Religion rant (if easily offended, should probably not enter)

[Kai]

Hey - i couldnt care less about people caring for me one way or the other, but i certainly wouldn't call it insane if someone didn't give much of a crap about me either.

 

[Yellow 13]

On the topic of faith healing - i believe all that to be a bunch of crap. My mum has terminal cancer, and all one of her friends could harp on about was 'god will look after you' and 'put your faith in jesus'. Thats not very helpful. Most everyone else is doing real research into things like chemotherapy and various other medical things (including myself).

I bet you any amount of money that people who chose faith healing over conventional medicine are either a) not that ill in the first place, having been misdiagnosed or b) die anyway.

On that subject, i'm not budging.

Patch Adams...Didnt they find that humor helps cure some people. I believe a strong psyche helps some in healing. Whos to say faith cant have the same effect.

 

[MDCmotorsports]

On the topic of faith healing - i believe all that to be a bunch of crap. My mum has terminal cancer, and all one of her friends could harp on about was 'god will look after you' and 'put your faith in jesus'. Thats not very helpful. Most everyone else is doing real research into things like chemotherapy and various other medical things (including myself).

I bet you any amount of money that people who chose faith healing over conventional medicine are either a) not that ill in the first place, having been misdiagnosed or b) die anyway.

On that subject, i'm not budging.

f

True.... to a point. God did give the doctors the gifts to heal.

 

[Kai]

I tried the whole 'be happy' thing, but its hard to get across to a 59 year old woman thats just had a tumour the size of a grapefruit removed from her colon, as well as being in 24/7 pain with everything else

 

[swaq]

I'm gonna have to check out some of those books you recommded

Cool. Let me know what you think of them when you do. I'd be happy to discuss them too.

But you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to make. If God had the ability to dictate whether or not we get free will or not. Why would he give it to us knowing that many would not accept him and burn in eternity forever. If he loved everyone, then pure love from him would be to have everyone love him and join him in heaven wouldn't it?

Free will is such a complicated topic and there are a lot of differing views on it. In my opinion, without free will loving God wouldn't mean anything. Hmm, there was absolutely a perfect quote on this in that C.S. Lewis book. *does a quick search* Ah, here we go, from Mere Christianity: "Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -- of creatures that worked like machines -- would hardly be worth creating."

Haha, well I need to head off, I have to be in class in a few hours, lol. But I really appreciate you guys answering my questions and not giving up on me, haha. It was GREAT to have a discussion without people ripping each other's heads off

+1 to everyone!

No problem. I'm really surprised at how civil this thread was able to stay. +1 to you for asking honest serious questions. I think it is essential to get answers to questions about a religion like these, even if you already believe in that religion. Anyone who ignores questions like these is just blindly following in my opinion.

 

[ChadMKIII]

I find it hard not to stay out ouf this topic, so I'll do my best to keep it simple.

Creationism is a religeous belief...there are no facts supporting it, only faith. Much like believing that prayer heals people...its all just faith, those that choose to believe it, find it comforting. Belief is a "feeling". Who am I to argue with that. If is however NOT based in fact.

Evolution is a scientific theory (and a damn good one if I do say so myself) and based in fact. Much like the "Big Bang" theory or the theory of relativity. It is something that, while it cant be proven beyond any shadow of a doubt, it can be observed, measured and tested. Therefore in a world based in reality it should be taught in public schools as the accepted theory of life.

Saying teaching the theory of evolution in schools is anything akin to trying to indoctrinate belief in creationism is ludicrous. If you dont like it being taught in public school there are plenty of parochial schools you can send your child to and I encourage you to do so. (its alot like the current view of this particular "off topic" forum...if you dont like it you are free to go elsewhere)

I will not allow anyone to dictate to me their religeous beliefs. If you want to believe in "god" and it makes you a better person, I say great! More power to ya! Just keep it to yourself, or within your church community, or spread your message where there are people who want to hear it. Leave me out of it.

me? I choose not to "classify" my spirituallity into any particualr religeon as I believe "religeon" to be the root of all that is evil. There is nothing wrong with spirituality...but far too many people have killed and/or died in the name of religeon for me to accept that anyone's "god" thinks thats how life was meant to be on this planet.

Well, I have a lot to disagree about this one.
First off, how much time have you spent reading Biology books and taking Bio classes, etc. Even the simplest life forms are ridiculously complex. If you think about the chances of it all happening out of the blue, it seems ludicrous.

So far, evolution has not been remotely proved. At all.

Yeah, microevolution is obvious, but thats not nearly the same as a monkey to a man. To me, some guy in the sky putting it all together makes more sense than everthing occuring by chance.

Also, private schools are not the same as this OT section. Each and every family in America payes their tuition to public schools--via taxes. There are no refunds if you don't use the p/s system. Now you add another 10g a kid and not a lot of family's can swing it, especially in higher Cost of Living areas like LA, NYC, Bay Area, etc. You can't just go, oh, I think I'll put Johnny in private school, you're now paying an extra 10grand.

Finally, there are a whole lot of people who have killed in the name of religion or God that couldn't have cared less about Him. They just wanted glory or fame for themselves. There are many posers, for lack of a better word.

 

[Yellow 13]

Chad: I love your sig man. That is one of the greatest feelings in the world hands down.

 

[bluemyst]

Jumping in! Woo! A few random comments first:

I understand the "Neon Genesis Evangelion" commentary lol. I used to do a little research on this stuff back when I was way into the show. Im tempted to start watchin it again now that Im older.

NGE still doesn't make much sense to me. If you ever get it, I'd love an explanation. =P

Also - that post about the 'one true god' - are you a Cylon?

I would love to discuss that sometime... in a different thread or something. =) Their view on God is interesting, to say the least.

Now, on to the meat of things. One, I'd just like to pose a question for proponents of the Big Bang theory (and I willingly acknowledge that there is evidence for it; I am going to be a senior in physics this fall so it's hard not to be aware of it): where did the "stuff" for the Big Bang come from? At this point in time, it is a question rather similar to asking where God came from. Our puny human minds (well, not too puny; rather, our inability to utilize much of our grey matter) cannot currently fathom either.

On a different note, I can't say I see hell as the place of fire and brimstone that has been so sensationalized in human history. Rather, it is living an existence permanently separated from God willfully chosen by the person dwelling there. One great picture of this is in C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce. Another is in Deadline, written by Randy Alcorn. It's a story of three men involved in a car accident, two who die and one who survives, and the aftermath. An absolutely fascinating read.

Lastly...

Yeah, microevolution is obvious, but thats not nearly the same as a monkey to a man. To me, some guy in the sky putting it all together makes more sense than everthing occuring by chance.

and

Finally, there are a whole lot of people who have killed in the name of religion or God that couldn't have cared less about Him. They just wanted glory or fame for themselves. There are many posers, for lack of a better word.

Two words: I agree. =)

 

[Facime]

Originally Posted by theWeezL
I find it hard not to stay out ouf this topic, so I'll do my best to keep it simple.

Creationism is a religeous belief...there are no facts supporting it, only faith. Much like believing that prayer heals people...its all just faith, those that choose to believe it, find it comforting. Belief is a "feeling". Who am I to argue with that. If is however NOT based in fact.

Really? Did you know that more people who are sick and are prayed for heal or heal faster than the peole who have no prayer at all?

Prove it! prove that prayer did it! you can not...you can only believe it is so...your faith tells you that. Ive got no problem with your faith, but you need accept the fact that its only your faith, not a measurable fact.

Evolution is a scientific theory (and a damn good one if I do say so myself) and based in fact. Much like the "Big Bang" theory or the theory of relativity. It is something that, while it cant be proven beyond any shadow of a doubt, it can be observed, measured and tested.

Oh really? You've seen footage of an mouse turn into a monkey? You've seen INERT gasses turn into carbon and single celled life forms all from one explosion?

you and I both know this arguement is rediculous...did I see the earth form from trillions of atoms of gas and solid matter? no...but that doesnt mean it didnt happen, it also doesnt mean it cant be proven with scientific principal. Obsevation of the laws of nature make it possible. If you want to "believe" it was all caused by some all powerful being, then thats ok...but your not gonna make me "believe" it as well.

Therefore in a world based in reality it should be taught in public schools as the accepted theory of life.

No.

yes...(I guess we can call that a standoff...no facts needed)

Saying teaching the theory of evolution in schools is anything akin to trying to indoctrinate belief in creationism is ludicrous. If you dont like it being taught in public school there are plenty of parochial schools you can send your child to and I encourage you to do so. (its alot like the current view of this particular "off topic" forum...if you dont like it you are free to go elsewhere)

No again. Public schools are that. If the public doesn't agree (in which alot of parents dont and aren't being heard) then it shouldn't be tought.

yes, public schools are just that...public. When your "alot" becomes the majority..let me know. Until then, keep your "faith" out of my schools.

I will not allow anyone to dictate to me their religeous beliefs. If you want to believe in "god" and it makes you a better person, I say great! More power to ya! Just keep it to yourself, or within your church community, or spread your message where there are people who want to hear it. Leave me out of it.

Im sorry you want to sit in your little box and not hear what others have to say. Be polite about it and go on your way. You may not want to hear the trash man on your sleeping in on tuesday morning but he's there. Let him do his job and be on his way. Its your choice to take the trash out or leave it sit and rot. If the trashman came and preached to you time after time after time after time then by all means, tell him to leave.

Ive heard what others have to say. All my life growing up its all I heard (in fact even today at the age of 42 my parents still push it on me). Ive also been to synagogue, temple, mosque and a couple other places to try and find my own spiritual way. I have found it...but I can pretty much guarranty that its not in your church.
The trash man comes to perform a service I pay him for. I may not like when he comes, but I accpet that as part of our "contract" for services rendered. When I want relgeous counceling I will seek it out, and if I so choose I will make a "contract" to live by the laws of that religeon (dont hold your breath). Until then, I will in fact go on politely about my business without your belief being forced down my throat.

me? I choose not to "classify" my spirituallity into any particualr religeon as I believe "religeon" to be the root of all that is evil.

Some say money, some say religion, some say women. Choice is yours. Truth be told evil is here be it any of the three I mentioned.

Please tell me you dont actually put women in that catagory for any reason other than a joke, Otherwise, Im going to suggest that you look into Muslim as your religeous base...they also dont have a high regard for women in society. Money does kill alot of people, but it isnt even in the same ballpark as the number of people who have died by bullet or blade in the name religeon.

There is nothing wrong with spirituality...but far too many people have killed and/or died in the name of religeon for me to accept that anyone's "god" thinks thats how life was meant to be on this planet.

True. And spreading the Gospel Of the Lord been done the wrong way for along time.

and what makes you think that is gonna change anytime soon?

 

[Yellow 13]

Jumping in! Woo! A few random comments first:

NGE still doesn't make much sense to me. If you ever get it, I'd love an explanation. =P

http://www.motorballer.org/redcross.html

That might help you some.

Theres a glossary down about halfway towards the bottom.

If you ever have any direct questions just PM me and Ill answer them for you. I plan on watching them all over again here pretty soon. All Ive got are the original VHS from way back when I was a kid. So Im gonna do some "Searching" *ahem* for something a little more to date.

 

[Adjuster]

Ok, so like this arguement has about what percentage of importance in our daily lives?

Yep, that's going to be zero.

Good day sir!

 

[Yellow 13]

Ok, so like this arguement has about what percentage of importance in our daily lives?

Yep, that's going to be zero.

Good day sir!

From what Ive read it sounds to me like some people have strong ties to this stuff in their daily lives.

 

[Adjuster]

For the life of me, I can't possibly imagine why this subject is so heated.

If you have kids, and I do, I just have told her that many things you "learn" at school are bogus, but that's part of life. Dealing with others who don't think the same way is part of life. Get used to it.

So, really this one aspect of daily life for me anyway has less than zero effect on me from one moment to the other.

Heck, I've just spent more time in the past few moments thinking about this than I have in a few years, so I suppose I'll be done now, or I can't think about it for about 10 years.... Might cause some kind of butterfly effect, and the world will come crashing to an end gasping on termite farts.

 

[Facime]

Well, I have a lot to disagree about this one.
First off, how much time have you spent reading Biology books and taking Bio classes, etc. Even the simplest life forms are ridiculously complex. If you think about the chances of it all happening out of the blue, it seems ludicrous.

I never said nature wasnt fabulously amazing and complex...if its easier for you to believe that some all powerful being is the cause of it...great...I got no problems with it. When I have a problem is when you want to turn religous "belief" into science "fact" and begin teaching it in a public setting. Look when you can come even close to proving the existence of "god" let me know, and we can re-write the textbooks...but for now, this theory stands.

So far, evolution has not been remotely proved. At all.

beyond all doubt? no. To a reasonable and certain fact? yes. I dont know what textbooks you are reading...but I think you need you need to put down the works of fiction (ie. The Bible)

Yeah, microevolution is obvious, but thats not nearly the same as a monkey to a man. To me, some guy in the sky putting it all together makes more sense than everthing occuring by chance.

wow.....just...wow.

umm....wow

Also, private schools are not the same as this OT section. Each and every family in America payes their tuition to public schools--via taxes. There are no refunds if you don't use the p/s system. Now you add another 10g a kid and not a lot of family's can swing it, especially in higher Cost of Living areas like LA, NYC, Bay Area, etc. You can't just go, oh, I think I'll put Johnny in private school, you're now paying an extra 10grand.

Well if a family cant "swing" the cost of private education when they see the information being taught in public schools as contrary to their belief system...I guess they have 3 choices. 1)accept what the public school teaches and educate thier children on a personal level about the families beliefs. 2) home school their children and teach them whatever the hell they want. 3) sell out their belief systems because they just couldnt "swing" paying to educate their children the way they would like to. Yes your parents taxes paid for your education in public school (probably not a very good one either...our public schools suck). But Im guarrantied under the constitution that there will always be seperation of church and state. If you feel strongly enough about it, talk to your congressman. Or better yet, talk to your church leaders about setting up a private school funded by your church (or become catholic).

Finally, there are a whole lot of people who have killed in the name of religion or God that couldn't have cared less about Him. They just wanted glory or fame for themselves. There are many posers, for lack of a better word.

Sadly this is true, and its been done ever since man first wondered about his existence. Unfortunately I dont see it changing anytime soon. With all religeon there is the problem of fanaticism.

 

[ChadMKIII]

You're generalizing, WeezL.

I'll try to find out the name of the textbook in specific I was referring to. It was a non-religious college text. Seriously, the more I learned, the more I doubted eveolution was possible. Life forms just get too complicated for random chance to have created the intracacies.

And no one is saying Creationism should be taught as fact. It should be presented EQUALLY with Evolutionism, since they are BOTH THEORIES which both have NO tangible evidence for them. You show me the missing link (that isn't a hoax) and I'll start considering. But for now, it is utterly baseless, and science backs it less and less every day.

Evolution is ALL SPECULATION. It is some random idea that some random British Theology major came up with. No scientific foundings whatsoever, all qualitative observation, nothing hard.

The public school sys could be a whole nother thread in itself. Lol. But I think people who aren't using the P/S sys should not have to pay money for it so that some beuracracy can mishandle the money and keep it from really reaching the kids. I have attended Private all my life, and I'm sure I'm getting a beter education than the public schools can give.

Anyway, the school is linked with a church, but if I'm hearing you right, no its not funded by the church. Its like 9k/yr tuition. And it struggles to make budget. A church could never independently back a school, without exceedingly rich people constantly giving lots of money on Sunday...

And the Separation of Church and State IS NOT IN THE CONSTITUTION!!!
Show it to me.
It says that gov't can't ESTABLISH a religion, like when England forced all citizens to be Anglican and worship a specific way.

And fanatics will be fanatics no matter what. If there was no such thing as religion, they'd find something else to jump on and make noise about.

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

Ok, so to me what's to say God didn't make evolution a part of his plan?
How can you say for sure that he did not create animals and humans that would be able to adapt to their evironments? It almost wouldn't make sense not to. He created the planet and let it go on existing by itself. Small changes could kill everything it it was not taken into account so it makes sense that evolution was part of his plan. Not crazy evolution like the fish into people bullshit but small changes over time that allow people to survive in their evironment.

I see it like this, I may not take everything said in the Bible literally but I do believe there was a Jesus and there is a God. The debates are kind of pointless because you cannot prove or disprove the existence of God and half the point of religion is believing in what you can't see.

The biggest problem with religion is the abuse of it's followers so it is criticized not on it's merits of existence but of screwing people over.
There is most likely some truth to both sides.

 

[ChadMKIII]

Ok, so to me what's to say God didn't make evolution a part of his plan?
How can you say for sure that he did not create animals and humans that would be able to adapt to their evironments? It almost wouldn't make sense not to. He created the planet and let it go on existing by itself. Small changes could kill everything it it was not taken into account so it makes sense that evolution was part of his plan. Not crazy evolution like the fish into people bullshit but small changes over time that allow people to survive in their evironment.

I see it like this, I may not take everything said in the Bible literally but I do believe there was a Jesus and there is a God. The debates are kind of pointless because you cannot prove or disprove the existence of God and half the point of religion is believing in what you can't see.

The biggest problem with religion is the abuse of it's followers so it is criticized not on it's merits of existence but of screwing people over.
There is most likely some truth to both sides.

And logic joins the debate...

We all know evolution within species occurs. No one can deny that. But one species to another is simply biologically impossible.

Anyway, I haven't really read the original post carefully, nor the rest of this, I was just commenting on some stuff I saw, so- Sorry Derk, this had absolutley nothing to do with your request. When I have time I'll check that out more and see about posting some stuff up.

 

[Joel W.]

Chad: How many sides are there here? This is a trick question.

For the life of me, I can't possibly imagine why this subject is so heated.

Evolution can be a threat to religion?

If you have kids, and I do, I just have told her that many things you "learn" at school are bogus, but that's part of life. Dealing with others who don't think the same way is part of life. Get used to it.

I have nothing here.. I would not want to try to tell you how to raise your kids.

So, really this one aspect of daily life for me anyway has less than zero effect on me from one moment to the other.

Did you or did you not tell me in the MMGW thread that we came from monkeys? Were you lieing to me or to your kids?

Edit: I guess you said Apes..
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showpost.php?p=293151&postcount=238

Heck, I've just spent more time in the past few moments thinking about this than I have in a few years, so I suppose I'll be done now, or I can't think about it for about 10 years.... Might cause some kind of butterfly effect, and the world will come crashing to an end gasping on termite farts.

Thinking is FTW...
LOL at the termite fart/end of the world spin... You are a funny guy...

 

[Yellow 13]

Do termites even fart?

 

[Facime]

We all know evolution within species occurs. No one can deny that. But one species to another is simply biologically impossible.

do you have any idea just how much DNA we share in common with a chimpanze?

do you know anything at all about evolution? Im quite certain you dont based on what you have posted, but believe me...I dont hold that against you. You're just young thats all. (and Im not meaning to sound like thats some kind of insult...its just a simple fact) You just need a bit more time to learn some of the things most people with a college education simply accept as fact.

The part that kills me is that you cant believe that that nature is complex all on its own, but you can believe some disembodied "man in the sky" (as you put it) is more believable. That just kills me! I mean, I actually giggle at the thought of it.

Im done in this thread...Ive said my peace. Im going to...how was it put...go back to my little box? I have learned to tolerate people of religeon, and I knew this thread was going to be pointless to post in. Its not my job to make you see my viewpoint...please dont make it yours to force your beliefs down my throat.