Bi-Tron Oil Additive...Snake Oil? You be the Judge
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SAE and API are responsible for motor oil standards. The service categories you are referring to is an alphanumeric code developed by API to specify a level of performance defined by ASTM D 4485 and SAE Standard J183. As new service categories are developed, new alphanumeric codes are assigned. The highest rated SAE oil out there...well, that's subject to a great deal of debate...LOL
Here's my opinion (and why) on the oils I like in this thread...I started at post #9:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31789
Also here...beginning at post #80:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12216&page=4
Here's my opinion (and why) on the oils I like in this thread...I started at post #9:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31789
Also here...beginning at post #80:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12216&page=4
well i am always u for new innovations, but i have to agree with the others. why the hell didnt you test it yet?
jimi87-t said:Jdub thats what I run, 0-30 European Castrol full synthetic.
w/ no additional additives
Excellent choice
Kinda hard to tell I like that oil, huh :biglaugh:
I tested it do death with what I own and made 14 separate demonstration videos, but I don't run the company. I already posted lab results from the previous company that distributed the product. The current company is still rather new and there is very little demand from the field to do new testing. I have already asked for newer test results but it probably won't happen soon. The company is doing quite well with what they've got. Where would I send a sample to get tested? What would it cost me? Never done that before but I might in the future.
I can perform both an IR and ICP spectroscopy test, ive done it with several lubricants and oils, kindof on line with the lab work for my internship, i would do ferrography...but thats too boring, it takes forver and im really not an expert in metallurgy, but i can perform the spectroscopy test for the new product and possibly run the stuff in my honda and take a sample to test for HCl, if you need this stuff tested i have the resources and i know alot of people with the knowledge to get it done ( provided you tell me waht kind of tests you want or what you are looking for).
I believe that would be extrusion if im not mistaken, however, it has been a while.. so dont get on me if this one is wrong
Lol...touche
I just want to know how/why the stuff works. What exactly is it supposed to do? Does it increase film strength during hydrodynamic lubrication? Does it have special anti-wear adds for boundary conditions? Is it mineral or synthetic based? Since it can't change the laws of physics I'd like to know how it achieves it's miraculous claims. Is that asking too much?
I finally looked at the vids. Is that a Timken machine? As I recall they're designed for testing greases not oils. They're a long time favorite of snake oil salesmen. It's what they use at auto shows to dupe people. Research it and you'll see.
I just want to know how/why the stuff works. What exactly is it supposed to do? Does it increase film strength during hydrodynamic lubrication? Does it have special anti-wear adds for boundary conditions? Is it mineral or synthetic based? Since it can't change the laws of physics I'd like to know how it achieves it's miraculous claims. Is that asking too much?
I finally looked at the vids. Is that a Timken machine? As I recall they're designed for testing greases not oils. They're a long time favorite of snake oil salesmen. It's what they use at auto shows to dupe people. Research it and you'll see.
The Bi-Tron lubricants are extremely similar to Prolong, which is a publicly traded company, having gone through many lab tests as posted on their site. To prove that the things I am describing are not so far-fetched, here are some exerpts from their website:
"Prolong's AFMT technology doesn't just enhance motor oils, transmission fluids, gear oils, and other lubricants. The patented AFMT formula actually treats and modifies the surface of the metal. AFMT is a highly specialized extreme-pressure property lubricant that is formulated by chemically treating paraffin-based hydrocarbons, known to be superior lubricants capable of withstanding extremely high temperatures and pressures. Prolong AFMT is formulated with a unique long-chain molecule achieving significant chemical stability. This process is patent protected and is so stable that it is responsible for achieving the highest possible "1a" rating in independent laboratory testing designed to determine the anti-corrosive characteristics of lubricants.
Motor oils, transmission fluids and gear oils are flowing lubricants that provide a film barrier between metal surfaces pressing or rubbing together. The greater the film strength, the better the oil. However, in extreme pressure metal-to-metal areas, the film strength of oil is seriously thinned and is often completely squeezed out.
On the other hand, Prolong is a bonding lubricant. Prolong AFMT interacts with metal surfaces in a molecular and chemical process to create a protective buffer on the surface of the metal. This is not a film or coating over the metal. Molecules in the AFMT formula are polarized and actually bond with the metal surface. The layer of AFMT molecules is activated by extreme pressure and heat, meaning that Prolong lubrication performs best right where it is needed most!
"Prolong's AFMT technology doesn't just enhance motor oils, transmission fluids, gear oils, and other lubricants. The patented AFMT formula actually treats and modifies the surface of the metal. AFMT is a highly specialized extreme-pressure property lubricant that is formulated by chemically treating paraffin-based hydrocarbons, known to be superior lubricants capable of withstanding extremely high temperatures and pressures. Prolong AFMT is formulated with a unique long-chain molecule achieving significant chemical stability. This process is patent protected and is so stable that it is responsible for achieving the highest possible "1a" rating in independent laboratory testing designed to determine the anti-corrosive characteristics of lubricants.
Motor oils, transmission fluids and gear oils are flowing lubricants that provide a film barrier between metal surfaces pressing or rubbing together. The greater the film strength, the better the oil. However, in extreme pressure metal-to-metal areas, the film strength of oil is seriously thinned and is often completely squeezed out.
On the other hand, Prolong is a bonding lubricant. Prolong AFMT interacts with metal surfaces in a molecular and chemical process to create a protective buffer on the surface of the metal. This is not a film or coating over the metal. Molecules in the AFMT formula are polarized and actually bond with the metal surface. The layer of AFMT molecules is activated by extreme pressure and heat, meaning that Prolong lubrication performs best right where it is needed most!
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I would like to encourage everyone that reads this thread to visit Brad's website (in his sig). There are several test videos with Brad and his Father in the family garage testing Bi-Trol against several other oils and additives. The machine (yes, it's a Timken machine) they are using is similar to the one I spoke about in Post #2 and #7:
The term Brad used for this test is "extreme wear test"...I Googled that term and could not find it in any standard testing procedures. However (for comparison), I did find a link to tribology test equipment:
http://tribotesters.net/tribology_products_names.htm
and:
http://www.microphotonics.com/wearmenu.html
In addition (again for comparison), here are the tests a motor oil must go through to be SAE/API rated:
http://www.infineum.com/information/api-passenger-sm-2004.html
http://www.infineum.com/information/api-passenger-sj-sl-2004.html
I search Brad's website, but could not find any independent testing done by Brad or Bi-Trol Corp. There were the videos mentioned above with Brad and his Dan in the garage...there were also numerous testimonials.
Take a look at the videos and the test equipment/procedures in the links above...you can come to your own conclusions.
Disclaimer:
I am likely insane for questioning the virtues of Bi-Trol (and/or for picking on a nice guy like Brad). I am being manipulative for questioning and pointing out the lack of hard independent test data for this product. I am playing head games for doubting there is an SAE conspiracy to keep this type of product out of the consumers hands, necessitating a direct person-to-person marketing approach. And lastly, I am extremely pompous and insulting to even consider inquiring about the chemical make-up of Bi-Tron.
jdub said:
The term Brad used for this test is "extreme wear test"...I Googled that term and could not find it in any standard testing procedures. However (for comparison), I did find a link to tribology test equipment:
http://tribotesters.net/tribology_products_names.htm
and:
http://www.microphotonics.com/wearmenu.html
In addition (again for comparison), here are the tests a motor oil must go through to be SAE/API rated:
http://www.infineum.com/information/api-passenger-sm-2004.html
http://www.infineum.com/information/api-passenger-sj-sl-2004.html
I search Brad's website, but could not find any independent testing done by Brad or Bi-Trol Corp. There were the videos mentioned above with Brad and his Dan in the garage...there were also numerous testimonials.
Take a look at the videos and the test equipment/procedures in the links above...you can come to your own conclusions.
Disclaimer:
I am likely insane for questioning the virtues of Bi-Trol (and/or for picking on a nice guy like Brad). I am being manipulative for questioning and pointing out the lack of hard independent test data for this product. I am playing head games for doubting there is an SAE conspiracy to keep this type of product out of the consumers hands, necessitating a direct person-to-person marketing approach. And lastly, I am extremely pompous and insulting to even consider inquiring about the chemical make-up of Bi-Tron.
I can't take much more of this.
"Prolong AFMT interacts with metal surfaces in a molecular and chemical process to create a protective buffer on the surface of the metal. This is not a film or coating over the metal. Molecules in the AFMT formula are polarized and actually bond with the metal surface."
More junk science. It's not a coating or film yet it creates a protective coating on the surface? What kind of double talk is that? If it's a polar molecule all that means in layman's terms is it'll stick well and any ester based oil is polar. If it has moly in it they'll be some "plating" action that results in an EP (extreme pressure) film but it's still a film. And EP adds are usually reserved for use in EP applications like gearing where the applied loading versus surface area is small.
Russia? Have you ever been to the former soviet union? If you'd had especially during the early 90s you'd know better than to post that angle. Even when I'm there today I marvel at how they can get even the simplest of things done without stealing and copying another country's technology. Ponimau?
I'm still waiting for an explanation of the "positively charged ionic oil molecule" thing.
Btw, you mean Prolong Lubricants? The Prolong Lubricants the Federal Trade Commission came down hard on a few years ago for misrepresentation? That Prolong?
"Prolong AFMT interacts with metal surfaces in a molecular and chemical process to create a protective buffer on the surface of the metal. This is not a film or coating over the metal. Molecules in the AFMT formula are polarized and actually bond with the metal surface."
More junk science. It's not a coating or film yet it creates a protective coating on the surface? What kind of double talk is that? If it's a polar molecule all that means in layman's terms is it'll stick well and any ester based oil is polar. If it has moly in it they'll be some "plating" action that results in an EP (extreme pressure) film but it's still a film. And EP adds are usually reserved for use in EP applications like gearing where the applied loading versus surface area is small.
Russia? Have you ever been to the former soviet union? If you'd had especially during the early 90s you'd know better than to post that angle. Even when I'm there today I marvel at how they can get even the simplest of things done without stealing and copying another country's technology. Ponimau?
I'm still waiting for an explanation of the "positively charged ionic oil molecule" thing.
Btw, you mean Prolong Lubricants? The Prolong Lubricants the Federal Trade Commission came down hard on a few years ago for misrepresentation? That Prolong?
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Hmmm...I thought Prolong was a sex lube...LOL
Seriously though, Donny do you mean this FTC Decision & Order on Prolong Super Lubricants, Inc :
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/prodecis.html
Is this an FTC conspiracy to keep this product off the market too? :runaway:
Seriously though, Donny do you mean this FTC Decision & Order on Prolong Super Lubricants, Inc :
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/prodecis.html
Is this an FTC conspiracy to keep this product off the market too? :runaway:
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jdub said:(snip)
Now having said all that...if you use a true synthetic (Group IV or V) oil, you will have very little need for additives. These oils are at the top of the lubrication game (especially the Group V ester based). You run one of these oils and you will be amazed if you tear the motor down...it will be as clean as the day it was built inside. What I think is a good idea is to run the German Castrol 0W-30 (a Group IV - PAO base) with a 1/2 quart of an ester based oil (like Red Line) as a seal conditioner. Is it necessary? Probably not, but it makes me feel better having the ester in there
I'm not a big advocate of using additives in a well formulated oil.
(snip)
John, can you name some group V synthetic oils for me, just for reference?
It looks like this thread may be ending soon enough...
starscream5000 said:John, can you name some group V synthetic oils for me, just for reference?
It looks like this thread may be ending soon enough...
Red Line is Group V...any ester (POE) based oil falls into that category.
I beleive they got in trouble in 1999, before they aquired their patented AFTM formula. Is it possible to get snake oil(an oil that does nothing) patented for automotive use? You guys are happily ignoring quality evidence here.jdub said:
tekdeus said:
i'd imagine it is. take a spin through some of the patents issued....plenty of lame stuff in there. besides, just because it's patented doesn't make it WORK....
Sure, I may see things in a simple way. But if a product can do what it does on my personal test equipment, and not be corrosive, then that IS the next big thing in my opinion, and I will use it and recommend it to others. If the product still works like it does after 3 months of use in my engine, then I feel it is stable. Spaniard ran a porsche for an hour with no oil on video, which should be viewable soon. I know it works, as do the people who use it. Those who knock it, haven't played with the product and are free to not use it, but should have the courtesy to avoid calling us believers liars or brainwashed idiots, seriously guys. It is very insulting to boldly assume that I am a fraud for promoting a product that works for me and every single other Supra owner who has tried it.
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