Well if you plan to ditch the AFM anyways, the AEM works just fine. It doesn't need to 'compensate' for altitude if it is using readings from a manifold pressure sensor for fuel metering.
Planning 2014 Standalone Upgrade - Question...
- Thread starter Grandavi
- Start date
Looking over everything, I think in the end, I will be going a bit overkill and getting the HKS fcon VPro simply because thats the one that RCTS is recommending and because it can take everything I want to throw on without any issues. The price differences between this and the other ones I looked at and "want" is 250-1300.00. Some people think thats a lot, but in comparison to what I am already tossing and have tossed into this Supra, I'm comfortable with it. Im kind of stupid that way, I overbuild and underrun... but as long as my car is bulletproof.. I'm happy.
And yes.. RCTS is a bit HKS pushy... lol.
ProEFI 128 is my second choice... still gonna be about 8 months until I get it installed.
Until then, I will be running 8 PSI standard, and 12 PSI scramble on the 57Trim. I reduced my boost control desired settings simply because I think I will wait until the engine is properly monitored prior to worrying about a truly fun pull.
And yes.. RCTS is a bit HKS pushy... lol.
ProEFI 128 is my second choice... still gonna be about 8 months until I get it installed.
Until then, I will be running 8 PSI standard, and 12 PSI scramble on the 57Trim. I reduced my boost control desired settings simply because I think I will wait until the engine is properly monitored prior to worrying about a truly fun pull.
I read the spec on hks-Europe, and dans cannot see the data logging feature you've talked so much about on previous pages.
By the way, features are very nice ;-)
By the way, features are very nice ;-)
Not sure as I am still on the learning/reading/research curve. AEM does have a really nice unit though (been reading more about it). I dont think I would consider a HKS unit though if my tuner wasn't very familiar with it. From what I can tell, HKS support on the unit isn't stellar...
Not quite sure why I would want a data logger or what its true function is. Isn't that more for when you are trying to achieve high HP (more for track)? Thought it was an external unit that you used to view all the sensor outputs to fine tune with.
Not quite sure why I would want a data logger or what its true function is. Isn't that more for when you are trying to achieve high HP (more for track)? Thought it was an external unit that you used to view all the sensor outputs to fine tune with.
I'm not exactly in your shoes, but I have some similar goals. IMO, unless you're getting into the added features that aren't available on the stock electronics OR planning on tuning yourself and tweaking as you add parts a standalone will be a little unnecessary.
I'd love a standalone to mess with the settings and have complete control. My power goals are well within the stock electronics abilities so its not crucial, but I'm an infowhore and datalogging and complete engine control get me more excited than an extra 100 hp, haha.
I think it's a little strange you have no desire to mess with the tuning and that your power goals are modest enough for basic piggybacks. If you dont want to tweak it every now and then and your power goals are modest... I dont see why the low end standalone would be worth it. :dunno:
Definitely not knocking the idea if its done right though.
There are many worse ways to blow $3k on these cars.
I'd love a standalone to mess with the settings and have complete control. My power goals are well within the stock electronics abilities so its not crucial, but I'm an infowhore and datalogging and complete engine control get me more excited than an extra 100 hp, haha.
I think it's a little strange you have no desire to mess with the tuning and that your power goals are modest enough for basic piggybacks. If you dont want to tweak it every now and then and your power goals are modest... I dont see why the low end standalone would be worth it. :dunno:
Definitely not knocking the idea if its done right though.
There are many worse ways to blow $3k on these cars.
To be very honest, most of what I do to my car is because its what I think is "best", not cost effective. Its not a car I intend on ever selling (my end-of-life keeper) so I dont skimp. The standalone is more for getting the power with less risk. I love the feel of a Supra when it pulls on boost, but I dont do quarter runs, so its mostly the odd opportunity when the road conditions are right and I am feeling frisky. In the beginning I was cutting corners and trying to do it financially smart and ended up doing things twice which ended up costing more in the end. Therefore, I read, talk to people and research what I can understand, and then go the best route as long as its not totally stupidly priced.
When I was 16-18 I poured money into a car and had the pride of having something I built (did everything except body and paint myself). It was the best point in my life. Then I had kids... then a lot of kids... now I have grandkids... so... reliving the dream
When I was 16-18 I poured money into a car and had the pride of having something I built (did everything except body and paint myself). It was the best point in my life. Then I had kids... then a lot of kids... now I have grandkids... so... reliving the dream
Grandavi;1912150 said:To be very honest, most of what I do to my car is because its what I think is "best", not cost effective. Its not a car I intend on ever selling (my end-of-life keeper) so I dont skimp. The standalone is more for getting the power with less risk. I love the feel of a Supra when it pulls on boost, but I dont do quarter runs, so its mostly the odd opportunity when the road conditions are right and I am feeling frisky. In the beginning I was cutting corners and trying to do it financially smart and ended up doing things twice which ended up costing more in the end. Therefore, I read, talk to people and research what I can understand, and then go the best route as long as its not totally stupidly priced.
When I was 16-18 I poured money into a car and had the pride of having something I built (did everything except body and paint myself). It was the best point in my life. Then I had kids... then a lot of kids... now I have grandkids... so... reliving the dream
:thumbs up:
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Yeah, Grandavi I know how you feel. This car will probably be the death of me though. It's tried to kill me twice now.
I got my car back today and will definitely get the stand alone. I just poured a ton of $$ into the car and the reward is very much worth it. Just BPU upgrades with a 57 trim running stock boost (boost controller is not setup yet while I break it in) and the car is a total rocket.
I have to learn to read the wideband correctly though, currently the idle is a bit high (believe it is the ECU relearning with the different engine setup) and the AFR reads 14.7-15.2 while idling (fluctuates back and forth). Seems to sit in the "yellow" range for most of the driving and only goes green when I am boosting. So, stupid question, but the higher the number, the more fuel mix to air? (as in 14.7 - 1 is more fuel than 13.5 - 1) I gotta figure out what to watch for. The number move so rapidly, I cant just stare at them (luckily I dont have epilepsy...). Thinking that 11.5 - 15.5 is kinda the safe range, although that may be very wrong. Do you guys just look at AFR numbers while accelerating? (the deceleration just puts the numbers to - - -). Pretty sure thats the only place we worry because if your going to have detonation.. that would be the time.
Also.. if the engine is cold (its 0 C ~32F outside) is it normal for the reading to be - - - or 17.7?
Looks like my lowest range (green) when I rev it is 10.4. Not sure if that is lowest point or if it adjusts over time. Love new toys... cant wait until I figure it out.. lol
I have to learn to read the wideband correctly though, currently the idle is a bit high (believe it is the ECU relearning with the different engine setup) and the AFR reads 14.7-15.2 while idling (fluctuates back and forth). Seems to sit in the "yellow" range for most of the driving and only goes green when I am boosting. So, stupid question, but the higher the number, the more fuel mix to air? (as in 14.7 - 1 is more fuel than 13.5 - 1) I gotta figure out what to watch for. The number move so rapidly, I cant just stare at them (luckily I dont have epilepsy...). Thinking that 11.5 - 15.5 is kinda the safe range, although that may be very wrong. Do you guys just look at AFR numbers while accelerating? (the deceleration just puts the numbers to - - -). Pretty sure thats the only place we worry because if your going to have detonation.. that would be the time.
Also.. if the engine is cold (its 0 C ~32F outside) is it normal for the reading to be - - - or 17.7?
Looks like my lowest range (green) when I rev it is 10.4. Not sure if that is lowest point or if it adjusts over time. Love new toys... cant wait until I figure it out.. lol
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Air to fuel ratio
14.7:1
14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel
10:1 has less air per part of fuel and therefor more fuel aka richer
15:1 has more air per part of fuel and therefor less fuel aka leaner
So the lower the first number = Rich (more fuel) 10.0:1
The higher the first number = Lean (less fuel) 15.0:1
14.7 is what you want at idle and it is normal to go up and down .2-.3
General range of afr under full boost is between 10:1 to 12:1
I generally like my afr around 11.0:1 under full boost
10:1 is safer but will usually not make as much power
12:1 is not as "safe" but can make more power
14.7:1
14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel
10:1 has less air per part of fuel and therefor more fuel aka richer
15:1 has more air per part of fuel and therefor less fuel aka leaner
So the lower the first number = Rich (more fuel) 10.0:1
The higher the first number = Lean (less fuel) 15.0:1
14.7 is what you want at idle and it is normal to go up and down .2-.3
General range of afr under full boost is between 10:1 to 12:1
I generally like my afr around 11.0:1 under full boost
10:1 is safer but will usually not make as much power
12:1 is not as "safe" but can make more power
A little AFR 101:
14.7:1 is the stoichiometric ratio. This means if all the available air and fuel mixed, you would have complete combustion with no "extra" molecules. Since complete combustion NEVER happens, the ideal AFR under high load is a little more "rich". This means you'll have extra fuel if anything. Running a little rich is fine and safe. Running a little lean is fatal for your motor. At idle and partial load the Toyota ECU (and most OEM ECU's) aims for a 14.7 ratio. At low load the engine is running more slowly and has less air to burn. It's easier to mix all the air and fuel safely and completely. Your AFR at idle and no boost/low boost you should see 14.5-15.0. That's normal and healthy.
Now for load: Toyota's ECU runs rich. Rich is safe. Rich is safe. Too rich is much, much, much better than too lean. Part of the reason to run an aftermarket ECU or piggyback is to "lean" the mixture to squeeze out more power than Toyota was comfortable doing. By leaning out the mixture you can allow more air to enter the combustion chamber and potentially get more power. Running rich is safe, but that extra fuel takes up space in your engine. That space could be used for a little more air that could burn with more of that extra fuel.
Make sense?
Watching your AFR while driving is tough. To do any effective tuning you should really be datalogging. You asked why datalogging is important earlier. Now you know. You need to datalog to tune because you just can't watch all the gauges while driving.
My AFRs are around 10.5-11 at WOT on the stock ECU, injectors, fuel pump, regulator and AFM on ~10 psi with a 54 trim CT-26 and DDP/3" exhaust. My cruise and idle are dead on at 14.6-14.8. The AFR doesn't change on my car until I'm at ~+2psi.
10.5:1 - Factory WOT Rich
11.5-12.5:1 - Peak power within safe recommended limits for most engines with regular gasoline (non-race gas)
14.7:1 - Stoich/idle/cruise
Low = Rich; High = Lean
14.7:1 is the stoichiometric ratio. This means if all the available air and fuel mixed, you would have complete combustion with no "extra" molecules. Since complete combustion NEVER happens, the ideal AFR under high load is a little more "rich". This means you'll have extra fuel if anything. Running a little rich is fine and safe. Running a little lean is fatal for your motor. At idle and partial load the Toyota ECU (and most OEM ECU's) aims for a 14.7 ratio. At low load the engine is running more slowly and has less air to burn. It's easier to mix all the air and fuel safely and completely. Your AFR at idle and no boost/low boost you should see 14.5-15.0. That's normal and healthy.
Now for load: Toyota's ECU runs rich. Rich is safe. Rich is safe. Too rich is much, much, much better than too lean. Part of the reason to run an aftermarket ECU or piggyback is to "lean" the mixture to squeeze out more power than Toyota was comfortable doing. By leaning out the mixture you can allow more air to enter the combustion chamber and potentially get more power. Running rich is safe, but that extra fuel takes up space in your engine. That space could be used for a little more air that could burn with more of that extra fuel.
Make sense?
Watching your AFR while driving is tough. To do any effective tuning you should really be datalogging. You asked why datalogging is important earlier. Now you know. You need to datalog to tune because you just can't watch all the gauges while driving.
My AFRs are around 10.5-11 at WOT on the stock ECU, injectors, fuel pump, regulator and AFM on ~10 psi with a 54 trim CT-26 and DDP/3" exhaust. My cruise and idle are dead on at 14.6-14.8. The AFR doesn't change on my car until I'm at ~+2psi.
10.5:1 - Factory WOT Rich
11.5-12.5:1 - Peak power within safe recommended limits for most engines with regular gasoline (non-race gas)
14.7:1 - Stoich/idle/cruise
Low = Rich; High = Lean
Okay.. that makes a lot more sense now. Cold start, I am running very rich then or my Wideband is reading oddly, because I see it at 17.7 or - - - (no reading). While driving, its almost always fluctuating between 14.7 - 15.2. I dont have a number at WOT because I have been avoiding that during the break in period.
Now I also understand why you want a datalogger too. Definitely easier to make sense of what happens while driving if you can look at it on charts afterwards rather than worrying excessively while driving. Just good to have a base in my mind so I can see what is happening when I notice the numbers. Currently the wideband is screwed into the pillar (where my pods will eventually be) so that its in my vision constantly.. I dont have to really look at it to read it. The hardest position I am trying to decide on is the control bar for the HKS EVC-S boost controller. Currently its double taped to the ashtray front where its kind of handy to see (and I only use the ashtray for change anyway... ). Not sure if theres a better spot, but its not really functional yet until I dyno the car next week anyway.
Will be interesting to see what happens on the dyno... the car is pretty damn impressive compared to stock right now.
The stand alone for me isn't really to squeeze out the optimum performance as much as preventing something stupid from happening. Currently, a wideband and boost controller are nice, but any warning I get from the AFR meter is just like an idiot light. It tells me its occuring.. it wont intervene.
Now I also understand why you want a datalogger too. Definitely easier to make sense of what happens while driving if you can look at it on charts afterwards rather than worrying excessively while driving. Just good to have a base in my mind so I can see what is happening when I notice the numbers. Currently the wideband is screwed into the pillar (where my pods will eventually be) so that its in my vision constantly.. I dont have to really look at it to read it. The hardest position I am trying to decide on is the control bar for the HKS EVC-S boost controller. Currently its double taped to the ashtray front where its kind of handy to see (and I only use the ashtray for change anyway... ). Not sure if theres a better spot, but its not really functional yet until I dyno the car next week anyway.
Will be interesting to see what happens on the dyno... the car is pretty damn impressive compared to stock right now.
The stand alone for me isn't really to squeeze out the optimum performance as much as preventing something stupid from happening. Currently, a wideband and boost controller are nice, but any warning I get from the AFR meter is just like an idiot light. It tells me its occuring.. it wont intervene.
IJ.;1912548 said:
... or the sensor is not preheated (---) or there is some humidity around it.
If the sensor is an accurate one and installed correctly, as IJ said, it's to lean.
Moreover, the narrow band O2 sensor used by TCCS is cold for a longer time than your wideband. At cold start, you may monitor Vf with a voltmeter to check
Mine while cruising reads around 14.7 to 15.2, then when I go WOT it'll stay near 14.7 til I hit roughly 3k rpm then goes 11.0 and slowly to 10.5.
Cold start idle is near 13.0 and warm idle is around 15.2.
Cold start idle is near 13.0 and warm idle is around 15.2.
After about 1-2 minutes run time, the gauge starts reading about 15.2. Normally this car doesn't run in winter.. but it just got out of the shop. Still around the freezing temp here, so I thought it may have been that. Yesterday was the first day it was outside of a shop since October. It may be something loopy, will check it with a voltmeter this weekend, hoping to break the engine in on Saturday or Sunday on a nice little quiet area with no cars or snow providing we have decent weather. The sensor is located behind the stock position on the turbo elbow (wideband).
Thought it was weird, because it was giving the - - - on the digital dial at cold start last night.
I just went out and started the car. This time it kicked into fast idle properly (about 1200 RPM) and the Wideband was reading 13.5 - 14.2 (no - - -). Not sure if the car has run long enough for the ECU to setup correctly because the idle (when warm) is about 8000 RPM, pretty sure it used to idle at 6500 RPM before. It seems to be slowly lowering over time.
Looking at the PROEFI, that is pretty well the whole ball of wax by the look of it. I dont see anything talking about dataloggers unless they are external. Do the normal highend Stand alones all come with the capability?
When I go stand alone, do I keep the Wideband? Fairly certain the standalone takes over for it and I will have a part to sell... (sans sensor)
Thought it was weird, because it was giving the - - - on the digital dial at cold start last night.
I just went out and started the car. This time it kicked into fast idle properly (about 1200 RPM) and the Wideband was reading 13.5 - 14.2 (no - - -). Not sure if the car has run long enough for the ECU to setup correctly because the idle (when warm) is about 8000 RPM, pretty sure it used to idle at 6500 RPM before. It seems to be slowly lowering over time.
Looking at the PROEFI, that is pretty well the whole ball of wax by the look of it. I dont see anything talking about dataloggers unless they are external. Do the normal highend Stand alones all come with the capability?
When I go stand alone, do I keep the Wideband? Fairly certain the standalone takes over for it and I will have a part to sell... (sans sensor)
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Man, I live in the same city and you won't catch me ripping around in my car. Gravel, salt, slush, ice, packed snow....not the proper place for any Supra of any kind. Especially since you may not be so used to your newly "elevated" power. Just be careful man, I wanna see the car in one piece. Not the "after" pieces.
Lol... I have to get the bumper resprayed anyway and then I'm 3m'ing it.
Took it to okotoks and back after rush hour. Wouldn't let any trucks near me.. Was fun : )
Summer tires still..
Took it to okotoks and back after rush hour. Wouldn't let any trucks near me.. Was fun : )
Summer tires still..
Grandavi;1912743 said:
Careful, my car in the rain HATES me. I swear I can get stuck on the white line, no lie. Just trying to keep up with traffic in the rain, I've nearly spun out in 3rd and HAVE spun out in 4th at 60.