WHICH ENGINE SHOULD I GO WITH?

[bigaaron]

All you guys switching to a 1JZ for great reliability are going to be in for an unpleasant surprise. From what I have seen, two comman flaws on the 1JZ'z are leaking stock fuel injectors and a crank pulley that breaks off. Both happened to my freind's 55k mile 1JZ engine. Yeah, its no big deal for the mechanically inclined, but for others it can be a headace.

From my experience, the 7M has two major flaws. The headgasket (of coarse). And the lack of proper maintanance from cheap owners. If I were just starting out with the MK3, the first thing I would do is rebuild the 7M at a reputable shop, because its just to risky to try modifying a potentially abused motor.

Of course 1jz engines have parts that can fail, just like with any used engine over 10 years old that makes the kind of horsepower ours do, BUT, the 1jz issues are all external parts that are easy to replace and don't require going inside the engine. Changing a crank pulley is something you could do while doing the swap if you know it is a issue. Even on the car changing a crank pulley and injectors is a project a novice could tackle without much trouble. When novices try a headgasket job it usually does not go so well.

Whenever I talk 1jz vs 7m reliability I am talking about a 7m making at least the same power and performance as a stock 1jz, and that takes some upgrades.

Even though I own a 7m that has been around 370whp or more for the last couple years and I love it, I will be happy to point out that it is a labor of love and comes with plenty of headaches.
Much of that is from the constant modifications I have been doing though, the internals have been no problem.

Ask Duane, Nate, IJ, or any of the other people who make big power with a 7m if it was cheap or easy? I can't speak for them, but I think part of the fun is the challenge of making the 7m make big power. They could have dropped a 2jz in with the right turbo and upgrades and make 800+ whp without even going inside the engine, but making a 7m make even 600+whp is a serious accomplishment that people can appreciate.

There are some 7m nutswingers who can't ever hear anything bad about their beloved engine, and they seem to be out of touch with reality. That is where these discussions go bad, when people can't take a good objective look at both sides and feel they need to take sides and defend their engine of choice.

 

[Idealsupra]

Changing headgasket and ARP bolts does not constitute to a "build"
If you take a headgasket replacement work to any mechanic, minimum charge for the 7m is $1000. Unless you can do it on your own.
The guys here are not talking about changing head gaskets and arp bolts, because for 400, you can do the same for a 1jz engine as well.

you should have read the posts from the beginning to see what led us to this conversation before blurting out like that.

i did read everything beforehand.....and what he said had nothing do with a build. his comment was complete.

either way im over that.

i do want address this though:

Whenever I talk 1jz vs 7m reliability I am talking about a 7m making at least the same power and performance as a stock 1jz, and that takes some upgrades.

now when i read this im assuming you mean getting the same stock power of a 1jz out of a 7m and that takes upgrades? if not then disregard this but.....

ive noticed the main difference in power between the two engines supposed starting point (230 vs 280... 50hp) is the boost levels. the 7m is at 7psi and the 1jz is at 11-12 isnt it? ok so turn up the boost on the 7m to another 4-5psi and with the rule of thumb for psi (variables thrown out) you have about the same hp.

and the 7m can handle the extra psi just fine....maybe the hg but this is a given in any conversation.

kelly had her "stock" 1jz with intake exhaust boost controller and afc make 302 at i believe she was at 14-15psi. my "stock" 7m with intake exhaust boost controller afc and ignition wires did 281 at 10psi while hitting fuel cut around 5k.

thats 20hp difference and the boost levels were still very different. obviously boost levels arent 100% comparable but the point still remains.

anyways.... for the record i like both engines...and ive worked on both engines...and ive driven both engines...so this isnt someone who 7m nutswings and hasnt even laid eyes on a 1j before spouting shit.

 

[bigaaron]

i did read everything beforehand.....and what he said had nothing do with a build. his comment was complete.

either way im over that.

i do want address this though:



now when i read this im assuming you mean getting the same stock power of a 1jz out of a 7m and that takes upgrades? if not then disregard this but.....

ive noticed the main difference in power between the two engines supposed starting point (230 vs 280... 50hp) is the boost levels. the 7m is at 7psi and the 1jz is at 11-12 isnt it? ok so turn up the boost on the 7m to another 4-5psi and with the rule of thumb for psi (variables thrown out) you have about the same hp.

and the 7m can handle the extra psi just fine....maybe the hg but this is a given in any conversation.

kelly had her "stock" 1jz with intake exhaust boost controller and afc make 302 at i believe she was at 14-15psi. my "stock" 7m with intake exhaust boost controller afc and ignition wires did 281 at 10psi while hitting fuel cut around 5k.

thats 20hp difference and the boost levels were still very different. obviously boost levels arent 100% comparable but the point still remains.

anyways.... for the record i like both engines...and ive worked on both engines...and ive driven both engines...so this isnt someone who 7m nutswings and hasnt even laid eyes on a 1j before spouting shit.

If the only thing you notice between a stock 280whp 1jz and a stock 7m with a little higher boost making 280whp is the power output then you are a lost cause and I AM going to add you to my ignore list.

How about:
throttle response?
turbo lag?
the redline?
how smooth it feels?
how it sounds?
how it looks?

 

[IJ.]

Show me a 550+ rwhp 7M making that power daily!

NOT a dyno queen that gets a tank of race gas/xx boost for 2>3 pulls on a dyno but one that makes the power each and every time it's driven?

It's a BIG ask trying to get the longevity from a 3.0L 550+ 7M motor!

Even the big guys while it's not very well documented have lost motors trying!

Anyone that tells you it's easy and just a matter of bolting a few parts on is either a shit talker or has never actually done it and lived with the motor for longer than a week!

 

[Idealsupra]

lol aaron....again reading comprehension my friend.... i said POWER WISE...not overall... give me a break.

and IJ no one ever said it was easy.... but it can be done and for about the same price as a 1j swap.

im done here....there no point...different strokes different folks. myself included of course.

 

[IJ.]

Jayson: Plenty of people are strutting around saying/thinking it's easy!

Wasn't talking about this thread in particular!

 

[Idealsupra]

Jayson: Plenty of people are strutting around saying/thinking it's easy!

Wasn't talking about this thread in particular!

ah ok...i thought you were talking about me saying it was easy...which i never have....

 

[IJ.]

Ummmm nope if I were saying that I would have said "Jayson: blah blah blah"

There just seems to be a mind set that because a 2JZ with a few bolton's can make 800 on a stock block a 500+ 7M should be "easy"

 

[SublimeSupra]

If built right any motor can handle power.Again dont have anyone hold your hand through this opperation read and check out as much as you can and decide for yourself.The car world is about diversaty if it wasnt i would buy a electric car and call it a day.And is you want read my sig IJ helped me with it

 

[OneJoeZee]

i did read everything beforehand.....and what he said had nothing do with a build. his comment was complete.

either way im over that.

i do want address this though:



now when i read this im assuming you mean getting the same stock power of a 1jz out of a 7m and that takes upgrades? if not then disregard this but.....

ive noticed the main difference in power between the two engines supposed starting point (230 vs 280... 50hp) is the boost levels. the 7m is at 7psi and the 1jz is at 11-12 isnt it? ok so turn up the boost on the 7m to another 4-5psi and with the rule of thumb for psi (variables thrown out) you have about the same hp.

and the 7m can handle the extra psi just fine....maybe the hg but this is a given in any conversation.

kelly had her "stock" 1jz with intake exhaust boost controller and afc make 302 at i believe she was at 14-15psi. my "stock" 7m with intake exhaust boost controller afc and ignition wires did 281 at 10psi while hitting fuel cut around 5k.

thats 20hp difference and the boost levels were still very different. obviously boost levels arent 100% comparable but the point still remains.

anyways.... for the record i like both engines...and ive worked on both engines...and ive driven both engines...so this isnt someone who 7m nutswings and hasnt even laid eyes on a 1j before spouting shit.

bone stock 1J is not at 12psi. Good guess though. try 9-10

uh, I ran my 7M at 14psi. My 1J is running about the same. The power difference the first time I drove the car was night and day.

 

[MRSUPRA]

"There just seems to be a mind set that because a 2JZ with a few bolton's can make 800 on a stock block a 500+ 7M should be "easy""


And I would love to see these 2J's with a few bolt-ons make 800hp. Thats about the biggest misconseption there is in supraland.

 

[IJ.]

"There just seems to be a mind set that because a 2JZ with a few bolton's can make 800 on a stock block a 500+ 7M should be "easy""


And I would love to see these 2J's with a few bolt-ons make 800hp. Thats about the biggest misconseption there is in supraland.

Yep that was a bit of a generalisation but there have been quite a few 2JZ's posted on SF making 7>800 on a stock bottom end.......:nono:

 

[rakkasan]

And I would love to see these 2J's with a few bolt-ons make 800hp. Thats about the biggest misconseption there is in supraland.

Talk to Whiskey on SF, Turbo, fuel, hardpipes & fuel = 820rwhp, all else stock, IIRC.

 

[IJ.]

Quite a few of the heavy hitters with 7M's have had undocumented failures and this is starting from a very good knowledge base of what works ie: Fuel system and so on with Gas as a fuel.

Each time I run my car I'm breaking new ground as I don't know of any other LPG fueled Mk3's let alone any that run 500+ so I tend to post up when I break things so I can get input from others!

 

[MRSUPRA]

Yes. And I see a lot of people with 7M's do unnecessary mods that just add more expense. X-Man did 639rwhp on a stock long block 7M with a little 67mm. Will Neeley did 733rwhp on a T66 and NOS on the stock intake manifold but with head work. Its seems that a lot of the guys who were really pushing the limits like Will, HighPSI, and MellowYellow are all gone on to different cars now.

Rakkan, did Whiskey make 820rwhp on stock cams? And what size turbo did he use? I would imagine it is at least a 76mm. I don't see many MK3's running very large turbos because of the fear of lag. Also. 820rwhp is really starting to push it on a stock bottom end, thats not even reccomended on a 2JZ.

I may go with a 67mmDBB turbo and push for 650rwhp with a built bottom end and some light head work, but I don't and will not throw on a big laggy turbo just to prove I can make big dyno numbers like the 2JZ.

 

[figgie]

Yes. And I see a lot of people with 7M's do unnecessary mods that just add more expense. X-Man did 639rwhp on a stock long block 7M with a little 67mm. Will Neeley did 733rwhp on a T66 and NOS on the stock intake manifold but with head work. Its seems that a lot of the guys who were really pushing the limits like Will, HighPSI, and MellowYellow are all gone on to different cars now.

Rakkan, did Whiskey make 820rwhp on stock cams? And what size turbo did he use? I would imagine it is at least a 76mm. I don't see many MK3's running very large turbos because of the fear of lag. Also. 820rwhp is really starting to push it on a stock bottom end, thats not even reccomended on a 2JZ.

I may go with a 67mmDBB turbo and push for 650rwhp with a built bottom end and some light head work, but I don't and will not throw on a big laggy turbo just to prove I can make big dyno numbers like the 2JZ.

WOAH WOAH WOAH!!!

Not for anything but Will Neely went through about half a dozen ENGINES before reaching his goals. Sorry man that is NOT the way to do it.

 

[MRSUPRA]

OOkk... ITs rocket science:icon_conf

 

[figgie]

OOkk... ITs rocket science:icon_conf

no it is not either, but if you don't have the right tools then expect headaches in the process.

See why Duane hasn't grenaded his motor like Will did

 

[IJ.]

MrSupra: Looking forward to following your progress with 650 in a build thread maybe?

 

[corylee316]

My .02 only.....If a budget is in mind at all wouldn't a 7M rebuild be cheaper in the vein that there wouldn't be any cost outside of the rebuild itself? If a budget is not in the way it would depend entirely on future goals. When/if my N/A goes there will be a turbo swap but I will stay with 7M for simplicity. Budget concious dosen't mean cheap, it just means that if you can do the same paying less that will be the route.