Psh SuperPerformance right heerrre http://videos.streetfire.net/search/viper/0/03f6b618-ef1b-4bfb-ac05-9891000d8cc1.htm
7M Block is better than 2JZ Block
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Info for some:
Stay away from the VVTI 2jzge - the rods are different. They are smaller/more flimsy.
Stay away from the VVTI 2jzge - the rods are different. They are smaller/more flimsy.
Adjuster
Supramania Contributor
Yep, like that viper motor is stock.. NOT!
The V10 Dodge motor does not make the same levels of power per displacement than the LS engine's.
If you could get a 7.0L 4 valve per cyc gas V8, it would likely make more power than a pushrod two valve per cyc engine. (All things being equal, the engine that breaths the best, makes the most power. The fact is GM has a pushrod engine that flows very well, and thus it makes power.)
Flow improvements on our 3.0 motors along with the inherently good design anyway, and forced induction make the most of what we have. (Same goes for the viper in the video, it's under boost, and under pressure, you can get around many design flaws like the Dodge V10 to begin with.)
What is that thing? 8.0L stock? And at that point is rated at 500hp/500tq. A real tractor motor for sure. A beast. But not very sophisticated IMHO. (I have to admit, I've never driven one, but have read many reviews, and pretty much to a man they read that the thing is a brute, but also is like living with a brute. Not as much fun as other cars just as fast when stock.)
Would a twin turbo Z06 be just as fast or faster? I don't know, but I bet it would be very close indeed.
The V10 Dodge motor does not make the same levels of power per displacement than the LS engine's.
If you could get a 7.0L 4 valve per cyc gas V8, it would likely make more power than a pushrod two valve per cyc engine. (All things being equal, the engine that breaths the best, makes the most power. The fact is GM has a pushrod engine that flows very well, and thus it makes power.)
Flow improvements on our 3.0 motors along with the inherently good design anyway, and forced induction make the most of what we have. (Same goes for the viper in the video, it's under boost, and under pressure, you can get around many design flaws like the Dodge V10 to begin with.)
What is that thing? 8.0L stock? And at that point is rated at 500hp/500tq. A real tractor motor for sure. A beast. But not very sophisticated IMHO. (I have to admit, I've never driven one, but have read many reviews, and pretty much to a man they read that the thing is a brute, but also is like living with a brute. Not as much fun as other cars just as fast when stock.)
Would a twin turbo Z06 be just as fast or faster? I don't know, but I bet it would be very close indeed.
89supturbo said:
pi/4 * bore^2 * stroke * # of cylinders sound familiar, smart guy? We call that displacement. Area of the circle (the bore) * the height (stroke) * the number of the cylinders you have equals total swept volume of all cylinders.
89supturbo said:
Hate to break it to you, but VE is nothing more than a comparison of actual air ingested vs theoretical maximum (which, in a 4 stroke engine, is equal to 1/2 of the total displacement). VE represents the ability of the engine's breathing vs maximum theoretical air intake per crankshaft rotation.
You are correct though. Tuning valve timing, spark timing, head flow, exhaust flow, and intake flow will result in higher VE, and more power.
Now as a side note, 100% VE is *not* the maximum you can have - due to intake pulses, it is very possible to have a slight 'supercharging' effect if the intake is tuned right.
89supturbo said:
STOCK, the 2JZ does have better VE. Once you tear into the engine, everything is thrown out, and all bets are off.
89supturbo said:
You'll find ASE certs aren't worth using to clean the oil up from under my leaking rear main. You can get ASE certs through Autozone for crying out loud!
Experience plays an incredible role in the real world
Moving on from that little rant (hey, it irked me) -
Why is everyone so hung up on valve sizing? All I hear are 'omg +1mm! +1.5mm! +4087235mm! YAY!' and well, it's annoying. I made better power on my Pontiac 354 with 1.94" intake, and 1.66" exhaust valves, than 2.11"/1.77" exhaust valves.
Want to know why? Valve shrouding. Also, the ports in the head lost too much velocity. Yes, everyone thinks that gets thrown out the window on a boosted motor - but that is simply not the case. The air charge is DENSER, yes - @ 14.7psi of boost, it's about 2x as dense. Guess what? Fluid dynamics does NOT suddenly take a back seat! A properly tuned head and intake will outflow a poorly tuned one, that has simply had parts thrown at it.
Adjuster, look up the LT5 sometime
So doward, this is what you said in this thread:
And you said the EXACT OPPOSITE in the "quote from a machinist" thread....
So which one is it? Do you just change the laws of physics to make your 7M faster? I wish my ASE card could do that!
Why dont you just accept the fact that the 2j is a better engine than the 7M? I can understand the 1J/7M argument, but this one just doesnt make sense man.
And you said the EXACT OPPOSITE in the "quote from a machinist" thread....
So which one is it? Do you just change the laws of physics to make your 7M faster? I wish my ASE card could do that!
Why dont you just accept the fact that the 2j is a better engine than the 7M? I can understand the 1J/7M argument, but this one just doesnt make sense man.
BWAHAHAHA:biglaugh: :biglaugh:p5150 said:
I actually had to check and make sure I wasn't still sitting in high school.
I can't believe you are actually gonna give figgie (who I support in this, BTW) a hard time because he made 'only' 520 rwhp on a 7M.
Not many people do that nowadays considering all the MkIII owners who want to take the cheap way out of everything.
This is starting to sound like the whole Nissan 240SX deal, "Aw man, KA24s are gay, SR20 FTW, you're only cool if you have a swap."
Sure, a MkIII with a 2J swap is cool now and then, but what, are we all gonna swap one in now because you're telling us how bad the 7M is?
I'll stick to the 7M and do it the right way....Look at Duane, Nate and Ron R...They don't seem to be doing too bad.
EdgeSupra said:
If you go back and read the post preceeding my statement, you will see why I called Figgie "gay". He was trying to worm out of a source he quoted to prove that RODS werent needed that was TOTALLY NOT WHAT HE SAID IT WAS. Go back and read it again. He has had a tendency to post some misinfo to suit his argument lately, maybe you should look here: http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?p=469578#post469578
Yeah, Duane and Nate have really nice rides. Their engines are very will built and im sure that they will last and last.
But they most certainly didnt pay $400 for their engine.
And why is Ron R swapping in a 2J? I honestly dont know. Did he reach the plateau of the BUILT 7M or is he just itching for another outstanding project?
Im not saying the 7M is BAD; im saying that when comparing to the cost of building up a 7M to the cost of a 2jzgeT with a headgasket you come out on top with the 2J above 500HP.
The 2J is no doubt a seriously great motor, probably THE best. I absolutely agree.
But I'm not looking for best-bang-for-my-buck type stuff. I guess it's the challenge of building a reliable, higher-horsepower 7M that I'm looking for right now.
When all's said and done, if I were to add up the costs of a 500hp 2J and a 500hp 7M, the 2J could very well be cheaper. But for me, it's the satisfaction of sitting back when it's all done and saying "I just built that thing, and I love it....and if it breaks, I'll fix it."
But I'm not looking for best-bang-for-my-buck type stuff. I guess it's the challenge of building a reliable, higher-horsepower 7M that I'm looking for right now.
When all's said and done, if I were to add up the costs of a 500hp 2J and a 500hp 7M, the 2J could very well be cheaper. But for me, it's the satisfaction of sitting back when it's all done and saying "I just built that thing, and I love it....and if it breaks, I'll fix it."
p5150 said:
Which is it? Is it the '...obsessed with the size of the valves in the JZ vs 7M head, and I'm telling you that a properly built induction/exhaust system, designed AROUND the head, will yield better results than just throwing money at the problem.' or the 'A properly tuned head and intake will outflow a poorly tuned one, that has simply had parts thrown at it.'
Parts = money. A properly designed system will produce more power than one that you just throw parts at. A properly designed system does not include just picking the biggest parts you can find to throw at it. I mention it because you keep yelling about how the JZ series valves are larger than the M series. Larger does not always mean more power.
Here's an even bigger one - better flowing on a bench, also does not equate to more power.
Do you not understand English? I said the same thing both times - a properly designed system that actually pays attention to fluid dynamics will outflow a system that has simply had more money thrown at it.
I'm sorry, man, but your attacks on figgie - calling someone 'gay' - simply show myself and others that your maturity level is found to be... well, lacking.
Time is money, and the time of swapping in the 2JZ-GE, figuring out the wiring, and so forth, isn't worth it, imho. It's just that, though - MY OPINION. YMMV.
I believe I'm done with this thread.
Doward said:I believe I'm done with this thread.
You should be because you proved nothing. A few times you repeated what somebody said and just reworded it. And another thing, you can not get an ASE cert for DIAGNOSTIC REPAIR from Autozone. But ASE decided to test for basic parts knowledge also. They are not the same. If you understand the science of automotive, you can pass the diagnostic tests.
p5150 said:
I can agree with you when you put the words the way you have done in this post. Dollar for dollar, the other engine is a better buy.
Nope I didn't pay 400 bucks for mine.:nono: LOL
The reason is simple with Ron (he is a personal friend of mine and I work on cars with him frequently) He is just doing something different as you had mentioned. His 7M was only on low boost and A/F's were in the low 10's. His 7M is also one of the best if not the best out there which is why I have the exact copy of it
All in all, do what you choose and be happy. I just get sick of the 7M is crap over and over when I have proven countless times that it is and CAN be reliable as mine has been
Duane
upgradedsupra said:I can agree with you when you put the words the way you have done in this post. Dollar for dollar, the other engine is a better buy.
Nope I didn't pay 400 bucks for mine.:nono: LOL
The reason is simple with Ron (he is a personal friend of mine and I work on cars with him frequently) He is just doing something different as you had mentioned. His 7M was only on low boost and A/F's were in the low 10's. His 7M is also one of the best if not the best out there which is why I have the exact copy of it
All in all, do what you choose and be happy. I just get sick of the 7M is crap over and over when I have proven countless times that it is and CAN be reliable as mine has been
Duane
Thanks Duane - It just seems like people take it personal when somebody suggests that a JZ series block may be a better decision. I think its because it seems really exotic and almost unnatural in a sense.....
Yeah - I never said the 7M is crap - its actually a very capable motor; I killed my share of Rustangs with my stock block and Downpipe/shims :biglaugh: And built, it can really make some power. I was always curious as to how much power your motor or Rons would put down before it went. BUT, thats not something I suggest you try unless you have some terminal illness......
Nick M said:
Thanks NickM - although we may have some political/world view differences we see eye to eye (or at least one eye to one eye) about this topic.:biglaugh:
I have many hippie friends. If ASE is so simple, lets see who can pass engine performance (which has nothing to do with modding) besides jetjock. Engine performance deals with computerized engine control systems mostly. And then, you still are not ASE certified, as it requires 2 years EXPERIENCE in the PROFESSIONAL field. That means an employer pays you to repair the cars.p5150 said:
Guys who have a 7M do not worry it is a good as a 2JZ.
I can proove my engine that till now with only 39 psi of boost I have 1340Hp I have another 10 psi more to give and then Nitrus.
I ran 7.44sec with my car and next year with the same boost hoping for a 7.1-7.2 run.Wit a bit more boost then we will run hi 6 sec run.The engine is reaible like the 2JZ AND WHAT THE 2jz monster engines will do I will do.
I have all the proves...THE 7M IS EQUAL POWER TO THE 2JZ
Buy the right parts and you have the right engine
I can proove my engine that till now with only 39 psi of boost I have 1340Hp I have another 10 psi more to give and then Nitrus.
I ran 7.44sec with my car and next year with the same boost hoping for a 7.1-7.2 run.Wit a bit more boost then we will run hi 6 sec run.The engine is reaible like the 2JZ AND WHAT THE 2jz monster engines will do I will do.
I have all the proves...THE 7M IS EQUAL POWER TO THE 2JZ
Buy the right parts and you have the right engine
p5150 said:
How long does it have to run for you to count it as reliable? Mine has over 10 dyno runs at 600 plus rwhp and still has 170 psi through all the cylinders and 15 to 20 psi of oil pressure at idle plus 40 psi at 2800 rpm. It has over 30 passes down the track and another 30 dyno runs at or over 500 rwhp and has been doing that for 2 years before I pulled it apart for a bigger build. It is all stock inside with the exception of an HKS 1.2 mm headgasket and ARP bolts torqued to 80 ft/lbs. I did balance and blueprint it though.
Sean
X-man said:
I think that would be long enough LOL
What did you do to your oil system? Just wondering because the TSRM spec for idle is ~5psi.
Could you tell us some more about your setup? Sound like you have taken good care of it.
How are you doing the fuel management?
p5150 said:
I installed a new oil pump and kept all my clearances at .0015 on the rods and mains. I made sure every oil passage was open and everything was cleaned to within an inch of it's life. As Figgie stated above you can never pay to close attention to specs and detail. At 600 rpm warm it help 10 to 12 psi I now keep the idle at 900 rpm as I get a more consistant voltage reading from the alternator and my oil psi stays at 17 to 20 psi warm. I also run 20W50 Castrol GTX engine oil.
All of this was done on a VPC, S-AFC, ITC and 680 inj. combo and an SP67 turbo with a .68 and .81 a/r on a p trim and an HKS cast long runner manifold. I have now gone to an AEM with 1000 cc inj. and a GT4202 turbo with an S trim and a 1.01 a/r.
The engine is still stock inside and we shall see what it will take on the dyno. Externally it has a FFI intake, Q45 throttle body, stainless header, 3 inch aluminum IC piping from turbo to IC and 3.5 inch steel IC piping from IC tp throttle body, and a 4 inch exhaust system. I built all of it except the throttle body in my shop at my house so we'll see how it goes.
Sean
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