What should we do about the war in Iraq Poll

[Adjuster]

So, let's finnish this. (I posted so I would not run into a charater limit.)

The Muslems are riled up by the Mullahs, the students are confused and follow the communists, and the riots start all over Iran.

The shaw leaves, the country falls, and the Shite's take over. (BTW, the Russian advisors that were hoping it would become a communist state? They were all executed along with any students who did not immediately profess to be good little Islamic fundalmentalitsts... So much for freedom.)

Iran takes hostages at our embasy, and proceeds to make hay with the Islamic world, showing off how powerfull they are to poke a stick in the eye of America, and we did nothing. (Thank you again President Peanut. You truely are a flaming liberal piece of shit.)

Iran and Iraq have a 12 year war where about 6 million people die.
Yep, Jimmy you deserve a Nobel prize allright, for selling the most TNT! (Invented by Mr. Nobel don't you know..)

We jump into bed with Iraq who we know is a despot, but he's an enemy of Iran, and we ignore that he's "SoDamnInsane" and gasses his own county when they try and fight back.

Fast forward to 1990, Iraq has come to some sort of peace with Iran, neither side really wins anything, but they both learned much about war, so Soddam invades Kuwait, and we get involved a few days later. (I was in Saudi Arabia at that time, and I was in Iran when the Shaw fell, and left just before the Hostages were taken..) In 91 we proceed to kick the living shit out of Iraq, and the world sits back and is amazed. Seriously the rest of the world was ready to watch us die, and in large numbers, but the Russian tactics did not work, the US military was better trained and we were unstoppable.

Here is where we screwed up. We let the media have access to much of the war. It was great PR. We were winning, and they failed to notice that liberals everywhere were horrified at the distruction of life on live TV. (The rest of the world was either cheering, or revising their attitudes towards fighting with America.)
We allowed live coverage of the roads out of Kuwait, and in particular, the road to Basra, Iraq. It was a killing field not very different than others in history, but it was different in that the world wide media covered the slaughter in living color. The reality of war was out there for everyone to see, and Bush Sr. recoiled at it, and lost his stomach to fight further.

Suddenly, at the point where we could have liberated Iraq, we stopped, negotiated peace, and let them fly helicoptors so they could put down any rebellion..(Which Iraq did, especially in the South where they brutally killed anyone who opposed them and supported America.) We told them to stand up and fight and we would support them, but we did not. We walked away, and left them to die. (And the rest of the world, especially the Arab/Islamic world watched this very closely.)

So, now you ask if we should leave, should set time tables, and cut and run. Do you think we can just leave those that have staked a claim of freedom in Iraq? They are fighting and dying for it every day, but the media only reports that "50 were killed today in ethnic fighting" But they fail to see it's radical Islam v/s Freedom. We are in the thick of it, and I'm proud to see the USA on the side of freedom. (Finally.)

If your not proud to be on the side of freedom, your a fucking pussy, and you don't deserve to live in in this great country in my book. Your as worthless as militant Islam. (I don't know of any Islam that is not militant, so pretty much I think anyone who is muslem and supports terrorism, or Anti American ideas is the enemy. Plain and simple.)

Let's look at this.
Islam is peacefull? BULLSHIT. That's like saying Catholics are peacefull. (Yep, look at the Crusades, and many other wars, and you find all religions have been used to foster hate and war.)

I don't care what you belive, if your against us, your the enemy, and we should either convert you to someone that likes us, or kill you. Simple as it get's. Trust me, they feel the same way, and they are willing to act on it. "Terrorism" is this feeling of hate being used to scare us into going home, leaving them alone, and letting them build up weapons and the ability to strike at us, the "great satan" with nukes, and bio weapons, and who knows all. They are not going to stop people. They are committed, and they are resolute.

We either kill them, convert them or we die or are converted by them.

Take your pick, those are your options. (History 101. Islam has converted many by the sword over the past centuries. They are proud of it, and still think it's a viable option. Just ask them, or do some research on your own.)

 

[Joel W.]

By far, this has the be your worst post Joel.

Talk about poking a bee hive with a stick man. It's not even funny.

Your right, It is not even funny...I figured it would not go over well with everyone. That does not make it wrong, but that is how I read the 9/11 report.

Edit: I was for the war when I believed we were there for WMD's, Terror, and UBL and Iraqi freedoms... All of that was fabricated just so we could get in control of their oil. Now your referring to blind patriatism and I do not subscribe to that at all... Re read post #1 Don't you feel lied to by your administration that you like so much? I am pissed off.. I am also not against the war on terror you goof..

Have you even read it yet? I cut and paisted some parts of it into a word doc. because it is quite long.. Here are the damaging parts that I see when I read it.. Plus I dug around a bit more apart from that report into just who we are dealing with and why..

Here is by far the most damaging part imo..

At the September 17 NSC meeting, there was some further discussion of “phase two” of the war on terrorism.71 President Bush ordered the Defense Department to be ready to deal with Iraq if Baghdad acted against U.S. interests, with plans to include possibly occupying Iraqi oil fields

Notice how Bush makes no mention of WMD's or UBL or Iraqi freedom or more attacks.. He is referring to securing the oil fields in Iraq first and foremost. Just days after the attack...

President George W. Bush has since admitted that "much of the intelligence turned out to be wrong"

The .doc is a microsoft word document.. Let me know if you need something else to be able to read it..

 

[Adjuster]

What part of global war on terrorism (Islam) don't you get?

I don't care where they are, we should kill them.

Iraq.
Afganistan.
Iran.
North Africa.
Middle East.
East Asia.

Anywhere they live, we would be better off with them dead. (The whole world that is.)

Either dead, or converted to a non western hating mindset...(IE, They need to be dead since they have been taught to hate everything Western since before they could walk.)

I don't care about that report. It means nothing to me after years of terrorism, and strikes like 911.

Chew on that Joel.

 

[Adjuster]

You know, your a smart guy Joel.

Do some reading on why and how Rome fell.
Or how any empire dried up and died, or was consumed by it's enemies.

The USA is next if we are not careful. It many not happen in our life times, but I have kid's I don't want to see wearing chador's over their heads, and living in lands where women have no freedom, religion rules your life, and the outlook is pretty dang bleak unless you happen to be a Imam, or part of the rulling class.

This land we live in is truely the land of the free.

Problem is, a majority of this country has forgotten that "Freedom is not free."

 

[Kai]

Okay - advocating death to all muslims is wrong. Theres a difference between terrorists who blow up innocent people, and the everyday muslim, who runs a shop, sends his kids to school and carries on with life as usual. Most in the middle east are so ingrained with revering the religious leaders that they believe everything they say. It's called indoctrination. It happens all over the world in in many other religions, just look at Christian fundamentalists, televangelists (buy gods love for $9.99 and all that bollocks) and people like Fred Phelps - who just hates everyone.

Everyone interprets religion in a different way, and there are plenty of people that are willing to use their twisted interpretation of religion as a tool to serve their own ends. Religion in and of itself cannot harm anyone. It's the followers of said religion or interpretation that do the damage.

Now, i was in London on 7/7 and my brother would have ended up on that number 30 bus had he not been late for work, so i'm well aware of the threat posed by Islamic fundamentalists.

Anyway, onto the main topic.

I may not be american, but i do think that bush and blair were wrong to go into Iraq UNDER FALSE PRETENCES. Saddam was an asshole who deserved to go, but to use the auspices of Weapons of Mass Destruction as a flimsy ass cover, especially since the only 'evidence' they could come up with was 'aluminium tubes' or some such crap, was inexcusable. Had we left a few weeks after Baghdad fell, we probably wouldn't be in this mess now.

Our british boys suffer the same as you guys, obviously you have more people there, so you bear the brunt of it in terms of numbers, but the targeting is indescriminate.

Unfortunately, WE the 'coalition of the willing' went into this and it's now OUR responsibility to clear it up, we canot just wash our hands of it and leave everyone else to pick up the pieces. However, a lot of the death and fighting that still goes on is for the sole reason that after so many years, we're STILL THERE. We haven't left. :3d_frown:

*If* we were to start scaling operations back, handing over control to the government there for military operations and started bringing our boys back home, i bet you any amount of money, the fighting would decrease and the internal power struggle between the various sects would begin.

As a side note, the US (or the UK for that matter) is NOT the 'land of the free' as you might believe it to be. Many people are starting to notice the presence of an ever more paranoid government intruding on their day lives. Hell, i notice it in england to, but we didnt have Ben Franklin to quote. He said 'Those who would sacrifice freedom for temporary security deserve neither.'

I think he was right.

 

[Joel W.]

You know, your a smart guy Joel.

Do some reading on why and how Rome fell.
Or how any empire dried up and died, or was consumed by it's enemies.

I can not believe your last post..<shakes head>
Your the one who needs to do some reading. Choose to ignore it like every thing else...No big suprise here..

The Romans fell, because of "standing armies" or in other words continual war in far away land, They spread them selves too thin to maintain control over large areas of land while over taxing their own people to the point they can not survive and they had no choice but to revolt or remain slaves to their government....

(Wiki) Romans had no budgetary system. The Empire relied on booty from conquered territories (this source of revenue ending, of course, with the end of Roman territorial expansion) or on a pattern of tax collection that drove small-scale farmers into destitution (and onto a dole that required even more exactions upon those who could not escape taxation), or into dependency upon a landed élite exempt from taxation
Sound familiar yet? Root of all evil thread..

Meanwhile the costs of military defense and the pomp of Emperors continued. Financial needs continued to increase, but the means of meeting them steadily eroded. In a somewhat similar strain...

No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

I think we need to get the UN in there like we should have had from the start, to replace us.....

The USA is next if we are not careful

No shit sherlock, WTF do you think I am taking about here?? Our soldeirs are overseas, our borders are open, and we are just pissing off 25% of the worlds population (mostly 18 year old males) of the world, that already dislike us with a passion and you want to stay because we fucked up once, we might as well make it our last stand?? Your the dumbest smart person I have ever argued with... Put your book down and turn on ABC or BBC or CBS news or something and learn to play chess...

 

[Adjuster]

I belive rome fell due to it's leadership losing sight of what was important.

The giving away of money to the poor, and letting them get more was also a problem.

Combine that with the fact that the military became shunned by the general populace who felt they were not needed, and an expense they could not afford left the Romans open to their enimies who took advantage of the weakness and overran them.

I see many things in common with the USA today.

We are more worried about being PC than being safe.
We are giveing away wealth to those that have not earned it.
Our solders fight far away while the people here at home condem them, second guess them and ultimately don't support them. (All while they are "SAYING" I support you, but don't kill, don't maim, and surely don't embarass your foes, it's not nice..")

Your idea that no nation could preserve it's freedom in the midst of continual warfare? What continual warfare are we in? All of our other world wars have been longer than this, and because there is no clear cut army to fight, no single land to focus on, this war on terrorism and Islamic funamentalism is not going to be a short one by any means.

The comments about not making this a war on Islam? Laughable. The Islamic leaders and people have made themselves the very target of our response.
1) They claim to be peacefull, yet issue Fatwa's and other edicts to kill the infidels. (That would be us you know.)
2) They turn a blind eye to the outragous statements and actions of rouge states like Iran. (And ignore that Islam rules that country.)
3) They foster and look up to governments like the Taliban who used "Islamic law" and tradition to rule over the people. No freedoms, no choices, just do as we say, and you live. Do anything else, and your shot on a soccer field in the head with an AK47. (Tell me Islam is peacefull when Islam is the Taliban.)
4) When interviewed, they don't have any problem saying things like "We have the right to oppose occupying armies.." Then they say that groups like Hamas, PLO and all the other Islamic terrorist organizations are just, and have Allah's blessing.

Get real, open your eyes, and stop listening to the PC bullshit the liberal media crams down your eyeballs and ears every day. Reality is we are only just getting going. If we stop now, and pull back and lick our wounds, and play nice, negotiate some, and let the enemy build and improve on it's ability to wage war, our freedom will shortly become very expensive to own indeed.

If you can't see the similar problems of a corrupt rome and our own United States of America Joel, you need to look closer. Your own comments about the "military defense" being too costly smacks of romans saying they would rather spend the money at home where it's needed. (Oh, wait, that sounds like the USA today... Dang we are close to becoming another great footnote in a history book somewhere.)

United States of America:
1776-2026
Started by British colonist who were tired of taxation without repsenetation, broke from England with much bloodshed, then had a civil war over slavery and power, fought in a few other wars, notably WW1 and WW2, achived great things, were capable of so much more, but when push came to shove, they failed to recognize that Allah had a plan for them, and they became just another Caliphiate in the New Ottoman Empire... (Added the last part for your benefit there PC folks, not calling it the Islamic Empire...)

 

[Kai]

I'm sorry - i dont listen to 'liberal' or 'conservative' media, i listen to impartial news and make my own judgements. You seem not to have listened to my points in any way, shape or form, in short, trying to foist your opinions others rather than listening to an opposing viewpoint.

As i have already stated, Islamic Fundamentalists do NOT follow islam, they merely use a corrupted interpretation of it for their own means.

By your reckoning, christian's are equally evil and should be wiped out. What about Catholics? Jews? Hindu's? How about we go wipe them out too? With the information you've provided, because some Muslims kill people, Catholics must bugger small boys and Christians blow up abortion clinics - people of ALL religions commit murder, NOT just Muslims.

For you to blindly throw out 'kill all the muslims cause they're bad' kind of crap is both offensive and stupid.

 

[Joel W.]

I belive rome fell due to it's leadership losing sight of what was important.

I agree...

The giving away of money to the poor, and letting them get more was also a problem.

How do you think they got that poor? Being lazy welfair bums? (war)

Combine that with the fact that the military became shunned by the general populace who felt they were not needed, and an expense they could not afford left the Romans open to their enimies who took advantage of the weakness and overran them.

That is what our military is doing now, Who pays for all that debt? They are trying to attack us again because we are not secured at home...... Did you see that in the papers lately???

I see many things in common with the USA today.

We are more worried about being PC than being safe.
We are giveing away wealth to those that have not earned it.
Our solders fight far away while the people here at home condem them, second guess them and ultimately don't support them. (All while they are "SAYING" I support you, but don't kill, don't maim, and surely don't embarass your foes, it's not nice..")

Screw being PC...Do you not read what I say at all?? Your amazing..:icon_mad:

Your idea that no nation could preserve it's freedom in the midst of continual warfare? What continual warfare are we in? All of our other world wars have been longer than this, and because there is no clear cut army to fight, no single land to focus on, this war on terrorism and Islamic funamentalism is not going to be a short one by any means.

It is NOT my Idea, it is the "Father of our Constitution", It was written along time ago by a man who help start all this... He knew what he was talking about...You just do not get it..:1zhelp: War never cost 74 million dollars a day before..

Get real, open your eyes, and stop listening to the PC bullshit the liberal media crams down your eyeballs and ears every day. Reality is we are only just getting going. If we stop now, and pull back and lick our wounds, and play nice, negotiate some, and let the enemy build and improve on it's ability to wage war, our freedom will shortly become very expensive to own indeed.

I am awake...I am not soft about killing those that are our enimies, But we can not do it there, without making more and more everywhere else.. THAT IS MY POINT!!!!!

If you can't see the similar problems of a corrupt rome and our own United States of America Joel, you need to look closer. Your own comments about the "military defense" being too costly smacks of romans saying they would rather spend the money at home where it's needed. (Oh, wait, that sounds like the USA today... Dang we are close to becoming another great footnote in a history book somewhere.)

I see the exact similar problem with us as Rome, what the hell do you think I started this thread for?

What do you suggest?? Go attack all those other places on your "hit list" with boots on the ground or air strikes and battleships? Maybe just nuke the entire middle east and the other places??

 

[Kai]

The US fighting in WW1? Oh i'm sorry but the US contribution to WW1 in terms of manpower was virtually bugger all, and your boys got slaughtered.

WW2 is a whole new kettle of fish that would need a whole thread on its own to go into.

Joel - don't forget that some people just can't be told whats right in front of them

 

[Adjuster]

Last time I checked, the Christians of our day are not supporting armies of Crusaders launching rockets into Israel, blowing up IED's in Baghdad or creating governments that harbor and help terrorist to fly civillian planes into buildings full of civillian office workers, not to mention military office buildings of "the great satan" (Islamic words, not my own there Kai.)

When the Twin towers fell, they passed out candy and danced in the streets in glee. They were all Islamic, and they have all learned to hate us by being taught to hate us in the mosques.

Why is it when your peace loving Islamic Muslims are interviewed, they don't come out and say "We do not support Hamas. We do not support the Taliban. We hate terrorists, and we will help you find them, and rid the world of them.....

Ooops, your Mullah's, Mutawah's and Imam's are all silent when it comes to condeming terrorism. They hem and ha, and think and then say things like "we belive it's their right to oppose occupying armies..." Says so right in the Koran... blah blah blah... we don't belive in turning the other cheek.. And things like that.

I agree that Christians like your buddies in Ireland who for years blew up London and other places were all terrorists, and not to be trusted.

Conversion by the sword is not a Islamic only deal. That is for sure, but the term was coined by them for sure.

Do I think all Muslims are horrible, and should be wiped from the face of the earth NO WAY. There are good people everywhere, but when Muslims all over the world stand back and do nothing when we are attacked? I'm not going to worry about them when I'm destroying their buddies, that's for sure.

Problem #1 in Iraq is that we have been too nice.

When we are attacked there, we need to go in a level entire areas.

Do you know why the Germans came around so well after WWII? Was it because they were tired of Hitler and his bunch? Was it because they suddenly liked America and her allies?

It was because the bombing of their cities had pretty much wiped out everything, and people were tired of dying. We have never taken our foes to that point since WWII, and that's why we keep ending up with places like Korea, Viet Nam and now "Islamic" Terrorists all over the world.

Tough to deal with? Yes.
Easy to do? No.
Needed to resolve this? Absolutely.

 

[Joel W.]

Joel - don't forget that some people just can't be told whats right in front of them

Ya, well, I don't like quitting, :evil2: He explained it perfectly, he just does not realize the mistake they made....

 

[Kai]

Actually, 'my' Islamic community was horrified at 9/11 and 7/7 and publicly spoke out about how unacceptable and horrific it was.

The ones that handed out sweets and cheered were the Palestinians and Iranians, who have been indoctrinated into believing that America IS evil by religious and civilian leaders alike.

When you're outside of the US like I am for example, i find it hard to come up with reasons for actually liking the country as a whole. I have friends there, and i get on with the people but your government just sucks.

The IRA has been blowing the shit out of London for years and years and years. They're one of the reasons why there are no public waste bins anywhere in the country. However, we didn't let it affect our daily lives, we didn't go 'right! thats it!' and nuke ireland. Which is much along the level of thinking you're currently trying to promote.

If you think you're being too nice in Iraq - you're waaaaaay off the mark there. Your soldiers treat people like shit - even regular civvies. They don't respect anyone, they piss people off and they think they own the place. One primary reason why you see in the british controlled areas that people are happy enough for them to be there - because we train our soldiers to have a degree of respectable behaviour.

With WW2, Germany was from the outset, mostly disinterested in the Nazi party as an ideal, but were pretty much forced by the goon squad there to accept it, or get shot in the head. Much like Communist Russia. They didn't *suddenly* like the US either - thank the Marshall plan for the US-centric influence.

Also, the US flattened most of Vietnam with high level ordinance, napalm and you STILL lost. Somehow i doubt that flattening Iraq would achieve a different kind of victory, if anything, you're going to end up with Vietnam Mk2, and you'll end up staying there for another 5 years before pulling out with your tail between your legs, and the entire region devastated, but this time dragging the rest of us along with you.

 

[Adjuster]

The reality is, even after we have been attacked, bombed, flow into and a multitude of other things, we as a nation have not been wounded enough to commit to the kind of war it will take to end this conflict.

The average American has not been hurt enough to care. (And those that have, are in the minority in my opinion.)

We are offended, but offended is not the same as hurt.

I don't know what it will take, and I'm almost afraid to find out, but when it happens, I can say it will be clearly an act of war. Islam v/s the USA. (Call it whatever you like, but that is where we are headed.) Iran giving a nuke to terrorist who detonate it in the USA would be one very possible outcome.

I think when that happens. (notice I did not say if.) The world will see a war like none we have fought before. The use of tatical and theater wide nukes will be used. Chemical and biological weapons will come out, and the gloves will come off.

I don't wish it on anyone, but I also don't plan on reading the Koran, and praying 5 times a day either.

Will hiding at home delay the process? I doubt it. I say go for it now while we have serious advantages over our enemies still.

Oh, and Kai, your comments about WW1 and WWII are interesting considering your living in a land that is free due to quite a bit of spilled American blood. Be it right or wrong, your opinions can be aired because of their loss of life for your freedom of expression.
Try that in a state like the Taliban and you would not be able to say what you think, only what the Imam's tell you that you should think.

Kind of sounds like the Dark ages in the Catholic church right? I'm not for them either. I think any kind of oppression from religion is a bad idea. Islam or anything else. Thing of it is, I don't have legions of catholic terrorists blowing up my countrymen all over the world right? If I did, I'd be opposed to them, and their friends too.

 

[Joel W.]

Kai: You nailed it...:icon_bigg

Adjuster, Read the paper, It is more reliable because it is in print..We are taking out the terrorists all the time, It is a global effort as everyone hates a terrorist!

 

[Adjuster]

So, Kai, if your country is opposed to terrorism, why don't they supply troops to help Iraq develop into a country that does not support terrorism?

They would be great in that vocation. They know the customs, they could show our guys how to be polite too. Who knows, it might be a great thing for everyone.

We learn how to be polite to those that would like to kill us.
You learn that the USA is not terrible, and our government is not evil. (Sucks is the word you used.)

Either way, Iraq wins, and we avoid the whole thermonucular war with Iran deal.

I have many great memories of Iran as a kid, and Saudi as a young man. There are great people everywhere, or at least there were. Hate being preached to little children is not a good idea, and it's the worst at the Wahabi mosques in Saudi. (Where many of the terrorists have come from.) The problem is your islamic friends are using your religion to gain power by use of terrorism. And that will ultimately get anyone who's clearly not opposed to terrorism killed one of these days.

 

[Adjuster]

Yep, Joel I noted awhile back that China has a serious female problem.

IE: They have about 125,000,000 men more than women... Ooops, seems the social planning did not work, too many of the little girls were terminated, and now China has too few women.

A huge problem when you consider that most of us really work hard, and act nice because of our families... (Seriously, why would you work so hard if not for your kids?) There will be 125million men in China with no kids, no families and no responsibility in the next 20 years. What do you think China is going to do with all of them? It will be interesting for sure.

 

[Adjuster]

So, here is a thought.

What to do about the war in Iraq?

Let's get countries like Kai's involved to help keep the peace, train Iraq's new army, and government and foster peacefull Islam while they are at it.

Kai? Any takers on your part? (Or do you not consider it your problem?)

 

[Kai]

Ohhh dont even start the World War 2 crap - you joined WW2 in more than 2 years AFTER war had been declared, AFTER the battle of britain in which we fought off the germans with what little resources we had in terms of both manpower and aircraft.

The US sat on the sidelines, refusing to get involved until Pearl Harbour and only then when you realised that after Hitler had conquered Europe, he'd be coming after YOU next. Even WITH the support of the US in 1944, with the advent of the Normandy Beach Landings, it wouldn't have made any difference had Hitler not been so greedy and decided to go for Russia as well, stretching his forces thin on the ground. Also, it's not all as it's been portrayed in the Movies with regards to the normandy beach landings. Germany was defeated with more than just American assistance. We had Canada and Australia on our side too AND the French Resistance, without whom we wouldn't have had much in the way of intelligence.

We we're the first nation to set foot inside occupied France, with our Airborne boys capturing the Pegasus Bridge a few hours before the main landings took place. Also, by the end of the day we had offloaded more men and vehicles than you.

Anyway, thats off topic.

As for Nuclear, Biological and Chemical weapons - they're never going to be used, as if anyone would be stupid enough to fuck this planet up even more just to prove a point. If you did that, imagine what it would say 50 years later

'Well we won the war, but there were only 210,000 survivors, we're all mutated, theres no more ozone layer, the earth is irradiated and we cant grow crops. Oops.'

 

[Kai]

Actually, the british people said a great big 'NO' when Teflon Tone wanted to go ahead and move into Iraq. He ignored them because he could. National Security was at stake. Now we know the bullshit, we're pulling troops out month by month. We've done our part, we've helped you this far, now its your fucking problem. We're not washing our hands of this ordeal by any means, we're staying around in a minimal force capacity to assist with rebuilding efforts - but hunting down extremists and carrying on the death dealing is now solely on your shoulders.