Which engine?

[Prism11]

This coming from a guy with a 7m on a engine stand!!!! Lol.. might want to take that aviator down before you start defending the 7m.

Only reason mine is on an engine stand is because the previous owner spun a rod bearing before I bought it, hence why it was being rebuilt.. some people..
But I stuck with the 7M because the cost of a JZ swap wasn't worth it just to get a comparable motor to what I already had.

I'm also defending the 7M here because, if the OP has to ask which engine to put in his car, he probably doesn't have the know how to swap in a different one.

 

[IndigoMKII]

Only reason mine is on an engine stand is because the previous owner spun a rod bearing before I bought it, hence why it was being rebuilt.. some people..

It's cool Prism, don't let the JZ guys get you down. They couldn't keep the 7M because it has less of a tolerance for ignorant owners. I've seen it SO many times before, 99% of the problems for a 7m is the owner. It's the same way for a JZ series engine, they just have newer parts. The time will come when the JZ guys have a worse rep than the 7M because more people are switching to the JZ.

 

[S.A. supra]

Also remember that the jdm 2jzgte comes with 280 hp stock, the usdm 2jzgte comes with 320 hp stock, and 1jzgte with 280 stock hp. So in closing the jzs are not only a better more efficient design, stock mhg, looks a lot better (just look at grimjacks sig), but you get 50-90 more hp. Plus if you decide to sell your car down the road you'll be able to sell it for more, since the 7m comes with a lot of baggage.

The only reason I can think of to stay 7m is if you don't have the funds for a swap. But since he said he is not gonna stay n/a and says he has the money, he might as well do it all the way. Or he will be kicking himself later.

 

[Prism11]

Also remember that the jdm 2jzgte comes with 280 hp stock, the usdm 2jzgte comes with 320 hp stock, and 1jzgte with 280 stock hp. So in closing the jzs are not only a better more efficient design, stock mhg, looks a lot better (just look at grimjacks sig), but you get 50-90 more hp. Plus if you decide to sell your car down the road you'll be able to sell it for more, since the 7m comes with a lot of baggage.

The only reason I can think of to stay 7m is if you don't have the funds for a swap. But since he said he is not gonna stay n/a and says he has the money, he might as well do it all the way. Or he will be kicking himself later.

Matches my point above, comparable engines. There is only a 50-90hp difference, simple bolt-ons can make that up on a 7M. Not worth the labor IMO.

It's cool Prism, don't let the JZ guys get you down. They couldn't keep the 7M because it has less of a tolerance for ignorant owners. I've seen it SO many times before, 99% of the problems for a 7m is the owner. It's the same way for a JZ series engine, they just have newer parts. The time will come when the JZ guys have a worse rep than the 7M because more people are switching to the JZ.

The JZ guys cant get me down, I'm to being joked on because of engine choices, I daily an Rx8, and you know how much shit the rotary guys get. But because of that, I'm used to a high maintenance standard.

 

[S.A. supra]

Lol .....only 50-90 hp difference. That's around a quarter to a third of the stock hp of the 7m. Plus the jz can handle 600+hp without breaking a sweat. The 7m would have to be fully built to handle that kind of power.

 

[Grandavi]

Jz vs 7m? Jz is newer and has a lot going for it all learned from a 7m

Keep that in mind. The 7m is an excellent engine choice but jz has more going for it (large discussion, done many times).

As I said I intended to do the jz swap, but other issues and timing (not money) stopped that plan. It's a LOT more work to do a swap properly (I have seen a lot if improper ones). Not everyone has as sexy of an engine bay as Rodel or grimjack. In the end its just an engine.

The only true failing of a properly built 7m is the inefficient head in my opinion. It has superior torque capabilities and can reach the same HP of any jz. That's up to the owner really. Face it, only a few will ever need 600+ Hp and what it costs to go above 400 Hp on both engines climbs a lot as your goals gets higher. (of course you can stroke a 2jz for about 10 grand)

Absolutely nothing wrong with staying 7m. It all depends on what your end goals are for the car.

 

[BryanDyer]

Matches my point above, comparable engines. There is only a 50-90hp difference, simple bolt-ons can make that up on a 7M. Not worth the labor IMO.



The JZ guys cant get me down, I'm to being joked on because of engine choices, I daily an Rx8, and you know how much shit the rotary guys get. But because of that, I'm used to a high maintenance standard.

man rotary a are awesome..yes high maintenance but I think they're a cool motor my neighbor used to be a mechanic for Mazda now he just rebuilds and sells..quite a few rx8s and 7

 

[IndigoMKII]

Also remember that the jdm 2jzgte comes with 280 hp stock, the usdm 2jzgte comes with 320 hp stock, and 1jzgte with 280 stock hp. So in closing the jzs are not only a better more efficient design, stock mhg, looks a lot better (just look at grimjacks sig), but you get 50-90 more hp. Plus if you decide to sell your car down the road you'll be able to sell it for more, since the 7m comes with a lot of baggage.

The only reason I can think of to stay 7m is if you don't have the funds for a swap. But since he said he is not gonna stay n/a and says he has the money, he might as well do it all the way. Or he will be kicking himself later.

For a JZ fan, your information is a tad bit lacking on the power figures there..

 

[IndigoMKII]

Lol .....only 50-90 hp difference. That's around a quarter to a third of the stock hp of the 7m. Plus the jz can handle 600+hp without breaking a sweat. The 7m would have to be fully built to handle that kind of power.

Please, stop this bullshit information. Do yourself a favor and look at a bone stock 7m and a 2j. USDM is 326 BHP with the 7m being around 232BHP. Just shim the waste gate a tad bit and guess what? You're getting close to that 300 BHP mark. Nice try though, it's people like you that make the 7M look so bad. It'll just make it that much sweeter when my 'shit' 7M 'shits' on your indestructible JZ.

 

[S.A. supra]

Please, stop this bullshit information. Do yourself a favor and look at a bone stock 7m and a 2j. USDM is 326 BHP with the 7m being around 232BHP. Just shim the waste gate a tad bit and guess what? You're getting close to that 300 BHP mark. Nice try though, it's people like you that make the 7M look so bad. It'll just make it that much sweeter when my 'shit' 7M 'shits' on your indestructible JZ.

Where is the misinformation? ??

7mgte stock 230 right? Stock hp on a usdm 2jzgte 320 right? If my math is correct that's a 90 hp stock difference.

7mgte 230. Jdm 2jzgte is 280 that's a stock hp difference of 50 hp. Right?

Same with the 1jzgte 280 stock hp. 50 hp difference.

Also there's nothing to get mad about here, calm down little buddy as I pat you on your head.

 

[Prism11]

I think we've kinda gone a little off topic here. Not to be the thread police or anything, I had my hand in here too, but its just becoming another pissing war and I would hate to have to read another one. The OP asked for advice. I wasn't nay-saying either motor as a choice, but gave an opinion based on the info in the first post

 

[Grandavi]

Op wants "the most reliable streetable engine" and has "crap for experience with these". Both the 7M and JZ are respectable streetable engines.

He has had "0 luck with the 7m due to the previous owner and my own neglect". We can't help with that.. either engine will die if you point a gun at it and shoot it.

So.. the OP is "trying right now to decide on which engine to go with". His goal is a 400 HP daily driver. A lot of people have a mistaken belief that this is easily achieved on both platforms. I think we would need to know about what the budget is for this type of a build. Easily attained providing you have $$. Because the OP stated he knows crap about these engines, I am guessing that he would need a shop to do the work. I have a shop do all my work and its not cheap by any means. You guys with the skill set can fab things that us people without skills have to pay dearly for. A warped flange can cost us 100-200 bucks for a shop to dick around with as compared to the 15 min to an hour it takes for a skilled "home-boy" to do himself. 400 rwhp reliably done by a shop isn't a cheap journey. As well.. just from personal experience... you can do 400 rwhp on the 550 injector/Lexus AFM upgrade on a 7M. Its doable, but you may have difficulties with fuel control (i did, but others have had great success). Not familiar with upgrading the 2jz so I will be silent there...

OP stated, "I however know nothing about 7ms except for if they have a bad oil pump, it eats rod bearings and their head gaskets go bad every so often if not taken good care of".
The above isn't true. The oil pump is fine and if you shim it it can be a bit better in a 7M (mine is shimmed). The rod bearings usually get eaten because of improper build or people driving with a bad headgasket due to contaminated oil. Every engine should be taken care of....

Because the car is currently a N/A 5 speed (W58), I would say.. don't swap anything into the car. Buy one already built.. forget about painting yours. You'll be waaaaaay farther ahead doing that. There are well built MK3's with over 30,000.00 into them out there that you can pick up for under 10,000.00. They have already done all the headache stuff and you already have a good picture in your head of the flaws. Just get the engine properly tested prior to purchasing. The first thing to do is the very cheap Co2 test at the rad. The rest is compression/leakdown test. Tons of advice about what to look for.. but that's the way you should go unless your car is in very very nice condition.

Then I would go with a 2jz swap simply because your starting with a N/A MK3. Get a front clip.. and have at 'er. My opinion (without doing the grandstanding.. because you already know my 7M > all)

 

[Trent]

you don't want to do 400 rwhp on the 550 injector/Lexus AFM upgrade on a 7M. Its doable, but not really proper. Not familiar with upgrading the 2jz so I will be silent there...

I agree with absolutely everything you said except for that one line right there. Your personal experience w/ the Lex/550 setup may not have been a good one, but why do you think it's not proper? I built my last 88 MK3 in 2002-2004 and made 440rwhp with the LexAFM/550 combo w/ the Apex'i AFC (the original one) daily drove it for 3 years, drove it to Vegas and back and won the dyno and Stereo competition there for the MK3 class, and beat the living hell out of that car repeatedly.

I also helped others build many others in that timeframe with the same combo, so I'm not sure where the "it's not proper" comes into play. I am in the final stages of building my current car with roughly the same power goals and the only difference this time is I have the AFC Neo. All the other components are virtually the same including the air and fuel systems. The Lex/550 combo has proven to be a great setup for countless people so I'm a little confused on that part.

 

[Grandavi]

Your correct, that is from my experience. And my statement is not fully correct, I am thinking more about fuel control, fuel cut and going too rich in the upper end. With just the Lexus AFM and 550s I found it very difficult not to go too rich on the 4500+ Rpm side ( no other mod other than an aeromotive AFPR). Possibly because I have the mkiv denso fuel pump and it was over feeding?)

My statement shouldn't have been a blanket statement like that. I edited it, hopefully that's more correct. It gets difficult advising without mixing personal experience that can really muddy the waters and mislead.

 

[Trent]

Your correct, that is from my experience. And my statement is not fully correct, I am thinking more about fuel control, fuel cut and going too rich in the upper end. With just the Lexus AFM and 550s I found it very difficult not to go too rich on the 4500+ Rpm side ( no other mod other than an aeromotive AFPR). Possibly because I have the mkiv denso fuel pump and it was over feeding?)

My statement shouldn't have been a blanket statement like that. I edited it, hopefully that's more correct. It gets difficult advising without mixing personal experience that can really muddy the waters and mislead.

No problem and more than anything was just confusion on my part being that I was not involved with these cars basically at all from 2004 to just early last year. Back in the days when I worked at MVP, PHR, and SupraSport (1999-2004), this upgrade was the most common and sought after option so I wasn't sure if something had changed or if I just wasn't aware anymore

Property built and tuned 7M always gets my vote

 

[IndigoMKII]

Where is the misinformation? ??

7mgte stock 230 right? Stock hp on a usdm 2jzgte 320 right? If my math is correct that's a 90 hp stock difference.

7mgte 230. Jdm 2jzgte is 280 that's a stock hp difference of 50 hp. Right?

Same with the 1jzgte 280 stock hp. 50 hp difference.

Also there's nothing to get mad about here, calm down little buddy as I pat you on your head.

Sorry to respond in such a way but I find it annoying when everyone faults the 7M for the owners mistakes. ANY engine will let loose if abused and not maintained. The JZ series was designed to fix the faults that the M series engines head, such as the head design.

Any 7M will stand side by side with any 1j/2j. It's a matter of money in the end.

 

[Grandavi]

Sorry to respond in such a way but I find it annoying when everyone faults the 7M for the owners mistakes. ANY engine will let loose if abused and not maintained. The JZ series was designed to fix the faults that the M series engines head, such as the head design.

Any 7M will stand side by side with any 1j/2j. It's a matter of money in the end.

:werd:

 

[gsxr141]

if it were me, i would stay with a 7m. the thought of having a 2jz is great, BUT by the time you pay for the swap, wiring, and any other headaches it will cost a lot more than building a proper 7m. don't forget that the 2jz you get will have the stock twins on it too. you're looking at a shit ton of money to go with a single turbo setup. i know it's apples to oranges, but i think in the long run it will be cheaper to build a great 7m than swap in a stock 2jz.
as far as the 1j goes, why would you want to go with a smaller engine? also with the sock twins on it.

 

[Grandavi]

Also.. just as an example of what I was saying about forgetting about doing a swap and just buying a car... here is a sample of what I mean...

http://www.supramania.com/forums/sh...rrior-Build)&p=1937534&viewfull=1#post1937534

Not saying to buy that car, but that's just one very quick example of how you can get a MK3 for between 8000-15,000.00 (depending on how well built you want it) and save yourself a TON of money...

Just go over the spec list on the car I linked and figure out parts costs... then figure out time costs... this car (parts and labor) would be well over double the asking price to build. (Cheaper if you are doing the work, but still a lot of time involved).

Your sometimes far better off starting with a car already done...there are a lot of them out there if you look. ...just saying.

If I were to enter the Supra game without a car now (knowing all I know...) this is the path I would take... especially if I owned a NA MK3

 

[BryanDyer]

Matches my point above, comparable engines. There is only a 50-90hp difference, simple bolt-ons can make that up on a 7M. Not worth the labor IMO.



The JZ guys cant get me down, I'm to being joked on because of engine choices, I daily an Rx8, and you know how much shit the rotary guys get. But because of that, I'm used to a high maintenance standard.

if it were me, i would stay with a 7m. the thought of having a 2jz is great, BUT by the time you pay for the swap, wiring, and any other headaches it will cost a lot more than building a proper 7m. don't forget that the 2jz you get will have the stock twins on it too. you're looking at a shit ton of money to go with a single turbo setup. i know it's apples to oranges, but i think in the long run it will be cheaper to build a great 7m than swap in a stock 2jz.
as far as the 1j goes, why would you want to go with a smaller engine? also with the sock twins on it.

exactly what I said man! why get a smaller engine all stock and slower with less torque when for the same money you can build a fast reliable 7m that's really solid even though it's more modern doesnt mean it's better like for example a Chevy 350 was made way back in the day and is still used to this day for many different applications wether it's track to street or drag racing
stick with the 7m and make yourself proud you built a solid and reliable one instead of going on the assumption it's not a good motor because it isn't "newer" and all the other owners who have a lot of problems with the 7m don't know how to take care it