Why i am seriously considering...

[jdub]

Joel - Perhaps it would help to understand how the military hierarchy works. I'll use the Army structure as an example since there are enlisted folks (NCO's) in charge down the food chain. Mark, if I get this wrong...correct me...Air Force officers are the ones doing the actual weapons employment, but this is how I understand it.

Brigade Commander - Colonel

Battalion Commander - Lt Colonel

Regiment Commander - Major

Company Commander - Captain

Platoon Commander - Lieutenant

Squad Leader - Sergeant


Lets assume the Brigade Commander issues an order to wipe out a village...kill every man, woman and child. Clearly an unlawful order...it would have to go through multiple layers of command. At any point, any of the officer's/NCO's in charge can raise the BS flag. Reporting an unlawful order does not have to follow the chain of command...there are safe guards in the hierarchy for this.

Lets assume the unlawful order originated further down...say at the Platoon level. In this case, any of the four Squad Leaders in the Platoon can report the unlawful order to the Company Commander.

No one in the chain is required to follow an unlawful order. All officers and NCOs are trained in what's lawful and what's not...the training is through...the system does work 99% of the time.

This is a simplistic view...it gets a lot more complicated for the gray areas and this is where you see the system break down. It's rare...unfortunately when it does, our media is all over it.

 

[Joel W.]

But for the typical "low man on the chain" the guys under the Sergent,who is actually fighting, does he get to choose?

If so, how much time does he have to think about it before he follows or refuses to follow an order??

How can he be expected to make an uninformed decision??

 

[jdub]

If the order is lawful...no he does not get to choose. The military hierarchy is not a democracy where each man has a vote The Squad MUST work as a team...orders to execute an objective MUST be followed to carry out their part of the overall plan. Sometimes the "big picture" is obsecure, but if the officer in charge is good, he will make sure the men all the way down to the Squad level understand why they need to meet this objective.

If the order is unlawful...different story. That order can be refused...period. If the Squad leader is psyco, any of the men in the squad can go to the Platoon Commander. If the Platoon Commander is part of the problem, bump it up to the Company Commander.

In actual combat it gets more complicated...not a lot of time. This is where the training is relied on. Like I said, this system works 99% of the time. You really have have seen it work to fully understand.

 

[Joel W.]

If the order is lawful...no he does not get to choose. The military hierarchy is not a democracy where each man has a vote

Thank you!!!

You always give me an honest answer.

 

[rakkasan]

Thank you!!!

You always give me an honest answer.

I think you are cherry picking your answers Joel.

Like I said, what does it matter? What point are you trying to prove? I'm starting to smell something that stinks.....

 

[rakkasan]

If the order is unlawful...different story. That order can be refused...period.

One point of contention. It's not like an unlawful order *can* be refused, it MUST be disobeyed. A soldier can not hid behind the lack of rank after committing a crime.

 

[Joel W.]

I think you are cherry picking your answers Joel.

Like I said, what does it matter? What point are you trying to prove? I'm starting to smell something that stinks.....

No cherry picking here Rakkasan..It is NOT a democracy in the military.

You follow orders. If that upsets you?

I am sorry..

 

[jdub]

You're welcome Joel...I would like to add something based on the lawful side of this discussion. A good officer will listen to his men...very, very often even the lowly Squad member has a very valid point. It's not like it was years ago when the men had absolutely no input.

I'll use myself as an example. I've had Lieutenant's and Captains say things to me that I would never have said...times have changed I listen, if it's valid then maybe a modification is justified. However, if it's not valid I still listen, but will stand by the decision. The Lieutenant or Captain might not be happy about it, but will follow the order to the letter. Basically there comes a time to "shut up and color". The military has to rely on this, otherwise objectives will not be met...in dealing with the chaos of warfare following orders is paramount.

 

[jdub]

One point of contention. It's not like an unlawful order *can* be refused, it MUST be disobeyed. A soldier can not hid behind the lack of rank after committing a crime.

Very true! Poor choice of words on my part...it is the responsibility of every soldier to refuse an unlawful order.

 

[Yellow 13]

Anybody else here play Battlefield 2?

When the commander issues orders it goes to the squad leader, then he chooses to issue those orders to his squad, who can then accept or deny the orders.

Very fun game.

 

[wingman]

Anybody else here play Battlefield 2?

When the commander issues orders it goes to the squad leader, then he chooses to issue those orders to his squad, who can then accept or deny the orders.

Very fun game.

....and then the squad ignores the order and continues about playing like it's halo or counterstrike or something. Not to mention your not going to be stripped of points if you disobey an order.

that game needs civilians though, it might make it a bit more interesting :naughty:

 

[jam4484]

My dad's family still lives in the netherlands and canada and we have traveled all over the world so I have been to many places. It is nice to visit different countries, but I can not see myself leaving my country or my family for that matter. Everyone that wants to leave do you want to only see your family once in a great while? I want to live close to my family because we get along very well. I will visit countries for the rest of my life, but I see myself living here for ever.

Jon

 

[rakkasan]

No cherry picking here Rakkasan..It is NOT a democracy in the military.

You follow orders. If that upsets you?

I am sorry..

Your comment gave me a weird feeling...

 

[rakkasan]

Brigade Commander - Colonel

Battalion Commander - Lt Colonel

Regiment Commander - Major <----- A Regiment is the same as a Brigade

Company Commander - Captain

Platoon Commander - Lieutenant

Squad Leader - Sergeant

Other than that, you nailed it. Not bad for a fly boy! :icon_razz

 

[Yellow 13]

....and then the squad ignores the order and continues about playing like it's halo or counterstrike or something.

Thats when the commander drops artillery on you and calls you the worst squad ever.

You do earn points for accomplishing orders. I know if a squad follows out an order you gave as the commander you earn a few points. Same goes for the squad.

 

[wingman]

Thats when the commander drops artillery on you and calls you the worst squad ever.

You do earn points for accomplishing orders. I know if a squad follows out an order you gave as the commander you earn a few points. Same goes for the squad.

what server do you play on? I didn't think teamwork existed in battlefield

 

[Yellow 13]

I played on Reefermaniacs back in the day but the server fell apart. Now Ive been going between "Rubberducky", "Ghostsofwar" and "Cant stop gaming"

Alot of people play squads in Cant stop gaming, but I havent been on in about a month. Ill probally start up again mid-september until Gears of war comes out.

 

[jdub]

Other than that, you nailed it. Not bad for a fly boy! :icon_razz

Whew Had to think back to my PME for that one.

I did get an experience that most of us "fly boy's" didn't get. I was put in charge of MacDill airfield...had 125 enlisted troops with 3 Senior MSgts running air Traffic control, base operations, and transient aircraft maintenance. At the time I went WTF! I want to fly jets! But, I did it and it turned out to be one of the best experiences I ever had...it taught me more than I would have ever learned about leading people anywhere else. And how important the enlisted troops are in making the "machine" run smoothly...I have a great respect for our NCO's.

 

[Joel W.]

Your comment gave me a weird feeling...

Again I am sorry, You are correct in the fact that you have a choice, The truth is, if you choose to question an order, you will either not be promoted up through the ranks or you will not be a soldier much longer.

 

[rakkasan]

The truth is, if you choose to question an order, you will either not be promoted up through the ranks or you will not be a soldier much longer.

Not true at all. Anything can be questioned, you just need to know the appropriate way of doing so.