Quote i got from machinist

[JoeC]

^^ Seriously. Those flamers who tried to ruin this thread should get a short BAN. Stop wrecking this forum!

Any ways.. Tony, you've driven, and rode in my car. My motor was done by dan hall, and assembled as a short block. I have over 5k miles on it and it's driven hard. No complaints man. It pulls way harder than the stock motor after balancing, and I couldn't be happier with how smooth it is. My bro is pulling his motor again and having Dan Hall go through it again and shot peen the rods, knife edge the crank, and do things correctly this time. Btw.. This means once u get ur car running.. I get to drive it. :evil2:

 

[sponsored1]

ahh i see.. so why is it that there are only 2 in the US? they look easy to replicate? no? im lost..:runaway:

There are way more then 2 out there. Its not even considered a custom plate by bhj. At least it wasnt when i got mine, but then again that was years ago. It may seem hard to find someone but their are plenty of people with them out there. Hell if i dont have a plate for a specific motor i build, i'll order it and just eat the cost so the customer can have a properly built engine.

 

[Doward]

Now that's the kind of shop the OP needs to find

Seriously, to the OP, that's a good price you've been quoted. I'd only ask if the surface of the block is done with a torque plate, and to what RA they can mill it

 

[buckshotglass]

This is what was done to my motor, and the costs involved.
I feel no money was ill spent. This will be a 650+ hp motor.
Check my build thread for pics. Yeah, the work was done by sponsored1.

Thermal Clean Block - 100
Bore Block - 90
Hone Block with plate - 110
Line Hone Block - 120
Wash Block - 40
Deck Block and lap- 100
Balance Crank - 120
Weight match rods - 30
Weight match Pistons - 30
Clean Head - 40
Chamber work - 240
Bowl port and plunge cut - 240
Runner Port Work - 300
Install guides and valve job - 300
Deck Head - 60
Assemble head w new seals - 80
Assemble Short Block 300

 

[mk3forme]

Well im pretty sure a plate wasnt used on mine. I hope it will be fine without it. Im not sure I understand completely what it does for you anyway?

 

[p5150]

The whole point of what im saying is comparing this to building a 7m with forged internals that is capable of CONSISTENTLY running 500+ hp. If you have a stock setup and dont plan on modifying the 7m block past 450-500 hp then the turboed GE isnt worth your time.

Just offhand... let's say you buy your magical 2JZ-GE for $400.

Don't bother doing what anyone with half a brain would do - crack that bitch open and replace *MINIMUM* mains/rods/rings/seals (not to mention measure out all specs)

A $400 dollar 2jzge isnt magical - you obviously havent looked for one very hard.

I did crack it open and measure everything - all components are PERFECTLY in spec and the cross-hatch is still visible on the walls. The motor had 70k miles on it. Why replace it all if there is nothing wrong with it? The rings are already mated to the cylinder walls and have been broken in. If I replaced the rings I would have to re-hone and that would take some material off the wall. Theres nothing wrong with the bearings either. Plus, all of the hardware measured perfectly in spec with the TSRM, and it is reusable.

$90 for a gasket kit

I've got an '88 Supra.

Does that 2JZ-GE bolt up to the '88 mounts?

No, but you can buy some BIC motor mounts for $175 or put in an 89 subframe for cheap from a local u-pull-it.

How am I mounting my CT26 to the 2JZ?

Well, if you are building a 7M with forged internals then im guessing that you probably arent going to bolt a ct26 back on it. If you AREN'T building a 7m w/forged internals then I guess you wouldn't need the 2j anyway because you have modest HP goals. Its a wash either way because for +500 hp on a 7m you are going to have to purchase an aftermarket turbo and manifold. They are the same cost for both engines....

Turbo oiling and coolant?
What about my exhaust?

Turbo oiling supply and drainage can be accomplished from 100-175 bucks for a nice oil line set. Most aftermarket turbos dont come with water coolant but you are going to have to adapt that for the 7m anyway...... So once again, its a wash because unless you are getting some bolt on like a SP61 for the MKIII, you will have to get oil lines ANYWAY.

Since I'm turboing a 2JZ, and it has a FFIM, how much is an intercooler?
Intercooler pipes?
Will my stock fuel lines bolt right up?
Throttle cable?

Well, the 2jzge DOESNT HAVE a FFIM. But I thought you would already know that. Regardless, $200 for an ebay intercooler setup IF you decide to go with a custom FFIM, and ffim intercoolers are easier to get than the same-side 7m style. Im not going to consider the cost of the IC or hardpipes because you could easily modify the stock 7M pipes to fit if you wanted to just get the engine running and drivable, and purchasing a set of hardpipes or intercooler, like a single turbo for 500+ hp, is something you would have to purchase for both engines anyway.

As for fuel lines we are, once again, back to the same question. Forged internals on your 7M? Yes? Why are you running a stock fuel system? Upgrades are required for both motors; its a wash.

Throttle cables are cheap and easy to come by. Which one you use would depend on the throttle body.

How am I controlling the 2JZ ECM wise?

Im so glad you asked that. Lets get a total cost of what we REALLY need to do a 2JZGE swap with the assumption that we are going 500+ hp BEFORE we purchase our ECU. Items that would be required for the 7M AND 2JZGE for this hp level are not included. They are a wash. Ive added some things that you didnt list:

$400 - Engine
$100 - Gasket Kit
$200 - Thick head gasket
$600 - 1JZ bell housing and flywheel (new)
$200 - for r154 (if you dont have one)
$175 - Motor mounts (IF pre-89)

$1675 - For a 2jz with FORGED PISTONS ***edit - the pistons arent forged they are pressure-cast aluminum just like the 2jzgtte****, STRONGER RODS, 1.5mm BIGGER VALVES and no oiling problems. Just look at the internals of a 2jz; it is a better-engineered engine.

$1400 for an AEM
$250 for a wideband O2

Now we are at $2950 to $3325 depending on if you have an R154 or a pre-89
Thats one of my points -

Let me put it this way - if it were that easy for the AVERAGE JOE, we'd be seeing a hell of a lot more JZ MKIIIs.

Well, most people on here arent "average joe" - they are very mechanically inclined. I assume that you are one of the more mechanically capable people because you are arguing with me about it. Am I wrong?

For the price of "properly" dropping a 2JZ into my MKIII, I'd have a... well, I'd damn near have Duane's 7M

BTW -

$1000 in machine work
$350 for forged pistons (Probe)
$100 for rings
$120 for MHG
$100 for ARP head studs
$100 for Clevite 77 Mains/Rods
$500 for Rods and rod bolts
$100 for gaskets
$100 for Main Studs
$150 for an oil pump
$100 for Oil Thermostat or adapter and lines



About $2k ***EDIT by p5150 a VERY CONSERVATIVE $2720*** for a bulletproof 7M? What am I missing here?

Uhm you are missing connecting rods, main studs, an oil pump and a gasket kit :stickpoke: but I added it for you. That will run you an additional $800 combined. And your head STILL wont flow as much so you better dump another $1k on it (minimum) for port and valve work, but I guess that isnt REQUIRED to get to the 500hp mark - it only makes it easier - so we wont count the $1k.

If anybody wants to argue about flow numbers look here:

Post 28 - http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2146246&highlight=flow#post2146246

Post 19 - http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366980&highlight=2jzge+flow



So when it comes down to it, we have a (more capable - dont forget that we didnt change the valves in the 7m yet) 600+ hp engine with an AEM for ~600 more than just the cost of building a 7MGTE.

Plus, if something happens with your support equipment that ruins your block (lean condition from FPR fail/ fuel injector fail/ poor tuning/ clogged fuel filter or injector/ running through a puddle of water and hydrolocking your engine (malloynx)/ over-revving on a patch of ice(figgie)/ over boosting due to a kinked wastegate line(a friend I know here in town)/ etc etc and I have seen or heard of all these things!!!!) you have a VERY CHEAP CORE SOURCE that you can drop in the car with a HEAD GASKET CHANGE.

Sure, this isnt worth it for everyone - but for those that say "500-600 hp is my goal", they would get there a lot faster for less money with more reliability if they would just go 2JZGE(T).

:blah:

 

[Doward]

Why am I spending $500 on rods that have already been shown to take 600+hp without breaking a sweat? Mike ran what... 24psi daily on his, and they didn't let go until he overboosting to somewhere past 36psi. That's stout, in my book.

Machine work included reconning the rods

$100 for gaskets? You need front oil seal, crank seal, rear main seal, and the cam seals.

More like $50. Toyota FIPG for all the rest.

Oil pump depends on the quality of the one pulled from the motor - I find it funny that you can 'reuse' 2JZ-GE parts that are still good, but not on the 7M? What's the reasoning behind that?

You can do an oil filter relocation setup, spend $50 on seals, spend $100 on main studs, and still come up for $1955 + tax/shipping/etc.

As for the turbo, 420+ hp has been done, on the little old upgraded CT26. On a stock bottom end. You can hit 400+ hp with very VERY little on the 7M.

If you're going for a 600+ hp setup, then you might be right - it's pretty much a wash. You're obsessed with the size of the valves in the JZ vs 7M head, and I'm telling you that a properly built induction/exhaust system, designed AROUND the head, will yield better results than just throwing money at the problem.

Aaron, if you happen to read this, can you snap a couple pics of the stock 2JZ pistons? I have doubts as to whether or not they are forged from the factory.

Either way, you admit you are looking at $3300+ to put a 2JZ-GE into my car, and turbo it. For $3300, I could have a 7M that would *destroy* that 2JZ-GE(T) in the 1320. Hell, for $3300, I could damn near BUY another MKIII, AND build a 7M to whoop up on your 2JZ-GE(T)

But hey, to each their own, right?

 

[p5150]

Why am I spending $500 on rods that have already been shown to take 600+hp without breaking a sweat? Mike ran what... 24psi daily on his, and they didn't let go until he overboosting to somewhere past 36psi. That's stout, in my book.

24psi on what turbo? You think stock rods are dependable at 600 hp?? You are nuts dude.

$100 for gaskets? You need front oil seal, crank seal, rear main seal, and the cam seals.

More like $50. Toyota FIPG for all the rest.

Ok, so you are going to FIPG in your injectors? how about your valve covers? Are you going to FIPG the seal on your CPS? How about your oil pump drive shaft? Valve cover gaskets are expensive. What about the rubber grommetts for the valve cover gaskets? I thought I was being pretty reasonable with a 100 dollar estimate for gaskets -as part of a gasket kit.

Have you ever rebuilt a 7m?

Oil pump depends on the quality of the one pulled from the motor - I find it funny that you can 'reuse' 2JZ-GE parts that are still good, but not on the 7M? What's the reasoning behind that?

You can re-use the 2jz hardware if it measures in spec- it tells you that right in the TSRM. 2j stock blocks have run well into the 600+ hp realm. If the shit measures within stock specs its fine. You cant re-use stock rod bolts or head bolts on a 7m. Not only that but you have to re-size the rods when you change the rod bolts. Not so on a 2j - If you have ever taken one apart you will know why.

Personally, I wouldnt have a problem re-using an oil pump out of a 7m if it measured within spec.... If i wasnt making a "built" motor. I think you will be hard pressed to find a person who will re-use an oil pump in that instance.

The whole point is the cost effectiveness.

You can do an oil filter relocation setup, spend $50 on seals, spend $100 on main studs, and still come up for $1955 + tax/shipping/etc.

So stock rods to 500-600 hp FTL? Sure there have been instances of 700 on a stock 7m shortblock? Didnt those guys in vegas do that a few years back? Did their motor last?

As for the turbo, 420+ hp has been done, on the little old upgraded CT26. On a stock bottom end. You can hit 400+ hp with very VERY little on the 7M.

You are right, you can. The stock block is a very good application for bolt on turbos that fit the CT manifold. The stock 7M is reliable if its well taken care of. Usually. That is if you dont run it over 500 hp too long.

Dude you are talking to me like I have never even driven my car with a 7M. Ive owned my Supra since 98 and got good use out of the 7M but now the 2j has become a cost-effective upgrade and im moving on.

If you're going for a 600+ hp setup, then you might be right - it's pretty much a wash. You're obsessed with the size of the valves in the JZ vs 7M head, and I'm telling you that a properly built induction/exhaust system, designed AROUND the head, will yield better results than just throwing money at the problem.

Come on man - you know as well as I do that a head that flows better makes an engine more efficient. The cylinder head is one of the most significant contributors to an efficient engine. You will make more power with a 2j block than a similarly modded 7m. Bottom line.

Aaron, if you happen to read this, can you snap a couple pics of the stock 2JZ pistons? I have doubts as to whether or not they are forged from the factory.

You are right about the pistons not being forged - they are pressure cast. They still hold the power though. I stand corrected. You can see the casting flash in the pictures of the pistons I took in my other thread. Just do a search for my user ID.

Either way, you admit you are looking at $3300+ to put a 2JZ-GE into my car, and turbo it. For $3300, I could have a 7M that would *destroy* that 2JZ-GE(T) in the 1320. Hell, for $3300, I could damn near BUY another MKIII, AND build a 7M to whoop up on your 2JZ-GE(T)

But hey, to each their own, right?

Sorry dude - - I dont believe you when you say you dont need the rods for over 500 hp. ESPECIALLY over 600hp. I think that the $2700 bucks I said earlier is a VERY conservative number for a 7M that can take the regular abuse of 500+ hp on a daily basis. So I am sticking to that estimate, and with that you will have about 600 bucks to blow.

A CT upgrade could be had for that...... You are right. A CT upgrade could still run on the stock 7M ECU and kick the shit out of my car. BUT, you are stuck at about 400 HP without sharing in the same expenses I have. I guess you COULD use a manual boost controller too...... And how are you tuning your fuel or measuring your mix? You are also at the limit of your karmann-vortex AFM.......

Are you happy with only 400 hp? If so, great! If not, lets spend some more cash! Remember that now I have an EMS and WB O2? This is where the difference comes in. You are still going to have to buy a turbo, mani, DP etc - to push it up past 500hp; just as I have to do with my engine. Now, dollar for dollar, mod for mod, my 2JZ is going to RUN YOU DOWN.

Except now you dont have fuel management..... Or a WB O2....or a boost controller.... maybe you can get an safc2 or something....

 

[p5150]

This is what was done to my motor, and the costs involved.
I feel no money was ill spent. This will be a 650+ hp motor.
Check my build thread for pics. Yeah, the work was done by sponsored1.

Thermal Clean Block - 100
Bore Block - 90
Hone Block with plate - 110
Line Hone Block - 120
Wash Block - 40
Deck Block and lap- 100
Balance Crank - 120
Weight match rods - 30
Weight match Pistons - 30
Clean Head - 40
Chamber work - 240
Bowl port and plunge cut - 240
Runner Port Work - 300
Install guides and valve job - 300
Deck Head - 60
Assemble head w new seals - 80
Assemble Short Block 300

So $2200 for a stock internal 7M? Did you have pistons or rods changed?

 

[sponsored1]

So $2200 for a stock internal 7M? Did you have pistons or rods changed?

Most of that money is in the cylinder head work, but yes it has crowers and custom je's.

 

[MassSupra89]

And I thought the 7M-JZ arguement was beat into the ground before. Now you have to ruin someone's thread with it?... Way to go.

 

[p5150]

Most of that money is in the cylinder head work, but yes it has crowers and custom je's.

So it was about $3200-3500 for the whole shabang?

 

[JoeC]

p5150, go back to the JZ forums you douche. Stop ruining this thread, you're like a honda owner trying to say their car makes torque. its OLD and STUPID, so STFU.

 

[p5150]

p5150, go back to the JZ forums you douche. Stop ruining this thread, you're like a honda owner trying to say their car makes torque. its OLD and STUPID, so STFU.

Wow man - no need to call names.

 

[JoeC]

Yes, there IS a need.. You have ruined this thread with 7 pages of BULLSHIT trying to prove why one motor is better than the other. You are like a 10 year old kid that HAS to have every one agree to what he says. STFU.

 

[whenmunkysfly]

p5150 you do realize that forged interals dont give you anything but a bigger window for misstake right the stock interals are as capable as the persons ability to tune the car.

Edit and the reason everyone is so pissed is because this guy posted asking about the price of machine work and you come in here with ditch it and get a 2jz. he wasnt asking is it worth it he was asking if it was a good price hes going to build his 7m no matter what you have to say.

 

[MassSupra89]

and the reason everyone is so pissed is because this guy posted asking about the price of machine work and you come in here with ditch it and get a 2jz.

Exactly.
It's like buying a steak and someone saying "Screw that, You shoulda just had spaghetti because I like it better"

 

[p5150]

Exactly.
It's like buying a steak and someone saying "Screw that, You shoulda just had spaghetti because I like it better"

If you are really hungry why pay $25 for a 6 ounce gourmet steak that wont fill you up when you can buy the spaghetti for $20 that will fill you up?

The whole point is that for high HP levels the 2j is a better value than the 7M, and I hate to see somebody dump a bunch of money on something that they can accomplish more effectively with another route.

If he had a non-turbo and was rebuilding it would you complain if I was suggesting that he buy a JDM or domestic 7MGTE and put it in instead of rebuilding his NA? Probably not.

Everybody that is arguing with me about it is just as much to blame as I for the deviation from the main topic.

 

[p5150]

p5150 you do realize that forged interals dont give you anything but a bigger window for misstake right the stock interals are as capable as the persons ability to tune the car.

Yeah you are right; they do give you a bigger window. And just because something is forged doesnt mean its stronger. So does that mean I can tune a 3.0L Chevy V6 to 800 hp with the right tuning? Dont think so... Engines have their limits and you arent going to tune a stock 7m that high and keep it reliable.... But the bottom end of the 2J is built better than the 7M, and not just with the rods. Have you ever looked at one? The rods ARE forged and they MUCH more stout on the rod ends around the crankshaft.

I can see the 7M/1J argument, but the 2J argument is no contest. But stock 2J blocks are making a REGULAR 800 hp. -

and I was wrong earlier about the pistons being forged. They are pressure-cast aluminum. Regardless, the pistons are the EXACT SAME material as the GTE version which people have no problem making BIG HP. People are making REGULAR, DEPENDABLE, BIG HP with the stock block GE.

 

[loki2043]

okay im sticking with the damn 7m, i dont give a shit about this 2jz at this point and even if i did i would go 1j. keep that talk in the 1j/2j area or on SF in the mkiv