dumb things you've heard lately

[Furball]

More to the point, how about explaining the changes to humankind since the start of recorded history? Ever notice that the suits of armour in museums in Europe are all small? That's because the average height has been steadily increasing. Notice that Olympic records always get broken - even before we had drug abuse to blame? That's because we are getting stronger and faster, with better control over our capabilities.

Now extrapolate that over unrecorded history - which is by far the larger portion of our history - and evolution doesn't seem so unreasonable.

I wanted to address this Grimjack, I just got caught up replying to other posts. Hight is a dominant gene in humans, as is dark hair, and dark eyes. People getting taller over time makes a lot of sense, especially with people having better nutrients to support growth. Again gaining hight is not macro evolution. Those suits of armor were built for people, whether short or tall, they are still people. This falls under the tall giraffe discussion.

 

[GrimJack]

Furball, I'm just picking on the Catholic church because it's easy. Christianity has been through some tough times - and when I can go buy seven different versions of the Bible right now, I wonder how many versions there were before today - and how closely they resemble what I can purchase today?

This book could have been given to man by God a long time ago, but I do not think mankind is responsible enough to keep it in the same condition for very long - certainly not 2000+ years. If our forefathers didn't respect Jesus himself that much, what makes you think they would respect a book?

Furthermore - and this is more of a stretch, so I apologize in advance - IMHO we shouldn't need a book to tell us how to relate to God. We know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil - the choices we make are pretty clear, if sometimes difficult to make.

 

[GrimJack]

I wanted to address this Grimjack, I just got caught up replying to other posts. Hight is a dominant gene in humans, as is dark hair, and dark eyes. People getting taller over time makes a lot of sense, especially with people having better nutrients to support growth. Again gaining hight is not macro evolution. Those suits of armor were built for people, whether short or tall, they are still people. This falls under the tall giraffe discussion.

Agreed - I'm not disputing the macro evolution theory one way or another, I don't think anyone has a sufficient understanding of how a universe could be created, either naturally or via an omnipitent being.

Either way, it's beyond our understanding, so debating it is pointless IMO.

Maybe we can revisit the subject in another 100 years - or another 1000, who knows what our children will be capable of.

 

[Joel W.]

The problem with the "put giraffes in water for millions of years" theory is that they'd all drown. There is no survival of the fittest theory, cause no matter how fit they are, they would all die.

i didnt say how much water or to submerge them completely,, just change thier enviroment slowly..they would adapt as all life has done...

 

[Furball]

This book could have been given to man by God a long time ago, but I do not think mankind is responsible enough to keep it in the same condition for very long - certainly not 2000+ years. If our forefathers didn't respect Jesus himself that much, what makes you think they would respect a book?

They wouldn't, but others did,and because of those others the book was preserved. There are many translations of the Bible, but that does not mean they say different things. They same the same thing in different ways.

Furthermore - and this is more of a stretch, so I apologize in advance - IMHO we shouldn't need a book to tell us how to relate to God. We know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil - the choices we make are pretty clear, if sometimes difficult to make.

Unfortunately many people don't know the difference between right and wrong. How often is it heard the we need to let people be, and not interfere with their beliefs. Tollerence is good to a point, but if someone says you can be saved by killing babies don't you think that should be dealt with?

The Bible is more than just a way to relate to God. It is a historical account, and a constant guide. It is always good to be reminded and encouraged why you follow the path you do.

 

[Furball]

i didnt say how much water or to submerge them completely,, just change thier enviroment slowly..they would adapt as all life has done...

Why would they swim if they could stand? Hippos like to stand in water, yet thy have no gills nor fins. Why is that? Just a couple of questions.

 

[YourHondaSux]

Agreed - I'm not disputing the macro evolution theory one way or another, I don't think anyone has a sufficient understanding of how a universe could be created, either naturally or via an omnipitent being.

Either way, it's beyond our understanding, so debating it is pointless IMO.

Maybe we can revisit the subject in another 100 years - or another 1000, who knows what our children will be capable of.

Exactly.

It seems that several of us on this board are "agnostics". That means that we believe that there is no possible way for us to know how we got here. We are not saying that evolution is absolute truth. All we are saying is that evolution is at least based on some form of research and experimentation. And you've already acknowleged that "micro evolution" exists. So at least the general principle behind the whole idea can be proven and is feasible. That is the nature of "science"...It doesn't become "science" until it is proven in some manner.
Now, creationism, on the other hand REQUIRES you to abandon the whole concept of "proof". You have to have blind faith in the story that there is an all knowing, omnipotent being that has the ultimate power to will things into existence. There is absolutely no physical evidence or any way to prove the idea at all. Not one bit. As opposed to "proving" the idea, priests, rabbis, and all religious leaders, desparately try to persuade you to abandon your desire for proof, and completely surrender to their teachings based on faith. This is why it is referred to as "blind faith"

 

[Joel W.]

i dunno.. maybe because in africa, lake waters receed yearly rivers dry up.., if the hippos had gills they may not have survived. mostly hippos are land mamels and they only go into the water for protection and to get outa the heat.. and they are so much more agile in the water..fat floats...

 

[GrimJack]

Tollerence is good to a point, but if someone says you can be saved by killing babies don't you think that should be dealt with?

I think we are simply going to have to agree to disagree here. Luckily, I don't think either of us is going to advocate killing babies any time soon.

 

[Joel W.]

ok by me... to agree to disagree, and not kill babies...

 

[Furball]

Exactly.

It seems that several of us on this board are "agnostics". That means that we believe that there is no possible way for us to know how we got here. We are not saying that evolution is absolute truth. All we are saying is that evolution is at least based on some form of research and experimentation. And you've already acknowleged that "micro evolution" exists. So at least the general principle behind the whole idea can be proven and is feasible. That is the nature of "science"...It doesn't become "science" until it is proven in some manner.
Now, creationism, on the other hand REQUIRES you to abandon the whole concept of "proof". You have to have blind faith in the story that there is an all knowing, omnipotent being that has the ultimate power to will things into existence. There is absolutely no physical evidence or any way to prove the idea at all. Not one bit. As opposed to "proving" the idea, priests, rabbis, and all religious leaders, desparately try to persuade you to abandon your desire for proof, and completely surrender to their teachings based on faith. This is why it is referred to as "blind faith"

I think you have had a bad experience in this realm. Some people just want to have faith, others need answers. There are plenty of Christian scientists that show proof of why to believe in creationism. They don't just blindly follow. I know many pastors who study hard and do not just follow blindly.
Even the Bible calls us not to just proceed on blind faith.

"But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you..." 1 Peter 3:15

Check out http://reasons.org/
That is Hugh Ross' site. He is a very well known, very smart Christian scientist. He is an Old Earth creationist, so some of his debates are against New Earth creationists, but do not affect the creation debate.

I will also try to find you the email to another scientist who will answer whatever questions you have.

 

[SnowMongoose]

lol @ creationism
"science dont got shit on us!"

see, my problem with debating against hardcore religious people is that no matter how many times you try to convince them, they wont ever stop thinking that way.
That having been said, furball is a cut above most religious type people one runs across on the internet, but arguing versus science with as much support as evolution is just like banging your head against a brick wall.

 

[YourHondaSux]

I think you have had a bad experience in this realm. Some people just want to have faith, others need answers. There are plenty of Christian scientists that show proof of why to believe in creationism. They don't just blindly follow. I know many pastors who study hard and do not just follow blindly.
Even the Bible calls us not to just proceed on blind faith.

"But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you..." 1 Peter 3:15

Check out http://reasons.org/
That is Hugh Ross' site. He is a very well known, very smart Christian scientist. He is an Old Earth creationist, so some of his debates are against New Earth creationists, but do not affect the creation debate.

I will also try to find you the email to another scientist who will answer whatever questions you have.

OK buddy, this discussion has officially become pointless. You refuse to budge or at least attempt to see anyone else's point. Your church has done a really good job. I have made tons of statements that you have not even addressed much less refuted. You have stated no facts. I don't know who Hugh Ross is and i really don't care. And don't bother with the email of that other "christian scientist who will answer whatever questions I have." Be weary of anyone who claims to be able to answer your questions regarding God and how we got here. But I know that advice is falling on deaf ears. Everyone has there own reasons for believing what they do. If creationism is what floats your boat and sets your soul at ease, then more power to ya. Have fun at church!

 

[YourHondaSux]

lol @ creationism
"science dont got shit on us!"

see, my problem with debating against hardcore religious people is that no matter how many times you try to convince them, they wont ever stop thinking that way.
That having been said, furball is a cut above most religious type people one runs across on the internet, but arguing versus science with as much support as evolution is just like banging your head against a brick wall.

:werd:

 

[Furball]

lol @ creationism
"science dont got shit on us!"

see, my problem with debating against hardcore religious people is that no matter how many times you try to convince them, they wont ever stop thinking that way.
That having been said, furball is a cut above most religious type people one runs across on the internet, but arguing versus science with as much support as evolution is just like banging your head against a brick wall.

You show me proof of macro evolution. The site I posted has many articles, WRITTEN BY A SCIENTIST with very good debates for creationism proven in a SCIENTIFIC way. I want you to show off your support of evolution. I'll be glad to go the scientific route.

I have to go to work now. I'll be back later to see if you have accepted the challenge.

 

[YourHondaSux]

You show me proof of macro evolution. The site I posted has many articles, WRITTEN BY A SCIENTIST with very good debates for creationism proven in a SCIENTIFIC way. I want you to show off your support of evolution. I'll be glad to go the scientific route.

I have to go to work now. I'll be back later to see if you have accepted the challenge.

I'm done banging my head against the wall. Like I said....Have fun at church.

 

[tragictoothpickaccident]

Funny, that's how most "religious" people feel about arguing with other people.. Which, by the way, is what this conversation is. It is not a debate (you know, the kind of intelligent conversation where one side presents a claim and then backs it up with proof, waits for the other side to do the same, considers it, and then offers a rebuttal, etc.) I believe that's the kind of conversation where people change.

I'm actually intrigued by much of what you said, and wish to understand you better... be patient. It takes time to sift through the "tons" of statements you've made and find some worthy of addressing.

All this to say: don't be angry with us for not changing if you're not willing to change yourself... and don't be hasty to dub this discussion pointless because someone's actually careful enough with what he says to try to offer that all-important "proof."

 

[YourHondaSux]

Funny, that's how most "religious" people feel about arguing with other people.. Which, by the way, is what this conversation is. It is not a debate (you know, the kind of intelligent conversation where one side presents a claim and then backs it up with proof, waits for the other side to do the same, considers it, and then offers a rebuttal, etc.) I believe that's the kind of conversation where people change.

I'm actually intrigued by much of what you said, and wish to understand you better... be patient. It takes time to sift through the "tons" of statements you've made and find some worthy of addressing.

All this to say: don't be angry with us for not changing if you're not willing to change yourself... and don't be hasty to dub this discussion pointless because someone's actually careful enough with what he says to try to offer that all-important "proof."

I assume you're talking to me?

OK, I'm not trying to change anyone. It doesn't affect me one way or another what someone believes. I am not out to "convert" anyone to evolutionism. I am merely saying that with regards to the "how we got here" question, evolution offers at least some form of proof. It is founded in science. The definition of science requires it to be proven in some manner. Creationism, on the other hand, abandons the idea of proof. I know ol Furball has the email of a guy who apparantly was there when god created everything so he can "answer all my questions". But if you go to any church, the LAST thing the priest, pastor, rabbi, whatever-is going to offer you is physical proof. The idea of creationism REQUIRES you to rely on blind faith - not physical proof.
And I'll state this one more time...I don't care what someone believes. If you want to believe in Christianity, Islam, Judeism, or whatever....I don't care. If it makes you happy, then do it.
And just for a little background info, I grew up in the church. Up until I was 16 I was hard-core into religion. I have read the bible...cover to cover-more than once. I have given speeches in front of the congregation. The whole works. It wasn't until I was 16 that I started questioning the whole idea. I quit the whole religion scene once I realized that the only proof of the bible....is the bible itself.

 

[xarewhyayen]

i hear that the CIA is interested in the interrogation skills of Dr. Phil. and no im not joking i really heard this on the radio... they have tried to recreate the way he talks to people and always gets them to come out about things but cant so they want to talk to him personally and maybe use him. how nuckin futs is that? hm.

 

[GrimJack]

Arg! I can't leave it alone...

The Bible is by it's definition, unverifiable. If anything in it can be proven, the entire thing falls apart.

Sound crazy?

Think on this - if anything were provable truth, then you wouldn't need faith. Faith is one of the basic requirements that Christianity is built on - without that, you don't have much. If, on the other hand, anything were provable false in the Bible, it would create a different reaction with the same long term effect.