Bi-Tron Oil Additive...Snake Oil? You be the Judge

[donnys90T]

Just as I thought. Didn't answer a single question. Just more fluff. Forget science? I should've known I'd get that based on years of studying crap like this.

Reading jdub's thread I see you're registered on that oil forum. How come you don't post over there? Is it because the chemists, tribologists, and petrochem engineers would tear you a new one in a nanosecond? Uh huh.

I'm done with this. Never should've gotten into it. If others want to keep lightening their wallets buying this stuff let them. I know better. Like you, I'll be laughing at them all the way to the bank.

 

[tekdeus]

It's not magic that some engines quiet when the oil is thickened.

Bi-Tron is not a thickener.

There are several ways the four ball, bearing, and other tests used to promote these scams can be manipulated. All the snake oil salesmen know these tricks and routinely employ them at dozens of auto shows across the country to dupe the motoring public..

As I stated above, NOTHING is being "manipulated" in my videos, and you can personally come to my house and test any oil you like on my setup.

If this stuff is so great why is it sold on ebay and over the internet? How come I can't buy it at my local auto store or Wally World? Why do these firms often rely on kids and retired folks to peddle their crap? Isn't the entire point to increase sales volume and make money?

You sir, although knowlegdable in many areas, obviously knows nothing of the home-based direct selling industry, which is how much of Amsoil's products are distributed. It is an $88 billion dollar worldwide market, with 50 million people currently involved. The company has already sold far more than any traditional informercial/retail campaign could have.

 

[jdub]

What about my questions tekdeus? Donny is not being condescending, he's speaking the truth. You've neatly side stepped my questions...and, I guess you have SAE/API test equipment at your house. Gosh, I wish I could have toys like that. BTW, the next time I'm in Vancouver I just might take you up on that offer...since I'm a commercial pilot, I've got the technology

So...what about:

- Who were the independent labs and where's the test data?
- If this is so good, why don't you post over at the oil forum?
- What is the chemical make-up of Bi-Tron?

Cyroslash - you were edited out of this thread once...if you don't have anything constructive to add, please keep the personal aspects out of it.

 

[tekdeus]

...I searched and could not find any...is that because Bi-Trol neglected to have API or SAE to look at the product? Or is it because they didn't want the people responsible for oil standardization to see what was actually in it?

It's highly probable that there is a real conspiracy with things like the SAE. For example, the "big oil companies" know about this, but they only want to make oil that is approved by the SAE. Who are they? The Society of Automotive Engineers. The big auto companies make a HUGE percentage of their profits from residual OEM parts sales. Would they approve of a product that virtually eliminates wear? I doubt it $$$, they would fight it into the ground. All these big-wigs are quite happy with the status quo staying the way it is. (Mainly start-up wear slooowly killing engines and drivetrains so they fail after the manufacturer's warranty)

I don't know more about what's in it other than what I've stated. So what if they don't want to reveal what's in it? Why create competition? They're marketing a product that works and have sold millions worth of it, mainly through word-of-mouth. In the big picture of things that's how this type of marketing works. Although some people like to see hard-core scientific data, they really only represent and small percentage of the market. The majority of the public does not respond to that, they respond most strongly to the results their friends and families tell them. It's a trust thing and it does wonders for products that actually work well.

The company is probably not going to spend a fortune just to satisfy the .01% of the Jdub's in the market, for an SAE test, which would likely conspire to fight it down to protect their "real international interests" anyways.

I did post it in an oil forum, only to get the snake oil responses from guys like you who have seen so much crap that even if a product came along that did some amazing things, you would not be able to see it.

Do you think Randy at BIC makes his downpipes for free? Is he "just in it for the money too"?
I don't see a problem making a $5 or $10 profit for helping someone protect their components or avoid the cost of rebuilding roller bearings.

Either way Jdub, you're still insulting the other guys on this forum by nullifying their personal results in their cars.

 

[ma71supraturbo]

Guys please keep this on topic and civil. If you do not have something to add regarding Bi-tron, please take it to PM

 

[NashMan]

Jdub simmer down some man dame you go on and on and on

here is one for you buy a bottle send it in your self since you have all these hook up why not do it and put end to all this

half the stuff you wright no one really under stands cetp big words like eat your motor ect not say it does or any thgin caus ie don't know

 

[jdub]

Just as I thought...no answers

- No independent testing...it's a conspiracy anyway...standards are really meaningless right? So now you're saying that it's "Big Oil" coming down on the little guy? The SAE doesn't care about saving fuel and wear on an engine? Come on man, you can do better than that.

- Donny was right...you don't post over at the oil forum because the chemists, tribologists, and petrochemical engineers that hang out there would tear you to pieces. Your "feel good" arguments just don't hold water. I (like them) DO see this product for what it really is...a way for you to get your hands on the hard earned dollars better spent elsewhere.

- And you can't tell me what's in this product...just like I said you wouldn't...that would reveal it for what it really is. Wouldn't it?

But this is the part that gets me:

I don't know more about what's in it other than what I've stated. So what if they don't want to reveal what's in it? Why create competition? They're marketing a product that works and have sold millions worth of it, mainly through word-of-mouth. In the big picture of things that's how this type of marketing works. Although some people like to see hard-core scientific data, they really only represent and small percentage of the market. The majority of the public does not respond to that, they respond most strongly to the results their friends and families tell them. It's a trust thing and it does wonders for products that actually work well.

The company is probably not going to spend a fortune just to satisfy the .01% of the Jdub's in the market, for an SAE test, which would likely conspire to fight it down to protect their "real international interests" anyways.

Got news for ya man...anyone with a clue would want to see the science behind this. Are you saying that you only want to market to the people that will believe what you are saying based on pure hearsay? That we should forget the science and just believe the outrageous claims on Bi-Tron's website. Are you saying intelligent people make up only .01% of the guys on this forum?

I'm not the guy insulting the people here...you are...do you think we should just "believe" and buy this product? I'm just asking you to back-up the claims of Bi-Tron...something you have not been able to do. Instead we get "forget the science"..."it's a trust thing"..."there is a real conspiracy with things like the SAE". All the attributes of a multi-level marketing ploy. I hope this thread opens the eyes of the good people here and they all see you for what you and your product is.

Nash - mass gas chromatograph analysis is rather expensive ($500-700)...I'd do it in a heartbeat otherwise to reveal Bi-Tron for what it is. Then maybe tekdeus would understand science is the basis of an informed decision and not the hearsay he clings to.

 

[lagged]

i personally love conspiracy theories, though i dont take them seriously all the time, i love to indulge my self and get into many different conspiracy theories.

but i have to say, an SAE conspiracy to me would seem highly unlikely.

for the mere reason that, automakers dont need engines to slowly die after the warantee is expired. why? because people buy new cars when they have perfectly running cars anyway. its just what people do. they trade in their old cars and get new ones.

so, wouldnt it make MORE sense to help get cars to run forever? people will always want new cars, and they will always be able to resell used cars again and again.

everyone wins. we get cars that last longer and longer, automakers get to keep reselling their old cars again and again. you really cant go wrong there.

this bitron shit is just that....shi....snake oil

 

[tekdeus]

Got news for ya man...anyone with a clue would want to see the science behind this. Are you saying that you only want to market to the people that will believe what you are saying based on pure hearsay? That we should forget the science and just believe the outrageous claims on Bi-Tron's website. Are you saying intelligent people make up only .01% of the guys on this forum?

I'm not the guy insulting the people here...you are...do you think we should just "believe" and buy this product? I'm just asking you to back-up the claims of Bi-Tron...

I suggested that .01% of the market are people that solely demand lab results(yes us Supramaniacs are rare in the big picture of the USA). Besides, over 80% of car owners don't use anything in their oil or fuel because they happily assume that the SAE and the "Big oil companies" have their best interests in mind (save them wear and minimize fuel consumption? Think again) So the only way to reach that market of people is by education and direct information. I don't care if you don't buy any Jdub, it is just pompous and insulting of you do bark down at a product that you "have theories about", while real people are getting real results saving themselves a lot of unneccesary wear, and millions worth of this product has been used with no evidence of corrosion after 13 years.

The funny thing is that the "outrageous claims" you speak of are coming from hundreds of happy customers. Has the whole world gone insane, or just jdub?

I didn't believe this product when I first saw the corporate videos, so I went to great lengths to prove it to myself with all the resources I had access to. There is nothing more I can do to show the merits of this product. Good enough for me and lots of others, so please leave us alone.

P.S. One of the companies main R&D specialsts served on the SAE and participated in the development of Chevron's Techron. Here's a 38 minute detailed audio clip:http://www.echowavepro.com/m3u/product32.m3u

 

[tekdeus]

for the mere reason that, automakers dont need engines to slowly die after the warantee is expired. why? because people buy new cars when they have perfectly running cars anyway. its just what people do. they trade in their old cars and get new ones.

Do some research. The auto makers make MUCH more from the sale of OEM parts than from the sale of new cars.

 

[lagged]

Do some research. The auto makers make MUCH more from the sale of OEM parts than from the sale of new cars.

and what about the re-sale of their used cars from trade ins or straight up sales back to them?

 

[loki2043]

I didn't believe this product when I first saw the corporate videos, so I went to great lengths to prove it to myself with all the resources I had access to. There is nothing more I can do to show the merits of this product. Good enough for me and lots of others, so please leave us alone.

so why is it that you will not share with us the great lengths that you went to to find out how this is a great product... if going through great lengths is reading 10K testimonials then thats not enough. come on man. why keep it such a big secret? what are these resources??

 

[jdub]

You're killing me man :3d_frown:

I don't care if you don't buy any Jdub, it is just pompous and insulting of you do bark down at a product that you "have theories about", while real people are getting real results saving themselves a lot of unneccesary wear, and millions worth of this product has been used with no evidence of corrosion after 13 years.

The funny thing is that the "outrageous claims" you speak of are coming from hundreds of happy customers. Has the whole world gone insane, or just jdub?

Typical behavior involving sales of this type of product...get backed into a corner when you can't back up your claims and you resort to personal insults. You proved my point nicely...thank you

The bottom line:
- You can't provide test data...not even the name of labs conducting independent tests.
- You cannot provide the chemical make-up of this product, even though information is readily available for other additives on the market
- The entire marketing of Bi-Tron is based on testimonials and non-standard "test results"...the science is simply not there.

I will tell you this...I've been on this forum for a while. I'm not going to leave you alone. Every time you promote this product on this forum, I will post and point to this thread. We'll let the individuals here make up there own mind who to believe and who is actually promoting a theory...or in reality...snake oil.

 

[loki2043]

You're killing me man :3d_frown:



Typical behavior involving sales of this type of product...get backed into a corner when you can't back up your claims and you resort to personal insults. You proved my point nicely...thank you

The bottom line:
- You can't provide test data...not even the name of labs conducting independent tests.
- You cannot provide the chemical make-up of this product, even though information is readily available for other additives on the market
- The entire marketing of Bi-Tron is based on testimonials and non-standard "test results"...the science is simply not there.

I will tell you this...I've been on this forum for a while. I'm not going to leave you alone. Every time you promote this product on this forum, I will post and point to this thread. We'll let the individuals here make up there own mind who to believe and who is actually promoting a theory...or in reality...snake oil.

well said!

 

[tekdeus]

Jdub, you've nicely sidestepped my logical information about the plastic deformation of metal surfaces under load, and this has been more than thoroughly demonstrated. This is a science, and this science works. This is obviously becoming a manipulative head game for you and I opt out at this time. Have a nice day.

 

[drjonez]

...
The bottom line:
- You can't provide test data...not even the name of labs conducting independent tests.
- You cannot provide the chemical make-up of this product, even though information is readily available for other additives on the market
- The entire marketing of Bi-Tron is based on testimonials and non-standard "test results"...the science is simply not there.
...

that sums it up. as w/all additives, they do exactly that- rely on testimonials, etc.

tek- really want to justifiy the stuff you're pushing? get some true testing done. unfortunately, you'll probably be depressed w/the results....

 

[Zach]

Jdub, you've nicely sidestepped my logical information about the plastic deformation of metal surfaces under load, and this has been more than thoroughly demonstrated. This is a science, and this science works. This is obviously becoming a manipulative head game for you and I opt out at this time. Have a nice day.

You've said plastic deformation about forty times as if that'll justify your product. It's funny that you mention sidestepping logical information, as you've been dodging all of the important questions.

If you're so sure of your product, spend the 500 bucks and prove yourself right; you'll quickly make that money back since your product is good, right?

 

[drjonez]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_deformation

 

[dejacky]

You've said plastic deformation about forty times as if that'll justify your product. It's funny that you mention sidestepping logical information, as you've been dodging all of the important questions.

If you're so sure of your product, spend the 500 bucks and prove yourself right; you'll quickly make that money back since your product is good, right?

Finally someone said it. I agree with Zach and jdub. Tekdeus, people on www.bobistheoilguy.com forums actually warn the public about you saying you try to sell them Bi-tron even though you know it's a bullshit product. If you've had so many successfull sales as you claim, paying to have Bitron tested with empirical results will only help you sell more of it...thereby, making you more profit.

If you have the BiTron tested, I promise to buy 3 changes worth of bi-tron product for the following from you:

oil additive
trans additive
differential additive

 

[drjonez]

Finally someone said it. I agree with Zach and jdub. Tekdeus, people on www.bobistheoilguy.com forums actually warn the public about you saying you try to sell them Bi-tron even though you know it's a bullshit product. If you've had so many successfull sales as you claim, paying to have Bitron tested with empirical results will only help you sell more of it...thereby, making you more profit....

the same can be said of Bi-tron as a company- they should have the capital to get their own product tested....but they've chosen not to? :3d_frown: