me ask...what exactly is the point you are trying to make?
Joel W. said:
Yes - But even in Corporate Companies people follow orders...they just call them "memos" or "policy". The big difference is you can walk away from a corporate job...do that in the military and it's called AWOL or desertation.
The only thing is your statement sounds so black and white. It's really not that way...that's why I've been taking the time to explain it. Following orders is very important for the military to be able to do it's job...imagine if in a fire fight, the Sgt orders 3 of his guys to take out a machine gun nest and they refuse. Not good for the overall whole.
jdub said:
Basically, questioning planning is allowable during the planning phase, but not during the execution phase.
Rakkasan: I do not mean to be an ass chapper, Ct said we called him a communist and we did no such thing, I explained why, If you still don't like it. I am sorry.
Jdub: We are not in disagreement.
<leaves thread>
Jdub: We are not in disagreement.
<leaves thread>
rakkasan said:
Dead on! You can question during execution, but it's gotta be fast
As us Air Force types say "flexibility is the key to airpower"
Joel W. said:
So, you were digging up information to fight a little battle with CT? You put Jdub & me in the middle of your fight without explaining why. That's complete BS, and IMO, it strips you of any right you had of saying the Administration uses the military for their personal benefit. You just did it yourself.
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