Why is the 2jzgte so much better?
- Thread starter suprahabsfan
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Threads like these are for dreamers..
Fist of all to make over 1000rwhp requires aftermarket forged internals no matter what motor you have. Not to mention all the other requirements like cams/built head, standalone, and a massive fuel system, along with a massive turbo kit. Don't forgte the $2-4K multi disc clutch. All this stuff is out of the budget for most of people on this forum. Also, remember that at this power level, you can not run anything but good race gas (at about $14 per gallon).
Another thing. Although the 7M head flow sucks, the 2JZ head isn't that great either, and the 1JZ is even worse. Most modern cylinder heads flow much better than the 2JZ. Put a giant turbo on almost anything, and it will make power.
Fist of all to make over 1000rwhp requires aftermarket forged internals no matter what motor you have. Not to mention all the other requirements like cams/built head, standalone, and a massive fuel system, along with a massive turbo kit. Don't forgte the $2-4K multi disc clutch. All this stuff is out of the budget for most of people on this forum. Also, remember that at this power level, you can not run anything but good race gas (at about $14 per gallon).
Another thing. Although the 7M head flow sucks, the 2JZ head isn't that great either, and the 1JZ is even worse. Most modern cylinder heads flow much better than the 2JZ. Put a giant turbo on almost anything, and it will make power.
I'm glad this thread came up, to be honest. I've had the 7M vs 2JZ debate return and raging through my head for the past few days.
A 2JZ from the factory is perfectly square (bore=stroke). A 7M is undersquare (bore<stroke), meaning the 7M is basically already a stroked motor... ain't hard to see that it's going to be much more difficult to make a 7M more than 3.0L, as opposed to a 2JZ. Displacement is the king of horsepower when it comes to easy, cheap, reliable. Making a 2JZ 3.2L, 3.3L, or 3.4L is basically off the shelf parts.
I think 7M stroker kits are all custom jobs... but keep in mind that doing that is going to make the crank and rods rediculously huge, and keep your engine speed down.
The 7M is what it is, it's a great motor, brilliant motor even. But it has its limits... It's not the little engine that could... Spending tens of thousands to make a 7M do something a 2JZ can do for far, far less, is fruitless; shy of proving the point that it can be done. But, by that point, there's not much 7M left in the engine anyway. The people who sit around convincing themselves the 7M is the greatest thing since fuel injection are just setting themselves up for alot of pain later. Like all things, it is what it is... trying to make it what its not is just lying to yourself.
The 7M is a great motor, I'll hear nothing different. But it is an antiquated design when set next to other engines that are readily available to go into the A70 chassis. But when you consider that the motor design is over 22 years old and can push the kind of power some of the guys here do, it is truely amazing. That said 7M=/=2JZ... but damn, a 22 year old design that can still kick the kind of ass that the 7M does today, that's the amazing part.
The 7M is a legendary engine and it's day isn't done, IMO. But for those that want an engine that can take more shit, there's more advanced and better suited than the M series. JZ, UZ, LS, take your pick.
Like all things in automobiles, the 7M is a trade off. A 3.0L engine that makes the kind of torque it does, is impressive. But, the 'wet-noodle' syndrome, HG issues, oiling issues, ect, ect, are its weaknesses. You can build them out if you have the money... but most of us just want to get the spending part done and get right to the driving part; the reason we chose the A70.
I've nothing but respect for the 7M, make no mistake about that. But I'd rather pile thousands of my hard earned dollars into something that's tried, tested, and true.
A 2JZ from the factory is perfectly square (bore=stroke). A 7M is undersquare (bore<stroke), meaning the 7M is basically already a stroked motor... ain't hard to see that it's going to be much more difficult to make a 7M more than 3.0L, as opposed to a 2JZ. Displacement is the king of horsepower when it comes to easy, cheap, reliable. Making a 2JZ 3.2L, 3.3L, or 3.4L is basically off the shelf parts.
I think 7M stroker kits are all custom jobs... but keep in mind that doing that is going to make the crank and rods rediculously huge, and keep your engine speed down.
The 7M is what it is, it's a great motor, brilliant motor even. But it has its limits... It's not the little engine that could... Spending tens of thousands to make a 7M do something a 2JZ can do for far, far less, is fruitless; shy of proving the point that it can be done. But, by that point, there's not much 7M left in the engine anyway. The people who sit around convincing themselves the 7M is the greatest thing since fuel injection are just setting themselves up for alot of pain later. Like all things, it is what it is... trying to make it what its not is just lying to yourself.
The 7M is a great motor, I'll hear nothing different. But it is an antiquated design when set next to other engines that are readily available to go into the A70 chassis. But when you consider that the motor design is over 22 years old and can push the kind of power some of the guys here do, it is truely amazing. That said 7M=/=2JZ... but damn, a 22 year old design that can still kick the kind of ass that the 7M does today, that's the amazing part.
The 7M is a legendary engine and it's day isn't done, IMO. But for those that want an engine that can take more shit, there's more advanced and better suited than the M series. JZ, UZ, LS, take your pick.
Like all things in automobiles, the 7M is a trade off. A 3.0L engine that makes the kind of torque it does, is impressive. But, the 'wet-noodle' syndrome, HG issues, oiling issues, ect, ect, are its weaknesses. You can build them out if you have the money... but most of us just want to get the spending part done and get right to the driving part; the reason we chose the A70.
I've nothing but respect for the 7M, make no mistake about that. But I'd rather pile thousands of my hard earned dollars into something that's tried, tested, and true.
just MY OPINION and nothing more.
How people think that they can buy a car that is a minimum of 16 years old, crank the boost up/ up the power and expect zero issue is, basically undescribly STUPID/IDIOTIC. Seriously!
The issue is not the 7m. Never has been. Even though the 7m has deficencies, in the end. the issue always returns to, what was not done correctly for the power being created (see a bove).
By that I mean. I see people STILL attempting to run damn piggy backs to get high horsepower. Sorry, with the known correlations of fuel injection and ignition timing, to even attemp that at any moderate power levels much less absurd levels, is just absolutely insane! All without ever doing basic fucking maintanace on the car (check/replace hoses, health of engine and associated drive line etc).
Why not run a standalone. Because it cost to much!
Why are walbro so popular? It sure as hell is not because they work! They are CHEAP! Hell, besides Duane there are only a HANDFUL of people that run a Magnafuel/Aeromotive/Weldon setup. Never see them with fueling issues!
Aftermarket damper..... To expensive. I'll go to the junkyard to pick another OEM one.
and the cheapness is ad nauseam endlessly.
In the end. EXCUSES. Nothing more. People want lots of pony on the cheap. Sorry. That triangle thing just does not apply. THe real equation is Power = $. If you have lots of $ you can attain lots of power. Otherwise, you are stuck with the HKS bumpups.
Fueling will always be the deal breaker for the common cheap MKIII Supra owner. Why? Like most are willing to shell out $1k MINIMUM to do it right. Sorry. Hasn't happened yet, and will not happen.
How people think that they can buy a car that is a minimum of 16 years old, crank the boost up/ up the power and expect zero issue is, basically undescribly STUPID/IDIOTIC. Seriously!
The issue is not the 7m. Never has been. Even though the 7m has deficencies, in the end. the issue always returns to, what was not done correctly for the power being created (see a bove).
By that I mean. I see people STILL attempting to run damn piggy backs to get high horsepower. Sorry, with the known correlations of fuel injection and ignition timing, to even attemp that at any moderate power levels much less absurd levels, is just absolutely insane! All without ever doing basic fucking maintanace on the car (check/replace hoses, health of engine and associated drive line etc).
Why not run a standalone. Because it cost to much!
Why are walbro so popular? It sure as hell is not because they work! They are CHEAP! Hell, besides Duane there are only a HANDFUL of people that run a Magnafuel/Aeromotive/Weldon setup. Never see them with fueling issues!
Aftermarket damper..... To expensive. I'll go to the junkyard to pick another OEM one.
and the cheapness is ad nauseam endlessly.
In the end. EXCUSES. Nothing more. People want lots of pony on the cheap. Sorry. That triangle thing just does not apply. THe real equation is Power = $. If you have lots of $ you can attain lots of power. Otherwise, you are stuck with the HKS bumpups.
Fueling will always be the deal breaker for the common cheap MKIII Supra owner. Why? Like most are willing to shell out $1k MINIMUM to do it right. Sorry. Hasn't happened yet, and will not happen.
Dylan JZ;1001802 said:
actaully no, he is correct
take the BMW. That head flows. A LOT. No amount of port work will make the 2jz flow anywhere near as much as, say an M52 head. Not even remotely close.
"That just ruined your credibility, thought I'd let ya know."
Not quite. The 2JZ flows about 235 cfms on the intake ports. The 1JZ flows about 215 cfms. Both at .400 lift. Theres even a greater diparity on the exhaust ports. The 7M is right around 200 cfms on the intake side. And if I remember correctly the 7M exhaust ports flowed a couple CFM's better than the 1JZ.
This is all based off of Erin Carpenders findings from supraforums.
And yes, figgie is right. No matter what you have, horsepower=money.
Not quite. The 2JZ flows about 235 cfms on the intake ports. The 1JZ flows about 215 cfms. Both at .400 lift. Theres even a greater diparity on the exhaust ports. The 7M is right around 200 cfms on the intake side. And if I remember correctly the 7M exhaust ports flowed a couple CFM's better than the 1JZ.
This is all based off of Erin Carpenders findings from supraforums.
And yes, figgie is right. No matter what you have, horsepower=money.
well guys, i will be that bold person to say it, cus i know were all thinking it but dont want to be ridiculed for speaking such blasphemy.... do we really need THAT much power?
i mean on a DD do you really want to have that much get up an go, cus face it no matter where you live or how long/short your daily commute is you use gas, and in a strait 6 you use a lot of it, and i get decent gas mileage wiht only and exhaust and intake so im prolly makin like 280 IF that, if i had 800 hp i really just couldnt see myself bein able to stand payin that much for gas every day, the way i see it, if its my DD then 4-500HP (even though it would have horrible gas mileage) would most likely kick anythings ass, and even if it didnt, then whatever it wouldnt is most likely a pretty damn bad ass ride itself, so i repeat
for a DD do you really want/ can you really afford the gas budget of 800 hp??
i mean on a DD do you really want to have that much get up an go, cus face it no matter where you live or how long/short your daily commute is you use gas, and in a strait 6 you use a lot of it, and i get decent gas mileage wiht only and exhaust and intake so im prolly makin like 280 IF that, if i had 800 hp i really just couldnt see myself bein able to stand payin that much for gas every day, the way i see it, if its my DD then 4-500HP (even though it would have horrible gas mileage) would most likely kick anythings ass, and even if it didnt, then whatever it wouldnt is most likely a pretty damn bad ass ride itself, so i repeat
for a DD do you really want/ can you really afford the gas budget of 800 hp??
KERO - What is the "wet-noodle" syndrome?
FIGGIE - Do walbros fail often? What is your reccomended fuel pump?
I started this thread because the 7m engine deserves a lot more respect then it gets. It IS a venerable engine no matter how old. Think about this - DP w/ 3" elbow and full three inch exhaust ($700), MBC set to 12psi ($65 or so), Intake ($100).... all this for $865 and you have a beast on your hands (to most people). That is my exact setup on my car Plus BOV and people can't believe how fast it is and how smooth and well it runs. All it took was a little bit of money and maintenence (most of it preventative maintenence). Take care of the engine and it will take care of you. period. Also, aside from the engine, the supra was way ahead of its time, with automatic electronic climate control, auto down windows, headlight washer option, adjustable seat side bolsters, progressive steering option, ECT auto trans....all this from a car 19 years old! A lot of new cars on the road don't have these options or luxuries!
FIGGIE - Do walbros fail often? What is your reccomended fuel pump?
I started this thread because the 7m engine deserves a lot more respect then it gets. It IS a venerable engine no matter how old. Think about this - DP w/ 3" elbow and full three inch exhaust ($700), MBC set to 12psi ($65 or so), Intake ($100).... all this for $865 and you have a beast on your hands (to most people). That is my exact setup on my car Plus BOV and people can't believe how fast it is and how smooth and well it runs. All it took was a little bit of money and maintenence (most of it preventative maintenence). Take care of the engine and it will take care of you. period. Also, aside from the engine, the supra was way ahead of its time, with automatic electronic climate control, auto down windows, headlight washer option, adjustable seat side bolsters, progressive steering option, ECT auto trans....all this from a car 19 years old! A lot of new cars on the road don't have these options or luxuries!
What giterboosted said...
Not to mention, IMO, the 'drivabilty' of anything over 550ish is borderline retarded. You might not agree, but I can't see a daily driver with anything over 500whp. Big turbos lag too much causing peaky power bands, larger injectors make the idle and off boost driving crappy, stand alones are a true pain to get everything "right" making a daily driver not so much fun, et al.
Giter, I run the Currahee Challenge every year, we'll have to hook up at the next one
Not to mention, IMO, the 'drivabilty' of anything over 550ish is borderline retarded. You might not agree, but I can't see a daily driver with anything over 500whp. Big turbos lag too much causing peaky power bands, larger injectors make the idle and off boost driving crappy, stand alones are a true pain to get everything "right" making a daily driver not so much fun, et al.
Giter, I run the Currahee Challenge every year, we'll have to hook up at the next one
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suprahabsfan;1001914 said:
The 7M lacks rigidity at rediculously high stresses caused by the pressures of running 4 digit power numbers. This doesn't mean it can't take it; what it does mean is that there's twisting and bending between cylinder #1 and cylinder #6.
IIRC, it was a discussion from one of IJ's posts. I do believe he had numbers to back it up.
This discussion isn't about the practicality of having +1000hp, it's about whether or not the engines can do it.
300hp is plenty enough to get me into trouble with the law, break parts, and burn shit-tons of gas.
Well the reason i was asking about 800 hp as a dd Was also to have it setup to be streetable as a DD but with say a 2 stage fuel system and boost settings..be able to hit that 800 hp with a click of mouse... there are alot of 500+hp cars here in daytona...ANYONE can have a 500 hp car. here.. 90% are chevys to...So i guess why i was asking...
HommerSimpson;1001967 said:
have you, yourself ever ridden in a car that had 400rwhp much less 500 rwhp?
so because the in thing is that people start jumping off a cliff, you will be next in line too?
Never understood the monkey see, monkey do mentality. :nono:
suprahabsfan;1001914 said:
At th price, I am not willing to find out.
The Denso pump from the MKIV is more than capable. A HELL of alot more efficent than the walbro and unlike the walbro, it does not fall flat on its face past 75 psi.
figgie;1002017 said:
Umm yes i have owned a few and drove QUITE afew...including a blown vett that boss bought..and i was only one alowed to drive it... it tended to want to get a tad squirly when you floored it.. at ANY SPEED..