Which engine?
- Thread starter gtsxtt
- Start date
BryanDyer;1940815 said:
I found ls1 complete change out w/accessories and 6 speed trans for $4070 and under at car-part.com. Some come with harness and ECU too.
They also have lq9 w/aod for around $2100.
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Lance aka Rajunz, that is his red car for sale. The targa brace, I can't remember who makes it, but only 3 or 4 sets were made and he got one of the first and only sets. The motor that is in my car right now was put together by myself and him in his garage almost entirely. I've known the guy since 2000-2001. You will not find a nicer and more stand up guy in the Supra community or anywhere else for that matter. PERIOD.
I actually went to the Australian V8 SuperCar race at the Circuit of the Americas track here in Austin last weekend with him and his wife and mine and he is moving on to a modern Detroit muscle car. He's a Mopar guy so I'm sure you can figure out what car that is. His MK3 has been meticulously cared for and anyone that gets it and buys it will be one fortunate person.
The 2JZ Maverick he built was a contest put on my Spectre Performance in California. They had a contest quite a few years ago of deciding and designing what a Maverick could have with modern parts. It came with a straight 6 originally so he drew and designed the car, won the contest, got to build the car, and then drove it on the Hot Rod Power Tour at least twice now.
I actually went to the Australian V8 SuperCar race at the Circuit of the Americas track here in Austin last weekend with him and his wife and mine and he is moving on to a modern Detroit muscle car. He's a Mopar guy so I'm sure you can figure out what car that is. His MK3 has been meticulously cared for and anyone that gets it and buys it will be one fortunate person.
The 2JZ Maverick he built was a contest put on my Spectre Performance in California. They had a contest quite a few years ago of deciding and designing what a Maverick could have with modern parts. It came with a straight 6 originally so he drew and designed the car, won the contest, got to build the car, and then drove it on the Hot Rod Power Tour at least twice now.
That LS1 is a crate motor, you can get a cheaper one used. The crate motors are very under rated in the numbers they put out (one of the magazines bought one and put out over 400 to the wheels). Regardless, making more power is a simple as a good intake, headers/exhaust, cam, and a tune. Also, all of that stuff is DIRT CHEAP compared to stuff for our motors.
Swapping it in isn't really any worse than going 2JZ-GTE either.
Also, you guys linked Lance's car. It's on ebay now and he has a for sale thread on here. The targa brace is one of two in existence, and the car is easily worth every penny (the underside of that car is spotless as well!) Shame to see him leaving the Supra game though, he's a great guy
Also, welcome back Trent Doubt you'll remember me as I only met you once at one of the Hill Country Cruises.
Swapping it in isn't really any worse than going 2JZ-GTE either.
Also, you guys linked Lance's car. It's on ebay now and he has a for sale thread on here. The targa brace is one of two in existence, and the car is easily worth every penny (the underside of that car is spotless as well!) Shame to see him leaving the Supra game though, he's a great guy
Also, welcome back Trent
Doubt you'll remember me as I only met you once at one of the Hill Country Cruises.
Grandavi;1940788 said:
I do all of my work myself, built multiple bottom ends, built a 7m bottom end that's the only 6cyl I've ever worked on though. I've done pretty much everything to a engine you can think of minus machine work. I can do paint, glass, bushings, suspensions ive done exhaust numerous times I can weld and have access to a pipe bender, also done oem swaps before on other cars and swapped 7ms 6 times. My time really isn't worth much because I enjoy what I do so labor isn't gonna be a cost to me. My suspension and brakes are done after its painted I'm done with it except for my engine and a set of recaros.
Also to someone else who posted I have no idea how my mechanical knowledge is related to my knowledge of Toyota engines
Oh and I'm not interested in a ls1 if I go v8 I'm gonna go 1uz already thought of that. This is a car I always wanted so I'm gonna build it right
The 7m is a good engine if it's put together correctly. A lot of it is preference as many have said, but the 7m is what I would choose. I have had several and pounded the living piss out of them and they took the punishment.
The LS1 engine is great too. I had one paired to a Tremec T-56 Transmission and it was a great match with a lot of power.
Good luck and remember the key is to do the job right the first time with good quality gaskets, seals and parts. Pay now or pay later is so true with the ricer cars especially!
The LS1 engine is great too. I had one paired to a Tremec T-56 Transmission and it was a great match with a lot of power.
Good luck and remember the key is to do the job right the first time with good quality gaskets, seals and parts. Pay now or pay later is so true with the ricer cars especially!
gtsxtt;1940899 said:
1uz. Smaller displacement, lower hp/tq to start with, and very little aftermarket support. Most performance upgrade you'll do will be one off = $$$.
So what have you decided to do? Which engine will you go with?
LS1 would be a cool swap for sure. How many have completed the swap? I seen quite a few guys that set out to do it but very few completed
I have sort of a red theme going on with my build...and just realized I have had Ragunz engine shot as my screensaver for a year now lol. I wish I would have been smart enough to just wait until one like that comes along and buy it lol
IndigoMKII;1940795 said:
S.A. supra;1940848 said:
It's amazing that my poorly designed head with the OE gasket and new OE bolts are holding my setup just fine.. See my above statement, if you repaired it and it failed yet again, it was your fault.
gtsxtt;1940896 said:
If you can do the work yourself, build the 7m. A properly built 7m will run with any JZ engine. If you're deadset on a JZ series, make sure you do everything properly as well. Short cuts on these engines can not only kill you but they can also kill your wallet.
I'm confused, at the very bottom of the initial post you say the car is a n/a 5 spd.
What is current state? (Maybe a list of what the car has currently would be best... Bumper to bumper. Start with the engine.
And put up a few photos.
If its already a turbo'd mk3 with intercooler , ecu, etc... Your budget can get you a no fail setup.
I have a lot of little write up pdfs for doing the engine correctly. (Most from SOGI)
An OEM setup 7M can hold up to approx. 600 crank hp in its native setup, and if you have the head/block prepped properly with a Mhg and arp studs it will never give you an issue. (Providing the head has no issues like warpage or cracking.)
All depends in current status which you are actually quite vague on.
Do this (this is actual status of my car)
- 7mgte freshly built shortblock with polished rods and cram, wiseco 0.5 overbore pistons.
- upgrade DM 7m (Cxracing) intercooler
- 550 rc injectors
-Lexus AFM upgrade
- 3" raptor racing DDP with integrated elbow (2 bung)
- aeromotive AFPR
- AEM UEGO Wideband
- denso mkiv fuel pump
- hks 3" catback exhaust
- EGR and cats deleted
- 60-1 ct26 (t4 upgrades being shipped)
- upgraded rad
- head reconditioned
- HSD Coilovers
- 18" Work Seekers
- Brembo rotors, SS lines
- new AISIN clutch master and slave
- Spec 2+ clutch
- HKS evc-s electronic boost controller
Pics in my build thread (not fully updated)
Now with the above info most could identify my car state and give me proper suggestions.
Want the best answer? Give more info than what you have.
And.. Pics or it didn't happen. We are a long way from you.
What is current state? (Maybe a list of what the car has currently would be best... Bumper to bumper. Start with the engine.
And put up a few photos.
If its already a turbo'd mk3 with intercooler , ecu, etc... Your budget can get you a no fail setup.
I have a lot of little write up pdfs for doing the engine correctly. (Most from SOGI)
An OEM setup 7M can hold up to approx. 600 crank hp in its native setup, and if you have the head/block prepped properly with a Mhg and arp studs it will never give you an issue. (Providing the head has no issues like warpage or cracking.)
All depends in current status which you are actually quite vague on.
Do this (this is actual status of my car)
- 7mgte freshly built shortblock with polished rods and cram, wiseco 0.5 overbore pistons.
- upgrade DM 7m (Cxracing) intercooler
- 550 rc injectors
-Lexus AFM upgrade
- 3" raptor racing DDP with integrated elbow (2 bung)
- aeromotive AFPR
- AEM UEGO Wideband
- denso mkiv fuel pump
- hks 3" catback exhaust
- EGR and cats deleted
- 60-1 ct26 (t4 upgrades being shipped)
- upgraded rad
- head reconditioned
- HSD Coilovers
- 18" Work Seekers
- Brembo rotors, SS lines
- new AISIN clutch master and slave
- Spec 2+ clutch
- HKS evc-s electronic boost controller
Pics in my build thread (not fully updated)
Now with the above info most could identify my car state and give me proper suggestions.
Want the best answer? Give more info than what you have.
And.. Pics or it didn't happen. We are a long way from you.
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Grandavi;1940956 said:
Umm I'm not sure what you're confused about haha it's a 7mge with a w58. Just realised my post says "built" a 7m I've only re built one
In all the time that I've owned a 7M (About 19 years, now) I've had 2 blown head gaskets. Neither of them on a 7M.
I figure that a JZ does have more potential than a 7M. It had better, it's a newer block and head design.
When I was choosing an engine for my '89NA, I considered the 7MJ-GTE, the 1JZ and 2JZ. I considered costs at various power goals, but in all cases, I started with a "just get it in and started." baseline.
For the 7M, that was a complete parts car ($1,000) an OEM gasket set ($400) ARP hardware ($120) and cylinder head work ($750) plus time to do all the work. I probably made back most of the money that I spent for the donor car on parting it out, too.
For the 1JZ, that would be a JZA70 front-cut ($1800 at the time) OEM gasket set ($??? Call it the same $400) motor mounts ($150 now, custom work needed then, or swap crossmember since I have an early '89) Cylinder head work ($750) driveshaft ($100) Wiring harness extension ($350) Also, some changes would be needed to make the power steering work, since the 1JZ front cut would be RHD. I don't know what would be needed for air conditioning, which I wanted to keep. Add in some miscellany as well for things like a 2JZ water pump, or make the hydro-fan work.
For the 2JZ, the cheapest way to do it was to buy all the stuff for the 1JZ, then sell the engine, wiring harness and ECU and buy the 2JZ. Add about $1500, plus more custom work for the wiring harness, probably to the tune of another grand. Also, plan to go single NOW, or take a sledgehammer to the firewall to make the twins fit. The extras put the 2JZ out of the budget at the time, but if I went 1JZ, then a 1.5JZ or 2JZ could be done in the future.
For ~300WHP, the 7M would need Lexus/550s (Bought complete setup for about $400, actually installed these with the 7M-GTE) upgraded IC, pipes and BOV ($425) and boost control. I shimmed the wastegate, and made a Home Depot MBC ($15)
The 1JZ would need boost control, though I'd probably upgrade the intercooler as well. Of course the 2JZ should need nothing.
All engines require an upgraded clutch.
For ~400WHP, the 7M would need an upgraded turbo ($1700) plus what I needed for ~300. Though not "needed" adding a wideband at this point (I bought the Zeitronix $400) I also managed to find a used Turbonetics bolt-on for a bit under $400, much cheaper than the $1700 kit, and lots of potential. The stock head gasket with ARP hardware should still be fine here. This is where I stopped for the 7M-GTE in the '89, as this was the goal from the start.
The 1JZ would need a turbo kit for about the same $1700. I believe that it would also need injectors and some sort of piggyback to deal with them. say $850 with a used Apexi and new injectors. Also time to upgrade the intercooler.
The 2JZ (Assuming non-JDM) would need more boost control and a better intercooler.
All engines need a stage 3 clutch.
For ~500WHP, the 7M needs to be built for it, which I did not. It's not a lot of extra if you're sending the block to a machine shop, but forged pistons and a metal head gasket are probably called for at this point. I had only planned on going here if I could get another engine (which I did for $200) that I could send in to have it done. What with everything else that I bought, I'm probably about $6500 into a build for this level of power.
This is STILL cheaper than a JZ swap, even including purchasing an additional motor to build for it. Also, JZA70 front cuts are getting more difficult to find, and it's a lot more to get a Soarer/Chaser 1JZ, then buy the other stuff to make it fit in an A70 chassis, particularly if that chassis is NA, and you need to buy the R154 and driveshaft as well. (Oh, and if you don't already have limited slip, you'll probably want a differential as well.)
I didn't look to much further ahead of this, but at the time, I felt that ~500WHP was about as far as I'd take a 7M, and to go further than that, a 1.5JZ or 2JZ on stand-alone would be cheaper, just as I figured that more than ~250WHP would be easier/cheaper to swap to a 7M-GTE.
Anyway, looking at the predictable costs for engine swaps, and taking into account the extras for things that I either didn't know for sure, or get glossed over in most swap threads, the 7M swap was the best choice.
Granted, my 7M developed rod knock, but I've heard of this happening with JDM JZ motors which were installed without replacing bearings, too. Certainly no guarantee that I wouldn't have had the same issues with a 1JZ swap.
I figure that a JZ does have more potential than a 7M. It had better, it's a newer block and head design.
When I was choosing an engine for my '89NA, I considered the 7MJ-GTE, the 1JZ and 2JZ. I considered costs at various power goals, but in all cases, I started with a "just get it in and started." baseline.
For the 7M, that was a complete parts car ($1,000) an OEM gasket set ($400) ARP hardware ($120) and cylinder head work ($750) plus time to do all the work. I probably made back most of the money that I spent for the donor car on parting it out, too.
For the 1JZ, that would be a JZA70 front-cut ($1800 at the time) OEM gasket set ($??? Call it the same $400) motor mounts ($150 now, custom work needed then, or swap crossmember since I have an early '89) Cylinder head work ($750) driveshaft ($100) Wiring harness extension ($350) Also, some changes would be needed to make the power steering work, since the 1JZ front cut would be RHD. I don't know what would be needed for air conditioning, which I wanted to keep. Add in some miscellany as well for things like a 2JZ water pump, or make the hydro-fan work.
For the 2JZ, the cheapest way to do it was to buy all the stuff for the 1JZ, then sell the engine, wiring harness and ECU and buy the 2JZ. Add about $1500, plus more custom work for the wiring harness, probably to the tune of another grand. Also, plan to go single NOW, or take a sledgehammer to the firewall to make the twins fit. The extras put the 2JZ out of the budget at the time, but if I went 1JZ, then a 1.5JZ or 2JZ could be done in the future.
For ~300WHP, the 7M would need Lexus/550s (Bought complete setup for about $400, actually installed these with the 7M-GTE) upgraded IC, pipes and BOV ($425) and boost control. I shimmed the wastegate, and made a Home Depot MBC ($15)
The 1JZ would need boost control, though I'd probably upgrade the intercooler as well. Of course the 2JZ should need nothing.
All engines require an upgraded clutch.
For ~400WHP, the 7M would need an upgraded turbo ($1700) plus what I needed for ~300. Though not "needed" adding a wideband at this point (I bought the Zeitronix $400) I also managed to find a used Turbonetics bolt-on for a bit under $400, much cheaper than the $1700 kit, and lots of potential. The stock head gasket with ARP hardware should still be fine here. This is where I stopped for the 7M-GTE in the '89, as this was the goal from the start.
The 1JZ would need a turbo kit for about the same $1700. I believe that it would also need injectors and some sort of piggyback to deal with them. say $850 with a used Apexi and new injectors. Also time to upgrade the intercooler.
The 2JZ (Assuming non-JDM) would need more boost control and a better intercooler.
All engines need a stage 3 clutch.
For ~500WHP, the 7M needs to be built for it, which I did not. It's not a lot of extra if you're sending the block to a machine shop, but forged pistons and a metal head gasket are probably called for at this point. I had only planned on going here if I could get another engine (which I did for $200) that I could send in to have it done. What with everything else that I bought, I'm probably about $6500 into a build for this level of power.
This is STILL cheaper than a JZ swap, even including purchasing an additional motor to build for it. Also, JZA70 front cuts are getting more difficult to find, and it's a lot more to get a Soarer/Chaser 1JZ, then buy the other stuff to make it fit in an A70 chassis, particularly if that chassis is NA, and you need to buy the R154 and driveshaft as well. (Oh, and if you don't already have limited slip, you'll probably want a differential as well.)
I didn't look to much further ahead of this, but at the time, I felt that ~500WHP was about as far as I'd take a 7M, and to go further than that, a 1.5JZ or 2JZ on stand-alone would be cheaper, just as I figured that more than ~250WHP would be easier/cheaper to swap to a 7M-GTE.
Anyway, looking at the predictable costs for engine swaps, and taking into account the extras for things that I either didn't know for sure, or get glossed over in most swap threads, the 7M swap was the best choice.
Granted, my 7M developed rod knock, but I've heard of this happening with JDM JZ motors which were installed without replacing bearings, too. Certainly no guarantee that I wouldn't have had the same issues with a 1JZ swap.
Well said, Dan.
As for the longevity of the 7M, I'll share my story again - before I got into performance parts, I built a 7M with stock parts, including the gasket. The only difference was the head bolt torque, which I set at 80.
Years later, I decided I wanted more power, so I picked up another longblock, tore it completely down, and built a forged engine. I had this complete and waiting to go in, and decided what the hell, how about finding out where the stock system is good to. So, I turned up the boost a few pounds, and kept driving it. No problems. So, I upgraded the intercooler, and kept driving. Then I turned the boost up some more. Then I had problems with fuel cut, so I added a MAFT, and switched the AFM for a MAF... and turned the boost up some more. I kept going on the same path, turning up the boost, upgrading one thing or another, for NINE MONTHS. I had literally given up, and was about to pull the engine anyway, even though I couldn't seem to kill it.
When I finally popped that engine, I was running an upgraded CT-26 with a 60-1 compressor wheel, Spearco IC and hardpipes, MAFT, GM MAF, adjustable FPR, manual boost controller, stock injectors and fuel pump - and 23 POUNDS OF BOOST. Furthermore, I was driving on an extremely hot day, heading up a mountain, and not taking it easy.
7M is a weak engine, and pops head gaskets easily? Bullshit.
PS: Don't try this at home unless you have another engine waiting to drop into the car, folks.
As for the longevity of the 7M, I'll share my story again - before I got into performance parts, I built a 7M with stock parts, including the gasket. The only difference was the head bolt torque, which I set at 80.
Years later, I decided I wanted more power, so I picked up another longblock, tore it completely down, and built a forged engine. I had this complete and waiting to go in, and decided what the hell, how about finding out where the stock system is good to. So, I turned up the boost a few pounds, and kept driving it. No problems. So, I upgraded the intercooler, and kept driving. Then I turned the boost up some more. Then I had problems with fuel cut, so I added a MAFT, and switched the AFM for a MAF... and turned the boost up some more. I kept going on the same path, turning up the boost, upgrading one thing or another, for NINE MONTHS. I had literally given up, and was about to pull the engine anyway, even though I couldn't seem to kill it.
When I finally popped that engine, I was running an upgraded CT-26 with a 60-1 compressor wheel, Spearco IC and hardpipes, MAFT, GM MAF, adjustable FPR, manual boost controller, stock injectors and fuel pump - and 23 POUNDS OF BOOST. Furthermore, I was driving on an extremely hot day, heading up a mountain, and not taking it easy.
7M is a weak engine, and pops head gaskets easily? Bullshit.
PS: Don't try this at home unless you have another engine waiting to drop into the car, folks.
gtsxtt;1940965 said:
I read a different post and thought it was you responding.. lol. Thought you said you had a 7MGTE in it already.
Yeah, either way, your looking at doing a lot of work. If you can do it yourself, your better off as long as you get the parts before you start. Plan everything bumper to bumper regardless which engine you plan on putting into it and prep before you start. Its far far cheaper and easier because you can stock up on the parts you want very cheaply if your doing the work yourself. I paid a lot because of timing. No used items available = buy new. Short time line = pay extra for quick shipping.
My build was totally unplanned (otherwise it would be a 2jz vvti right now) but in the end, other than overpaying for what I had to do, its the only build I should have to do. My engine should last 200-300,000 km now and I only drive 3-5000 km per year.. so... don't foresee any failures in the drivetrain. My 7M is such a different beast now from the stock its simply amazing. On the initial dyno at 14 psi of untuned boost, I pulled 300 rwhp with 387 ft.lbs torque. The torque is simply amazing.
Swapping in a properly built 7M with you doing the work should be easy enough with your budget providing you plan it correctly.
I suggest you decide.. Dan gave a good outline for you.
Make a thread when you are ready to "commit" (more of less) and start researching and build a parts list. Post it up and let people fine tune it. Some will even offer you the parts to complete. When you see the full parts list and get an idea of what your going to need to spend, you can make the final decision and start collecting. Personally, I wouldn't start until you have the parts list. People don't build a house without an architectural drawing and a cutsheet for a reason. If you have time.. take it. If you do it right, you will never look back.
Either platform is good, both have separate issues to address. but its not difficult and its been done a LOT. Tons of build threads with a lot of information, you don't have to make the mistakes if you do the research first.
Just a fyi.. some of us start with the best intentions and think we know exactly what we want.. but it can change as you go. Things have to be altered, fabbed, and developed along the way sometimes. Many people start thinking 6000-10000.00 and end up over 25,000.00 in the end. Nothing compared to the 100,000+ 1000 rwhp builds... lol.
Final comment.. if your going to show the car... go 2jz. The engine bay has a lot more potential. The only thing I really dislike about my 7M is the 3000 pipe going across the head and on top of the turbo. It just seems like bad thinking. However... I cant go FFIM without losing my AC (I am fairly certain)
You absolutely can! Seth sold me a FFIM that kept the AC for my 7M.Grandavi;1940994 said:
Relocating the battery to the trunk would make it a lot easier, but even that's not absolutely required.
GrimJack;1940999 said:
+1
A guy local to me, Rob (92nsx) had A/C working with his FFIM (cruise control too!)
Buying a SupraSport/LIPP alternator drop-down bracket is very helpful. They have two brackets, one that puts the alternator where the A/C compressor usually goes, and one that brings it half-way down, allowing you to keep the A/C compressor.
GrimJack;1940999 said:
Great... now I have to buy one and start prepping for that as well.. lol.. which will mean a new intercooler as well..
... and here is why there are used parts for sale...