Religion rant (if easily offended, should probably not enter)
- Thread starter SupraDerk
- Start date
Yellow 13 said:
Yes, they do. People use combustible gas detectors to find them because they fart methane, and as we all know, methane is combustible.
JustAnotherVictim
Supramania Contributor
I am ftw. :icon_biggChadMKIII said:And logic joins the debate...
We all know evolution within species occurs. No one can deny that. But one species to another is simply biologically impossible.
Anyway, I haven't really read the original post carefully, nor the rest of this, I was just commenting on some stuff I saw, so- Sorry Derk, this had absolutley nothing to do with your request. When I have time I'll check that out more and see about posting some stuff up.
I see we're on the same page.
Joel: How many people are in this thread?
WeezL, Sorry if I came across like I was trying to force you into believing my POV. That wasn't my intent at all. A little healthy debate to make us think is good for all of us tho
What isn't plausible to me (which, if you study the way DNA and cells, etc work you might understand why) is that a single celled organism could just so happen to create the entire race, when many needed factors (such as amino acids) wouldn't even have been able to exist.
At your request, I'll leave it at that.
WeezL, Sorry if I came across like I was trying to force you into believing my POV. That wasn't my intent at all. A little healthy debate to make us think is good for all of us tho
What isn't plausible to me (which, if you study the way DNA and cells, etc work you might understand why) is that a single celled organism could just so happen to create the entire race, when many needed factors (such as amino acids) wouldn't even have been able to exist.
At your request, I'll leave it at that.
No, I mean how many sides are there here to this topic at hand.. It's not really a trick question..ChadMKIII said:
Ligers and Mules? It's more like smaller steps...imo..
JustAnotherVictim
Supramania Contributor
No. I am not religious either. I am not looking or reaching out for any one or anything. Nor do I particpate in rituals, ceremonies, or other religious things. Evolutionism is a belief much like religion too.
This thread dog piled in a hurry.
That is correct. And it has never been observed. Evolution is a violation of several bilogical scientific laws, such as Mendels laws, that Chad is mentioning.
That's cool because it brings us closer together now... I don't either. If you did? I would not mind or attack your beliefs.Nick M said:
Sorry. :naughty:
Jav: Is that all?
Nick M said:
"Evolutionism" is a term used by anti-evolutionists to further their religeous agenda of getting creationism taught in the public schools. "The Theory of Evolution through natural selection" is a scientific theory almost exclusively accepted among the scientific community.
Comparing "creationism", (a belief as defined: as a conviction to the truth of a proposition without its verification, therefore it is a subjective mental interpretation of the perception results) and the ToE is rediculous and without merit and the supreme court of this country agrees with this...for now at least.
Hey, I'm Furball's brother.
Thought I'd get in here and say a little from a scientific point of view. It sounds like that would be appreciated from both sides of this debate. I would first like to say though, thank you for all that have kept this thread somewhat logical and civilized. Yelling or calling names based on nothing but programed beliefs will accomplish very little.
To start with, I have a Bachelors Degree in Biology with an emphasis in pre-med. I love biology and seeing things from a scientific point of view.
All my textbooks in college were written from a evolutionary point of view. This never caused me to put my brain on a shelf any more than going to church would or reading any other book for that matter. I hope it doesn't for any of you either.
For all my research and organic chemistry, I must admit that I have no idea how thiings would generate out of nothing. Spontaneous generation has been disproven more times than Honda's have eaten the dust of an MkIII. Even with the chance of all right chemicals being present, however, it would still be impossible to even form ANY form of life. The way proponents of evolution typically begin explaining these things is with the infamous Miller/Urey experiment. They found that if they put some ideal chemicals in a vacuum with some electricity running through it, then some amino acids would be formed. Only a couple problems- there was no O2 (atmospheric Oxygen) present, nor were the chemicals allowed contact with liquid water. Two conditions that would HAVE to be present, even if there were such an ideal primordial ooze. Contact with either of these substances would immediately oxidize and destroy any of the amino acids formed as they would have no way of wrapping into a protected helixed position.
ALSO, even if you got all the amino acids you could ever want, where would you get the protein chaperones? Or the DNA transcriptase? Or the reverse transcriptase? Or any of the other 20 odd proteins NECESSARY to form another protein? Can someone explain to me how to make a protein without using other already existing proteins?
PLEASE reply with any ?'s you might have, as I would totally love to discuss any of this or anything else scientific.
Thought I'd get in here and say a little from a scientific point of view. It sounds like that would be appreciated from both sides of this debate. I would first like to say though, thank you for all that have kept this thread somewhat logical and civilized. Yelling or calling names based on nothing but programed beliefs will accomplish very little.
To start with, I have a Bachelors Degree in Biology with an emphasis in pre-med. I love biology and seeing things from a scientific point of view.
All my textbooks in college were written from a evolutionary point of view. This never caused me to put my brain on a shelf any more than going to church would or reading any other book for that matter. I hope it doesn't for any of you either.
For all my research and organic chemistry, I must admit that I have no idea how thiings would generate out of nothing. Spontaneous generation has been disproven more times than Honda's have eaten the dust of an MkIII. Even with the chance of all right chemicals being present, however, it would still be impossible to even form ANY form of life. The way proponents of evolution typically begin explaining these things is with the infamous Miller/Urey experiment. They found that if they put some ideal chemicals in a vacuum with some electricity running through it, then some amino acids would be formed. Only a couple problems- there was no O2 (atmospheric Oxygen) present, nor were the chemicals allowed contact with liquid water. Two conditions that would HAVE to be present, even if there were such an ideal primordial ooze. Contact with either of these substances would immediately oxidize and destroy any of the amino acids formed as they would have no way of wrapping into a protected helixed position.
ALSO, even if you got all the amino acids you could ever want, where would you get the protein chaperones? Or the DNA transcriptase? Or the reverse transcriptase? Or any of the other 20 odd proteins NECESSARY to form another protein? Can someone explain to me how to make a protein without using other already existing proteins?
PLEASE reply with any ?'s you might have, as I would totally love to discuss any of this or anything else scientific.
Nick M said:
wow, you people really dont kave a clue what the ToE is do you?
let me try to make this simple:
two moths land on a tree...one is bright white, one is brown (due to natural variances in biological matter, mutations and genetic mixing)
The brown moth blends in, the white one stands out...the white one gets eaten by a predetor...the brown one goes on to breed and make more brown moths.
lets take it one step further down the evolutionary chain of this species of moth. Lets say for sake of arguement the trees where this moth live suddenly all get burned in a fire....the trunks are all black now. Two new moths land on a tree...one is brown one is a much darker shade of brown....guess who lives to reproduce? guess what color those moths become over a pretty short period of time? Its been observed...its not hypothetical.
Do you think the reptiles on the Galapagos Islands just learned to swim because god thought they should? Do you think snow leapards coats are white because they wanted to be different from the other leapards?
Do you think black people have more melanin in their skin because they they were tired of looking sunburned?
I mean...come on...any rational logical SANE person can see that some "guy in the sky" didnt do that.
hey furballs brother, interesting information and quite honestly not one I have an answer for...except to say that just because I cant explain something doesnt mean I need to make up some story about an all powerful all knnowing entity that made it happen.
I dont understand why some people feel the need to explain every little mystery of life with nothing more than faith.
and I stepped back in here when I said I was done...so now Im done after I say this one last thing.
I am not godless...I just dont believe in the christian fundamentalist view of religion. I dont feel I need to cram my belief system down the throats of others, thinking that god wants me to. Instead I try to instill my values upon people. My most treasured values are peacefulness, tolerance, and kindness. I value all life. Even the life forms I evolved from
I dont understand why some people feel the need to explain every little mystery of life with nothing more than faith.
and I stepped back in here when I said I was done...so now Im done after I say this one last thing.
I am not godless...I just dont believe in the christian fundamentalist view of religion. I dont feel I need to cram my belief system down the throats of others, thinking that god wants me to. Instead I try to instill my values upon people. My most treasured values are peacefulness, tolerance, and kindness. I value all life. Even the life forms I evolved from
theWeezL said:
Oh Dear...
That would be called Natural Selection, not Evolution. There is a difference. And while the 'ToE' is totally wrong, there is some truth to the NS deal.
You completely switch topics half way through. The two moths have the same basic DNA comp, just slightly different traits. Obviously, the ones which help it survive will be selected for more often, but this does not mean that the moth can become a bird.
Moth colors and reptiles swimming are not on the same topic.
Neither is the amount of melanin in Black people's skin.
Black people have the same basic DNA as White people, they simply have more melanin. This is NS, not evolution. Are the Black people now no longer the same kind of human because they have more melanin? Have they evoloved? Come on.
Is one color moth more evolved than the other? The concentration of white moths will vary with ratio of white to black surroundings. Obviously the ones which blend in have a greater chance of surviving than do the ones that stand out, thus they have a greater chance to pass on their genes that have the color that blends in.
THE DNA HAS NOT CHANGED IN THE ABOVE EXAMPLES(which are or fatural selection), BOTH WHICH CAN BE EASILY OBSERVED.
A reptile, however, can not 'learn to swim', and in the process conveniently sprout fins. This would require a whole lot of change to the DNA and, per ToE, with its random hope-this-works ideaology, many many reptiles who could neither walk nor swim, thus effectively wiping out the species before it could ever evolve.
THE DNA WOULD HAVE TO CHANGE IN THIS EXAMPLE (which is of macroevolution), AND NO EVIDENCE OD THIS HAS EVER BEEN DOCUMENTED.
Natural Selection and Evolutionism are NOT the same thing.
Furball's Brother said:
Eww...
All those reverse transcriptase and protein chaperones and stuff is bringin back memories of AP Biology. Yuck. Oh no, the rest of it is flooding my mind. Protein inhibitors. Cellular components. T-Phase viruses...
Make it stop!
ugh...Darwins Theory of Evolution through natural selection!
HELLO! Wake up! this IS what were talking about...what world are you in? go look up how old the earth is. know how long a million years is? what about a billion years? know how long that is?
Chad....dude...what are you like...16? you really have zero clue how life works...but its not my job to educate you any further than I have tied to....I give up
HELLO! Wake up! this IS what were talking about...what world are you in? go look up how old the earth is. know how long a million years is? what about a billion years? know how long that is?
Chad....dude...what are you like...16? you really have zero clue how life works...but its not my job to educate you any further than I have tied to....I give up
theWeezL said:
What you are talking about is micro evolution, and yes, it does exist. The BIG difference is between micro and macro evolution. A species of animal whose pigment changes to give them better camoflague is micro evolving. A monkey evolving into a man would be macro evolving.
Micro evolution utilizes traits that are already part of the genetic code of a species. Some traits are lost in favor of making a specific trait more dominant. It's like breeding dogs. You can start with a couple wolves and eventually breed through generations poodles, but you still have dogs. You cannot breed a pig from dogs. Likewise, you cannot breed poodles back into wolves. The point is, as micro evolution occurs genetic data is lost. The genetic data does not get more complex nor stronger, but weaker and more degraded.
Macro evolution has no backing evidence, and has not been observed. Macro evolution would say that one species can become another species, and can, through mutations, become more complex. In nature it can be observed that mutations do not help, but hinder, and there is no account of anything becoming more complex through mutation.
SupraDerk said:
I only read your thread and no one else's so if any has this has been said before I apologize...
But the way that I know and believe the faith that i belive is simply because I have been in hardship's and time of peril that it would have been completely inpossible to get out of without complete miracles by God. There are also times that when I am praying or in a time of worship overwhelming feelings and experiences come over me and I know that it simply must be God. I do not consider myself a "hardcore" cristian as I often find myself messing up constantly and it is just part of the learning experience.
The reason that your frineds and everybody else feel so cempelled to "convert" you is because they believe that hell is a real place and they never want anyone to have to experience. I can say that I have never been to hell, however I do believe that it is a real place and I would much rather be on the safer side than the sorry side. It may not seem like it to you but your friends are just "pushing" so constantly now becuase they truly love you and don't want you to suffer for eternity. It's is not that "we"(as christians) think that we are any better than you. If you do come across christians like that then I apologize on there behalf and will be the first to say that they are wrong.
Nobody is ever better than anybody else. I don't care who it is whether it be a poor hobo with racial minority or it the the President or it be the King of any country or it be anyone famous.
I understand what you mean by "how can a loving God put you through hell?" But the bible is very complicated and hard to understand, there are many books that are missing from the bible and there are also things from the bible that have been "lost in translation" such as when Moses parted the red sea. It in Greek really means Moses parted the sea of reeds, which could have been the red sea or it could have been a gigantic field of reeds and moses led the way through and lost the romans. The is just an example that I know, and I don't doubt that there are more similar instances. But the bottom line is that your friends care for you regardless whether or not it may seem. They are just trying to keep you away from eternal hellfire and they might possibly think that the only way to do that is by "forcing" it on you. That is one thing many, many people can't grasp..."lead by example" it is such an easy concept but many people can't get it down. I too am not excluded I am sure I have probably forced my views on someone, and I certainly know I have offended people, on this forum to be included.
Those are just my views and some of the things that I believe in. And some of those are just my interpretations of certain things. Another point where people often get mixed up between is whether old testament is still valid. I can't find any reason that old testament was created to become invalid yet still studied to get certain points across.
Yes I do believe that some organization have become corrupt, but far too often it is blamed on the entire church whereas it was probably a handfull of churches out of millions that have done something corrupt.
Your next question being how can someone have faith in something seemingly so farfetched. Well you answered half of it yourself. Faith is believing in something that you cannot see. Also look at the entire universe and think about how vast it is. We know of no other life-forms but yet we clearly exist with no problems except for maybe the ones that we created through greed, selfishness, and whatnot. Just that concept alone is a hard one to believe but yet we know it is something so complex but yet it's working. Prophosies stated in the bible are unfolding daily. The war we are in now was prophisied in the bible, but yet it was written down so long ago...Anyways I think I am getting a little off-topic and I am very tired si this is will I will end for tonight and will check back later.