Religion rant (if easily offended, should probably not enter)

[Kai]

Lets put an end to this now - I AM GOD ALMIGHTY AND I SAY YOU MUST ALL EAT PEANUT BUTTER!

 

[swaq]

Ok, so I got into a HEATED argument about religion with one of my friends. Well I guess not so much religion as creation vs evolution. Now I'm not the least bit religious AT ALL, but I don't really care if someone decides to believe in it, but why is it that all of my so called "friends" that are Christian feel the need to tell me I'm going to hell for denying God's love. If he love's me so much, why would he want to burn in hell for all of eternity?

Well, anyways he was on a message board for our school and saw a video of Ann Coulter (who I usually unline except for in this instance) talking about how liberals are "godless" Video link

In the video she talks about how Darwinism is a crock and how liberals aren't trying to argue against her and blah blah blah. Well my friend was like "I totally agree! Who in their right mind can believe that we evolved from apes or that nature selects species for extinction! People who believe in this are idiots and they'll get theirs when judgement comes!" (something like that)

WTF!? How is evolution such a far fetched idea...but yet believing in some grand being that decided magically that it wanted to create oh I don't know..everything in existence, so much more believable? I usually can stay pretty calm, but I was seriously about to kick his ass tonight. :icon_evil


So I really don't get it! Could a believer please explain some stuff to me?! How is having faith in a god and believing he created everything more plausible than something that you can observe (natural selection, survival of the fittest, even evolution of species) and administer a scientific method to?? What created God? Is what created God...God^2?? What about what created God's God?? Where the hell do they exist...in magical God land?

I'm not trying to start a flamewar or anything, and I hope this turns out to be a good discussion, but I seriously don't get it. I'm so pissed off right now that tomorrow I'm gonna go pick up a bible and read the damn thing to see how it decides to "explain" things, then I'm gonna have this discussion with him again!!! :rant: :rant:


Please don't Christian bash and please don't Atheist/Agnostic bash. I seriously just want to know why creation is a more plausible idea than evolution by someone who belives it

I usually don't join these threads but I like the way you posed your questions. They are very good questions and should never be taken light heartedly.

Nick covered the "why would God want you to burn in hell" part pretty well.

It bothers me when Christians get all judgemental say "you're gonna burn in hell" or something along those lines. If I were a non-Christian and someone said that to me I'd be completely turned off and would not listen to anything else they had to say. Christianity is not about following God just so he won't send you to hell...

I have a few books I like to recommend to people who are seriously interested in seeking answers about why Christianity isn't like every other religion and about evolution/creationism. The first two were written by a non-Christian (at the time) journalist who went about trying to "determine if there's credible evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really is the Son of God." He takes an incredibly cynical approach, asking the experts tons of really hard questions (like yours).

The author is Lee Strobel and his books are The Case For Christ and The Case For Faith. The first book explores evidence for Jesus really being the son of God, and the second looks at the credibility of Christianity in general (e.g. whether the Bible is reliable, creationism vs. evolutionism, etc.).

For a book all about evolution I'd highly recommend Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe (a non-Christian). I've only read an excerpt from this book, but it looked very interesting and I'd like to read all it sometime if I get the chance.

I'd suggest reading the Lee Strobel books first as they are easier reading. The very least you'd get out of reading these books is a better insight on Christian views, which would answer your questions.

[edit] Adding links:
Case for Christ: http://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-J...=pd_bbs_1/002-0924858-7596868?ie=UTF8&s=books
Case for Faith: http://www.amazon.com/Case-Faith-Jo...=pd_bbs_2/002-0924858-7596868?ie=UTF8&s=books
[/edit]

 

[MDCmotorsports]

If you're sending a part of yourself to a place that you created, it would just make logical sense. If he can't fix the problems he created from the place he created everything from and has to send a part of himself here, then that means he probably couldn't have created everything from some other place, but had to have walked the Earth.

For if he could have fixed his problems from some other place then Jesus would not have been necessary. But if he couldn't have fixed his problems from somewhere else, than some other kind of proxy (maybe even himself) would have to have been here too in order to create everything the first time

Im not sure where you're going with this but at the same time I don't know the "rules" of the All Knowing.

Frankly, there was a point that God himself was about to detroy EVERY THING HE HAD CREATED due to the fact it had all gone against him.

Jesus Christ (not sure how Jesus was created, elected etc etc) then came into the picture to save us from the wrath of God.

(Yes God gets pissed off)

 

[foreverpsycotic]

Well again, there are some Christians who are willing to "splurge" on this. You don't teach evolution in school, and I don't teach Christianity.

And really they are right. It should be tought at home. If it was, you wouldn't have the highest abortion rate and underage pregnancies in the world all here in the USA.

at least when i went to school(dont know about it now) teachers didnt force you to believe in said theory, they just wanted you to understand it so they could test you on it. i get told a lot of things in school, do i believe all of them no, especially in psych and plilosophy

 

[MDCmotorsports]

Lets put an end to this now - I AM GOD ALMIGHTY AND I SAY YOU MUST ALL EAT PEANUT BUTTER!

Walking in hot shoes my friend, but yes peanut butter is quite tasty.

 

[SupraDerk]

different types of teaching my friend. religion is mainly advotated by parents of X religion wanting their children to be of X religion, and then spend the rest of the childs life pounding it in their heads. whereas dawrins theory is tought in schools by teachers who are TOLD what to teach by the board of edumacation.

The U.S. is a country founded on Christian principles. "In God we trust" is on our currency. It's not just being taught at homes by parents. And evolution can still be seen through fossil records. Evoultion in itself has no problems, but if you talk about if it is where we all came from, then maybe that part shouldn't be taught in schools as I'm not 100% sure (more like 99%) it is where we came from though

 

[swaq]

Hehe, I thought Jesus was the son of God. :naughty:

But still, if God created everything, why would he send himself to the Earth to try and fix problems that he created? Wouldn't that mean he had to have walked the Earth previously in order to create it? Does the bible say he walked the Earth? And if he didn't walk the Earth in order to create it, why would he send himself through jesus in order to fix what he created? Couldn't he do that from where ever it is he created everythng from?

That's a good question that has been asked a lot. If God created everything so that nothing could go wrong and everyone would go to heaven then there would be no free will for us. If there was no free will then we wouldn't be able to choose against God and we'd just be toys. There was some C.S. Lewis book that talked a lot about this but I forget which one now...

 

[MDCmotorsports]

To throw in - When you take on the responsibility of being a Christian, its not your duty to force any thing down any ones' throat. IT IS YOUR DUTY to at least tell them that Christ is the truth, the way, and the light.

The path is narrow, and the problems and temptations many - but it is the only path.

After said that, I can do nothing more than have an ordinary afternoon of converstation with you about the bees, your favorite car, or even peanut butter.

It is up to you to either research or investigate what I have told you. I plant the seed - you either cut the tree down or water it.

 

[SupraDerk]

Im not sure where you're going with this but at the same time I don't know the "rules" of the All Knowing.

Frankly, there was a point that God himself was about to detroy EVERY THING HE HAD CREATED due to the fact it had all gone against him.

Jesus Christ (not sure how Jesus was created, elected etc etc) then came into the picture to save us from the wrath of God.

(Yes God gets pissed off)

Haha, yeah I guess it might be a little hard to follow. The point I was trying to make was that I don't see Jesus as being necessary, because God should be able to fix problems himself if he created everything. Why wouldn't he just create us to be able to tolerate hearing and seeing him?

 

[MDCmotorsports]

The U.S. is a country founded on Christian principles. "In God we trust" is on our currency. It's not just being taught at homes by parents. And evolution can still be seen through fossil records. Evoultion in itself has no problems, but if you talk about if it is where we all came from, then maybe that part shouldn't be taught in schools as I'm not 100% sure (more like 99%) it is where we came from though

True. Every one else can debate this untill they are blue in the face.

As for evolution having "no problems"?

REALLY?

Then tell me how in the world Dolphins evolved from prehistoric wolves?

Evolution, the Discover Channel and Animal plannet tells us so.

I see a big problem with that since its never been recreated in a lab.

 

[Kai]

*puts shoes in the freezer*

 

[MDCmotorsports]

Haha, yeah I guess it might be a little hard to follow. The point I was trying to make was that I don't see Jesus as being necessary, because God should be able to fix problems himself if he created everything. Why wouldn't he just create us to be able to tolerate hearing and seeing him?

Well the only answer I have for you is we were meant to be with God and have a relationship with him.

We were ignorant to a point when Adam and Eve were created.

When they ate from the tree of knowledge - we distanced ourself from God and were no longer holy enough to stand or see his presence.

 

[SupraDerk]

That's a good question that has been asked a lot. If God created everything so that nothing could go wrong and everyone would go to heaven then there would be no free will for us. If there was no free will then we wouldn't be able to choose against God and we'd just be toys. There was some C.S. Lewis book that talked a lot about this but I forget which one now...

I'm gonna have to check out some of those books you recommded


But why would God let us choose? Why not just make it so that we love our creator? Isn't it kind of sick and cruel to play favorites with the ones who chose you and let them live an eternity of happiness while you watch those that didn't burn forever? I just don't see the point in creating something like free will if you're creating something. What purpose does it serve?

 

[Nick M]

As for evolution, the reason why they attack it is because they understand it, and it makes their religious base of 'god created everything' look like a steaming pile of shit. They cannot and will not accept that there wasn't some all powerful being that pooped us all into existence. Remember when they argued vehemently that the earth was only 5000 years old? That got shot down pretty damn quick by people that actually HAD A CLUE and had evidence to back it up not just 'but the bible says' bollocks.


</rant></GRR!>

If you would like an internet beat down in a different thread, let me know. It isn't 5000 years old, it is 6000 years old. There are many dating methods. The only one published is the one that left wants to be true, which is the oldest. Of course it has changed from 4.5 to 12 to 20 billion years, because we don't see evolution happening.

 

[7MA61]

True. Every one else can debate this untill they are blue in the face.

As for evolution having "no problems"?

REALLY?

Then tell me how in the world Dolphins evolved from prehistoric wolves?

Evolution, the Discover Channel and Animal plannet tells us so.

I see a big problem with that since its never been recreated in a lab.

Look at the human genome and then look at the genome of a mouse, there isn't much that differs, this supports theory that we all came from the same original single celled organisms and due to natural selection different species have evolved.

 

[MDCmotorsports]

I'm gonna have to check out some of those books you recommded


But why would God let us choose? Why not just make it so that we love our creator? Isn't it kind of sick and cruel to play favorites with the ones who chose you and let them live an eternity of happiness while you watch those that didn't burn forever? I just don't see the point in creating something like free will if you're creating something. What purpose does it serve?

If you really sit down and think about it, the greatest love in the world is free love (and I don't mean hippie free love). I mean as in freedom of choice. If you had no choice, then it would be slavery, not love.

The greatest gift in the world to His creation is the choice.

 

[Nick M]

I'm gonna have to check out some of those books you recommded


But why would God let us choose? Why not just make it so that we love our creator? Isn't it kind of sick and cruel to play favorites with the ones who chose you and let them live an eternity of happiness while you watch those that didn't burn forever? I just don't see the point in creating something like free will if you're creating something. What purpose does it serve?

And other on your side complain about being forced to do something. :3d_frown:

How could it be any other way?

 

[Nick M]

Well, who persecuted galileo for suggesting that the earth revolved around the sun? Oh thats right - christians

Here in lies the problem. You are incorrect. He is Christian himself. So is Chris Columbus.

 

[SupraDerk]

Well the only answer I have for you is we were meant to be with God and have a relationship with him.

We were ignorant to a point when Adam and Eve were created.

When they ate from the tree of knowledge - we distanced ourself from God and were no longer holy enough to stand or see his presence.

But Swaq just said God gave us free will in order to choose or not choose him. So if we were meant to be with him, why would he give us the opportunity to burn in hell?

And once Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, couldn't he have just fixed it so that it was like it never happened? He created everything, so couldn't he just turn back the clock a little or tweak them a little and give them back their holiness? (I think I spelled it right , haha)


But about Dolphins from wolves. I don't know if those two are on the same evolutionary path, but I'm sure if you follow the fossil records far enough back you'll see where they'd have a common ancestor

 

[Nick M]

Christianity is a fractured religion with some people being for the most part okay, but plenty being 'preachy' and 'superior'.

If your neighbors house was burning down, would you tell them?