tekdeus said:
try doing that test on a 7m for 30 minutes. then ill be a believer! if a rod hasnt gone through the block yet.:icon_conf
Bi-Tron Oil Additive...Snake Oil? You be the Judge
- Thread starter jdub
- Start date
- Status
try doing that test on a 7m for 30 minutes. then ill be a believer! if a rod hasnt gone through the block yet.:icon_conf
tekdeus said:
i've done no name calling.
as for working, define it. FEELS better? sure. actually doing something measurable? doubtful.
be careful- we are merely exercising the same freedoms you are. you are free to hype a product, we are free to disagree.
I just read through the entire thread and I am quite dissatisfied with the scientific evidence backing up bi-tron. Like it has been said repeatedly, if this product is so outstanding, what is stopping bi-tron from performing (and the most important: making results publicly available) SAE, API, and ASTM tests on the additive to back up their clams? Sure the additive may reduce some perceived signs of wear in the interim, but what testing has been performed on the cumulative effect of the use of this additive? Since it is a relatively new product, i am guessing zero. If there is in fact a component of the additive that releases chloride ions at high temperature, after thousands of miles this would be detrimental to every single ferrous-based lubricated component. And no, you would not observe this damage in a home garage-based empirical test. The reluctance of bi-tron to make the composition of additive publicaly available suggests that they are indeed hiding something and that while use of their product may have immediate benefits (which they endlessly tout), these benefits are likely temporary and prolonged use of the product may have a severely detrimental effect on internal engine components.
Last edited:
tekdeus said:
LOL...quality evidence? Videos of you and your Dad out in the garage? On a machine that "may" (and that's a BIG may) be good for demonstrating oil shear?
And it's ok in your mind to compare your product to another product...one that got spanked by the FTC? This is suppose to convince us that all is well now? Yeah...I'm sorry, but I'm just a teeny weenie bit skeptical that a leopard can change it's spots.
tekdeus said:
I have not called you anything that was out of line...no name calling at all. You on the other hand:
tekdeus said:
tekdeus said:
tekdeus said:
tekdeus said:
Have attacked my character and motives defending your product...a purely emotional arguement.
All I have asked for (along with several others) is independently verified, repeatable tests using a standardized testing procedure and the chemical make-up of Bi-Tron. Just asking for proof and all you can do is show me a video from your garage...nothing of substance at all. You even got an offer from Suprasport91 to do the testing...for free. Didn't see you jump on that one Brad.
Like I said...I'm going to let the people who read this thread make up their own mind. It's a pretty straightforward choice.
Is an MSDS available for this stuff? If not, I hope no business has it on their shelves, OSHA and the EPA frown on that. If so, it should say what's in it unless it's all a "trade secret" :icon_bigg
Anytime you come acrosss a product that should be able to be scientifically quantified, but the seller instead relies on personal "testimonials" to advertise and promote their products it's time to stop and pay attention.
Anecdotal evidence is commonly used to promote such things as miracle weight loss diets and astrology. (And oil additives.)
This is one of the safest things that a company can do from a liability perspective. When advertising, as long as you are only expressing some one else's personal opinion, you don't have to prove a thing. It's just an opinion, it has no basis in fact whatsoever.
This is why you'll see it used in MLM's all the time. It's double insulation for the people producing this junk.
Look at it from that perspective. You've come up with a snake oil that you think will sell. But there are a couple of problems.
1. The product is really no good.
2. Science can easily prove that fact.
Enter the MLM.
Now you've got a product that you can unload onto mass of inexperienced salesmen and you've got some great things going for you.
During the indoctrination you press them very hard and tell them "testimonials, testimonials, testimonials". Never promise anything, just tell stories about how great the product worked for users a, b and c. Tell them "well you know they are all out to get us, so you have to be careful..."
They are all independant contractors. You can't be held responsible for what they do. If one of them does make outlandish claims, you just disconnect from him.
One of the things to consider is that the MLM organization can effectively skirt the Federal Trade Commission by using word-of-mouth testimonials, supposed "studies" done by scientists, fabricated endorsements, rumors and other misrepresentations that would never be allowed to see the light of day in the real world of product promotion, shady as it is.
Things like:
Sorry, that's about all the bullshit I can stand.
Anecdotal evidence is commonly used to promote such things as miracle weight loss diets and astrology. (And oil additives.)
This is one of the safest things that a company can do from a liability perspective. When advertising, as long as you are only expressing some one else's personal opinion, you don't have to prove a thing. It's just an opinion, it has no basis in fact whatsoever.
This is why you'll see it used in MLM's all the time. It's double insulation for the people producing this junk.
Look at it from that perspective. You've come up with a snake oil that you think will sell. But there are a couple of problems.
1. The product is really no good.
2. Science can easily prove that fact.
Enter the MLM.
Now you've got a product that you can unload onto mass of inexperienced salesmen and you've got some great things going for you.
During the indoctrination you press them very hard and tell them "testimonials, testimonials, testimonials". Never promise anything, just tell stories about how great the product worked for users a, b and c. Tell them "well you know they are all out to get us, so you have to be careful..."
They are all independant contractors. You can't be held responsible for what they do. If one of them does make outlandish claims, you just disconnect from him.
One of the things to consider is that the MLM organization can effectively skirt the Federal Trade Commission by using word-of-mouth testimonials, supposed "studies" done by scientists, fabricated endorsements, rumors and other misrepresentations that would never be allowed to see the light of day in the real world of product promotion, shady as it is.
Things like:
Sorry, that's about all the bullshit I can stand.
Jeez.
Do I believe in it? No.
I'm curious - If I were to run Bi-tron, drain the oil, and run the motor to see how long it lasts, would they re-imburse me if the motor grenades?
Talk about putting your money where your mouth is.
Do I believe in it? No.
I'm curious - If I were to run Bi-tron, drain the oil, and run the motor to see how long it lasts, would they re-imburse me if the motor grenades?
Talk about putting your money where your mouth is.
For the peace of mind for you guys who are currently using the products, not the haters, the company promises "totally non-corrosive, and contains no solids". I've been distributing Bi-Tron for 3 years and using it in everything I own with no problems, and many people have been using them since the 90's with no "corrosion" whatsoever.
The guys here in Vancouver can vouch that I sold them the product at my wholesale cost for no profit, because I wanted to help the buds out with a great product. It's easy to be judgemental of someone you've never met on a forum so I just want to clear up my viewpoint on all this. Anyways, I'll see you all in my widebody build thread. Peace!
The guys here in Vancouver can vouch that I sold them the product at my wholesale cost for no profit, because I wanted to help the buds out with a great product. It's easy to be judgemental of someone you've never met on a forum so I just want to clear up my viewpoint on all this. Anyways, I'll see you all in my widebody build thread. Peace!
Nice try Brad, but I believe I started this thread
Like I said, I am suspicious that Bi-Tron contains chloroparaffin. Since you cannot (or will not) provide it's chemical composition, how can we know otherwise. That chemical would provide excellent lubricating properties...it is one of the best machining lubricants out there. However, the fact that it breaks down under high temperature over time and the by-product of this breakdown is hydrochloric acid is a known property. That makes it a chemical that I would not put in my engine.
The only way you will get around this "theory" (as you put it), is to provide the chemical make-up of Bi-Tron...the specific composition of this product. This has been asked over and over....either you are selling something that you really don't know what it contains or you don't want us to know for your own reasons.
Like I said, I am suspicious that Bi-Tron contains chloroparaffin. Since you cannot (or will not) provide it's chemical composition, how can we know otherwise. That chemical would provide excellent lubricating properties...it is one of the best machining lubricants out there. However, the fact that it breaks down under high temperature over time and the by-product of this breakdown is hydrochloric acid is a known property. That makes it a chemical that I would not put in my engine.
The only way you will get around this "theory" (as you put it), is to provide the chemical make-up of Bi-Tron...the specific composition of this product. This has been asked over and over....either you are selling something that you really don't know what it contains or you don't want us to know for your own reasons.
I will be doing testing on this product regardless, i have a sample and am very curious, although spectroscopy ( both particle ( plasma/electron ) and infrared) has its moments it is not complete analysis of the product and should not be seen as a complete test, but hell its better than nothing. I will test for solids ( depending on what my detection limits are), and determine these limits with three stadard deviations, which should yield a 98% confidence level...if all goes well ( i will document every step for validity). Believe me, i want this product to be true as this would be a great product if it performs as stated, but i am not for the egg in the radiator method. Ill see what i can do ( Finals week though.., so i cant get this going for another week). Either way im doing the tests, i will do three tests for every sample, including the controls and temperatures.
Damn it looks like ive got to pull out some old books and make sure this goes right, im gonna try, thats all i can garauntee
I will be testing for more but i dont really want to write it again as i already explained to Tekdus in a PM, im tired ill get back to this tommorrow.
Lol, i will be testing for hydrogen Ions, salts, and in light of Jdubs curiosity chlorinated parrafins
Oh and i remember JduB said something about me doing the tesing for free....i am getting paid, but we all know most funding doesnt even go towards the research of the specified assignment, FYI my "real" research is on the interaction between the centromere/kinetochor complex and the spindle apparatus....just thinking about tommorow makes me want to fall asleep...
Damn it looks like ive got to pull out some old books and make sure this goes right, im gonna try, thats all i can garauntee
I will be testing for more but i dont really want to write it again as i already explained to Tekdus in a PM, im tired ill get back to this tommorrow.
logan said:
Lol, i will be testing for hydrogen Ions, salts, and in light of Jdubs curiosity chlorinated parrafins
Oh and i remember JduB said something about me doing the tesing for free....i am getting paid, but we all know most funding doesnt even go towards the research of the specified assignment, FYI my "real" research is on the interaction between the centromere/kinetochor complex and the spindle apparatus....just thinking about tommorow makes me want to fall asleep...
Last edited:
tekdeus said:
who is hating? all we are asking for is real, repeatable scientific PROOF. the only person getting emotional here is you. :3d_frown:
I am a firm beleive in Bi-tron because we ran my tercel, in the video on brads page, for 15 mins with no oil. there were no knocks, smooth as can be.
It is truly amazing stuff
We also ran over a crap load of nails which did infact puncture the tires several times and they did not go flat with the tire additive.
Hands down bi-tron is amazing!
It is truly amazing stuff
We also ran over a crap load of nails which did infact puncture the tires several times and they did not go flat with the tire additive.
Hands down bi-tron is amazing!
JustAnotherVictim
Supramania Contributor
Firm believing doesn't show proof of anything. Is it really that hard to come up with some test results and a chemical make up?? No it isn't.
Slapped it in my Caravan with 270K which had a bad valve in the morning. (clacking sound). I put it in and the valves have not clacked since. Also found a bit more pick up in the old work van. It must be doing something, cause I have put about 4700K on since... and the oil still looks clean too.... really clean. I was surprised, cause I just changed the oil. Still testing!:aigo: Maybe I will put a turbo on the Caravan, and see how she goes under extreme turbo boost!! LOL This post is funny!
- Status