Owns a TSRM

[SupraMario]

The actual printing of the manual is not what you are paying for. The engineering and intellectual knowledge that went into producing the product, the whole product, is what you are paying for. You don't have the right to determine anything about how they decide to market it. Don't buy their product if you don't like their price structure.

No, when the car was paid for is when the engineering and intellectual knowledge of a product was paid for, who the hell buys just a manual and not the product.
"Ahh yes I would like to buy the manual, but leave out the product, I wanna marvel at the engineering and intellectual knowledge that went into the product". You create something great, don't you want the end user to be able to keep it running or working for years to come?
Almost every pricey product I have bought comes with a manual, and a complete break down of the product. Why shouldn't this be the same for a car? You spend 30k to buy it, the least they can do is put a break down of it. They do it so you have to bring it to the dealer to screw you out of more of your money. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

As for the free loading comment. I'm talking about those who do it because its free, if that makes any sense. I pirate alot of music, but when I find out a artist is their own producers, I'll buy their CD. Or when a group comes to town on tour, I'll go see the show, even if it does cost me $30 for a shirt I wont wear but once, because I know the $30 is going to the band and not to some rich asshole behind a desk laughing at how much he has fucked the artist.

 

[isnms]

That is how they spread the cost out so you can buy the car for 30K. How much cost do you think is in R&D, prototypes, production...? If you had to pay for all that when you bought your car, It would not cost 30K.

Almost every pricey product I have bought comes with a manual, and a complete break down of the product. Why shouldn't this be the same for a car?

Tell me something; When you spent your ~$100 for your computer operating system, Did Microsoft also give you the book with all the operating system code? Did Intel give you the schematics for the CPU when you purchased your computer? Why shouldn't it be the same?

...if that makes any sense.

No, it doesn't.

edit: I am not Toyota's champion, they can surely defend themselves. I just know you can not make a valid case for stealing the material.

 

[SupraMario]

That is how they spread the cost out so you can buy the car for 30K. How much cost do you think is in R&D, prototypes, production...? If you had to pay for all that when you bought your car, It would not cost 30K.

Uhh, no they spread the cost out by creating more than 9 cars a year.

Tell me something; When you spent your ~$100 for your computer operating system, Did Microsoft also give you the book with all the operating system code? Did Intel give you the schematics for the CPU when you purchased your computer? Why shouldn't it be the same?

Microsoft, supplies the end user with a very lenghty help manual in the system itself, the code is the same as a bolt or screw from our car. Microsoft also supplies the user with any questions on how to fix a problem that occurs with their operating system, they also release updates constantly for errors that occur. I don't like microsoft a ton, but they do put the money where their mouth is.
As for intel? Why the hell would I need a schematic for a single peice CPU?
And if you want to go as far as that, since its a single peice we can use Mother boards, all of them come with a detailed booklet on the parts of the equipment. I've built many many computers, and when you cant find something, 99% of the time the website has the answer.

No, it doesn't.

edit: I am not Toyota's champion, they can surely defend themselves. I just know you can not make a valid case for stealing the material.

stealing what material???!? I don't understand how giving someone a manual of a car that cost 30k+ to build back in the 80s is so hard to do.

 

[Satan]

I've had quite a few legit manuals, even for JDM-only stuff. Even so, I did get the 120MB download of the PDF version, about 6 years ago.

I like using new technology. If Toyota put an electronic version out, I'd buy it too. It's always worth more to you, than what you pay for it.

Still, who cares?

 

[Dan88t]

I've got one for my '88 and one for my '87 plus the EWD for both... All for free tho and there's no poll choice for that. I got the hookups at the dealership, they use their internet connection to toyota now rather than those ol' books, hopefully no one ever goes looking for one tho :naughty:

 

[jetjock]

A thief is a thief. Period. It's amazing how most rationalize their behavior.

 

[adampecush]

Seriously, you are in the running for the retarded argument of the year award. Everyone is in the game to make a profit believe it or not. Cars were not designed for the everyday driver to work on, hence why service manuals are not given away freely with cars. Why would you give out manuals for free when:

a) independent shops will profit off of the knowledge contained in the manuals
b) People are more likely to bring their car to get fixed if they don't know what they are doing/don't have a manual. (profit for toyota...remember, they're in the game to make a profit, not appease those who own 20 year old cars)

jj is right, stealing is stealing, no matter how you justify it.

Uhh, no they spread the cost out by creating more than 9 cars a year.



Microsoft, supplies the end user with a very lenghty help manual in the system itself, the code is the same as a bolt or screw from our car. Microsoft also supplies the user with any questions on how to fix a problem that occurs with their operating system, they also release updates constantly for errors that occur. I don't like microsoft a ton, but they do put the money where their mouth is.
As for intel? Why the hell would I need a schematic for a single peice CPU?
And if you want to go as far as that, since its a single peice we can use Mother boards, all of them come with a detailed booklet on the parts of the equipment. I've built many many computers, and when you cant find something, 99% of the time the website has the answer.




stealing what material???!? I don't understand how giving someone a manual of a car that cost 30k+ to build back in the 80s is so hard to do.

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

A lot of people can't do it right even with a manual....

 

[Supracentral]

A thief is a thief. Period. It's amazing how most rationalize their behavior.

It is the second largest problem with modern society, right after "political correctness".

And they are actually related.

The root of them is the same. The ability to ignore the fact that A is A, a stone is a stone and not a flower, and a parasite is a parasite even if you call it "needy".

Simply put, it's the ability to accept bullshit as fact, and the ability to justify bad behavior via lies.

 

[SupraMario]

It is the second largest problem with modern society, right after "political correctness".

And they are actually related.

The root of them is the same. The ability to ignore the fact that A is A, a stone is a stone and not a flower, and a parasite is a parasite even if you call it "needy".

Simply put, it's the ability to accept bullshit as fact, and the ability to justify bad behavior via lies.

I'm assuming I'm being pointed out in this?
I agree with a lot of things you say mike, but some things I do not see as a reasonable explanation as to why a company that, mind you almost #1(or are they now?) on the auto sales charts, would force their customers who own the $30k vehicles that they created, to purchase a repair manual for their product. Wouldn't it piss you off if you bought something only to find out that you had to buy a book to figure out how to put it together? Kinda puts a new twist on the, "some assembly required, and batteries not included".

Copyright laws were put in place for ONE sole reason, to keep people from selling someone else's idea, yet its been twisted to the point that its being used to squeeze more money out of the consumer. Am I selling someone else's hard work? Some principals were flawed when designed.

 

[Supracentral]

I'm assuming I'm being pointed out in this?

Actually not at all. I was simply replying to JJ's general comment.

However:

I agree with a lot of things you say mike, but some things I do not see as a reasonable explanation as to why a company that, mind you almost #1(or are they now?) on the auto sales charts, would force their customers who own the $30k vehicles that they created, to purchase a repair manual for their product.

I don't recall being "forced" to do anything. I wanted Toyota's knowlege, they named a price, I paid it.

The only people using "force" are the people stealing the manual without paying the price the rightful owner asked for it.

Wouldn't it piss you off if you bought something only to find out that you had to buy a book to figure out how to put it together? Kinda puts a new twist on the, "some assembly required, and batteries not included".

Bullshit, and 100% flawed logic. Your Supra was not delivered by Toyota in a disassembled, non working state. Instead of thanking Toyota for making a product that has far outlasted it's original warranty, you are using the vehicles age as a reason to justify stealing from them?!?!?!

Copyright laws were put in place for ONE sole reason, to keep people from selling someone else's idea, yet its been twisted to the point that its being used to squeeze more money out of the consumer.

Ok, so you are stating that Toyota does not have a right to it's own intellectual property? You can always go buy a Haynes manual for $19.99 if you don't like Toyota's asking price. They created the work, they have the right to profit off of it.

Don't you feel you have a right to compensation for the work you do? If not you are more than welcome to come over here and mow my one acre back yard for free....

Am I selling someone else's hard work? Some principals were flawed when designed.

When Toyota created that manual, they did so in order to be paid for it. Now you seem to think that you somehow have a right to take that property from Toyota?

Really?

Can I just arbitrarily decide what of yours you are "allowed" to keep?

 

[dugums]

Wouldn't it piss you off if you bought something only to find out that you had to buy a book to figure out how to put it together? Kinda puts a new twist on the, "some assembly required, and batteries not included".

WTF? I am mad. I didn't get the factory service manual with my TV, stove, refrigerator --- oh --- I guess I didn't get it with anything that I have bought. Moreover, I don't even have the option to get one of these manuals in most cases.

I think it's pretty nice that there is a manual like this available. It's even reasonably priced. I have some Volvo service manuals that cost about $900 each and are not as detailed as the 1989 Supra TSRM that I have. Even if you wanted to shell out the money for the Volvo manual, it is not for sale to the public.

 

[suprabad]

D34DC11 is right. Period.

Opposing view has totally missed the point (you know who you are).

I'm not going to cover every absurd point made by others (unless challenged...), but let me first point out a couple of things to the self-righteous purveyors of truth justice and the American way (I can tell we like ourselves allot).

In any legal contract or binding agreement, the first and most important element is good faith, without it no contract exists, according to civil law.

Corporations (Toyota included) have violated this basic tenant innumerable times. So, if you’d like an example of thievery and violation of both written and implied contract, look no further than every big corp. existing in the world today. This is before you even consider environmental, economic and human rights laws being violated with alarming consistency by the corporations that clearly have many of us so brainwashed that their victims will defend their right to neglect, swindle and generally lie to the very people that keep them in business (and golden parachutes). I liken this attitude to blindly and willfully worshipping the slavemaster. I will remind you that our forefathers ransacked a ship over their favorite breakfast beverage. Were they thieves? It is ones duty to stand up for ones self in the face of tyranny.

Some of the views and opinions I read in this thread are so shamefully self righteous and “holier than thou” that frankly, I’m embarrassed for the obviously insecure robots that had the lack of insight to post them.


Calling people thieves because they use the online TSRM shows a distinct lack of empathy and i.e. character.

Those of you out there who are so eager to show everyone how reputable and smart you are, might want to slow down and set aside your giant egos long enough to actually think for yourselves, rather than regurgitating pitiful self-serving rhetoric thinly disguised as morality.

 

[isnms]

Calling people thieves because they use the online TSRM shows a distinct lack of empathy and i.e. character.

No one called him a thief because he uses the online TSRM. In fact the very first post I state that I use it.

This is the character you are defending:

...I'm a massive pirate, and I'm proud of it...

 

[Supracentral]

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns - or dollars. Take your choice - there is no other - and your time is running out."

Just keep that in mind, years from now, when you've "won" the war against the evil capitalist and his corporation.

Odds are you will not be the one holding the whip...

 

[suprabad]

No one called him a thief because he uses the online TSRM. In fact the very first post I state that I use it.

This is the character you are defending:

( D34DC311)...I'm a massive pirate, and I'm proud of it...

Personal character aside, I take issue with oppressive corporations that feel no responsibility or loyalty to anyone.

I also find it very disheartening that so many people would rather promote their own sense of piety than choose to exercise independent thought, or question authority.

 

[suprabad]

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns - or dollars. Take your choice - there is no other - and your time is running out."

Just keep that in mind, years from now, when you've "won" the war against the evil capitalist and his corporation.

Odds are you will not be the one holding the whip...

Ayn Rand did not forsee the monopolzation and the resulting lack of choice among consumers, or the unfair political influence these corporations wield.

And speaking of copyright, you didn't give Ayn Rand credit for the quote.

Your point is moot.

 

[jetjock]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. A thief is a thief. Period. If you take rightfully owned property from someone that was not offered to you you're stealing. Doesn't matter if you sell it or not. Doesn't even matter if you derive zero benefit from taking it. Doesn't matter if it's ideas, music, code, books, or a pile of shit. It's stealing. I'm amazed all this even needs to be pointed out. Thieves are the lowest form of life on Earth. They're what pond scum wipe *their* feet on.

 

[Techno Supra]

I bought mine. Waaay better than chilton's. I learned a lot when I first bought my supra using the TSRM. Anytime I've had to take the car to a mechanic for something I wasn't sure of or didn't have the tools for I made sure to leave it on the passenger seat. Based on oily fingerprints I'd bet the mechanic referenced it a few time too.

 

[suprabad]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. A thief is a thief. Period. If you take rightfully owned property from someone that was not offered to you for free you're stealing. Doesn't matter if you sell it or not. Doesn't even matter if you derive zero benefit from taking it. Doesn't matter if it's ideas, music, code, books, or a pile of shit. It's stealing. I'm amazed all this even needs to be pointed out. Thieves are the lowest form of life on Earth. They're what pond scum wipe *their* feet on.

Ok morality judge/enforcer/alterboy:

Then start with the top of the order when pointing out thieves, instead of cowardly singling out the bottom of the food chain.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, supporting and endorsing thievery at the highest level is the only thing lower than the actual thief himself.