Water/Meth and High boost coming. Time for tuning help/suggestions/experience.

[CajunKenny]

My car with 92 octane at 16 psi had evidence of knock shown by the timing data. How much knock...I don't know. What I found is that the ECU really starts adjusting timing above 16 psi. Again, this is how my car reacts. The next guy's may react differently...

Last I heard, race gas over the pond was around $12.00 a gallon. I think, this drives those aussies to experiment a little more than we do.

Without a doubt, controlling knock with water is well proven. Though I'm not really utilizing it yet, I prefer the octane boost offered by the meth.

 

[grimreaper]

wow. i just read this whole thread and I am definitely thinking about running a water/meth kit down the line. More because here in california, for the most part we're restricted to 91 octane fuel and I would like to run like 20psi daily. Right now, I'm scared to run more than 16psi unless i go to the track and throw in a few gallons of 100 octane. I kinda like IJ's setup, seems a bit more "accurate and safe". Maybe its a dumb question, but do you use regular fuel injectors to inject the water/meth?

if you plan on doing direct intake manifold injection do your homework. I've read there are a few more things to consider (like vac on the meth nozzle etc..).


I have seen similar timing readings as ken, 15-16 psi should be the limit on pump imho. I always tuned for a tick below FC so I would be receiving the least amount of timing possible.

Timing control has always worked for me. I never got into pulling timing except during trial runs though, -10 degrees in the mid range makes for one weak ass 7mgte! I plan to use it more this go round as the built motor has a bump in compression and I will be hitting the dyno for a final tune.

 

[suprastroker88]

so pretty much, you only need water/meth if you're trying to run more boost than recommended on a certain octane gas? sorry ima noob when it comes to this additive type stuff lol. im still trying to figure it out

 

[Nick M]

Mid 400's is over 500 bhp as you know. Seems like you are at the limit on 550's. Maybe a bigger injector will solve that problem. I can't see how you have a knock problem where others didn't. I view the water and meth as a band aid, unless the car is a trailered drag racer. *following thread*

 

[CajunKenny]

Without a doubt, water/meth is commonly used as a band-aid. That's risky business in my opinion. Thus far, I've basically only used it to control knock. I will push boost up to 20 psi and rely on the meth for that; but, only until I get my AEM installed.

I agree that I'm running a little short on injector. Honestly, I never thought I'd be this far in the realm of power. Some of the car parts that I have just sort of fell in my lap. Had I known...I would've invested in bigger injectors. A while back, I did some injector calculations and was in a comfortable range. Now, not so much... I'm still not sure that too small of injectors is entirely the problem. 92 Octane only offers so much.

I can't say that I have a knock problem or not. I am drawing conclusions from the stock timing data. Until I get her to the dyno, that's all I have to go on. Other platforms like the DSM's have counts of knock available to them. We don't have that so when I see the ECU adjusting timing, I can only conclude that the adjustments are related to knock.

It would be nice to know how much of a swing is somewhat acceptable. Example: If the ECU swings timing +/-2* then that could be engine noise in the frequency range of knock; but, if the ECU swings timing +/-5* then that is likely knock. I don't thing anyone has this type of information.

Anyone wanna be a guinea pig for this data?

Good points Nick. Thanks.

 

[IBoughtASupra]

3P would be the best knowledgable person I know about anything related to the 7M ECU. Shoot him a PM.

Kenny, get that forged motor together and valvetrain as well, drop it in, turn up the boost and fuel setup and install that AEM you got for a killer deal! Hurry up!

 

[suprahero]

I don't understand the "water and meth is a band aid" statement.

I drive my car @ 640rwhp and have been doing it for the last two years without one problem to the engine. I'm planning on going to the dyno in a few weeks and turning the boost up and hopefully make closer to 700rwhp with 93 octane and meth. There's no way I could do this without running race gas or the methanol injection. It may be a bit dangerous to use, but there's a lot of things that COULD go wrong with any setup. I think the benefits outweigh the risks.

There's a few people on Supraforums that are making over 800rwhp with pump gas and methanol.

 

[grimreaper]

did the best I could to pin point the peak tq point on the maps 3P posted... we should be seeing 25-30* at full tilt... I heard that toyotas work around for a mid range turbo was gobs of timing up top, didnt think it was such a big gob.

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?73379-3P-s-TCCS-Disassembly-Analysis/page40&highlight=timing

 

[grimreaper]

I'll see if 3p can get us an excel style chart.

 

[CajunKenny]

I don't understand the "water and meth is a band aid" statement.

I drive my car @ 640rwhp and have been doing it for the last two years without one problem to the engine. I'm planning on going to the dyno in a few weeks and turning the boost up and hopefully make closer to 700rwhp with 93 octane and meth. There's no way I could do this without running race gas or the methanol injection. It may be a bit dangerous to use, but there's a lot of things that COULD go wrong with any setup. I think the benefits outweigh the risks.

There's a few people on Supraforums that are making over 800rwhp with pump gas and methanol.

My thought on the "band aid" statement is that it applies when meth is used in a large fashion. Meaning, someone is injecting 1000cc of water/meth with stock injectors. That's kind of an obsurd example; but, when it's used as a crutch is when it becomes a band aid.

Great numbers and a great experience to go with it! What are your fuel system details?

we should be seeing 25-30* at full tilt...

AHHHHHHHH.....BOOM!!!!! :aigo:

 

[IBoughtASupra]

"Dom: Only Pussies Run Meth"




Got to like the Fast and Furious quotes.

 

[suprahero]

My fuel setup is two walbro 255's, 850cc injectors, Snow's performance progressive kit. It starts coming on at 11psi, and is fully on @ 18psi. I have one nozzle spraying about seven or eight inches from the tb. It is tuned with the Stinger EMS.

 

[Nick M]

I don't understand the "water and meth is a band aid" statement.

You should not be approaching detonation, even on pump gas. Get a bigger engine or bigger injectors.

 

[grimreaper]

quantity of fuel is not the issue for us stock ecu guys, quality is. Same goes for guys like suprahero.. they are just in a different envelope all together with the standalone.

For octane only when you need it, its hard to beat meth injection. I would be willing to bet that 98% of the time the motor is on you dont need the octane thats in race gas. Ive seen some crazy corvette installs with 300 shots of nitrous that used a seperate fuel tank to dump race gas in only when the nitrous was flowing. Never saw the inovice though..

 

[MRSUPRA]

I agree that Methonal is NOT a bandaide. It can not only be used to raise boost (and timing), but it can be used for safety since there can be knock even at fairly low boost if it's hot enough. I've used plenty of race gas for dyno pulls and the drag strip. It gets real old filling and draining the tank with $16 dollar per gallon gas. I'm about to order the Devils Own progressive methonal kit. I think it's safe as long as you stay conservative-not try to run 25+psi.

Keep us updated on what the ECU does with the timing. Does anyone have a plot of the stock ECU's timing curve at a certain boost?

 

[Nick M]

You need race gas or meth/water because the cylinder pressure is too high. Get a bigger engine.

 

[suprahero]

You need race gas or meth/water because the cylinder pressure is too high. Get a bigger engine.

What engine do you recommend for a 1991 Toyota supra?

 

[IBoughtASupra]

Jay....a 3.4L Billet Crank, CP Pistons, Carrillo Rods With ARP Hardware, Billet Main Caps And Girdle 2JZ.

 

[crisp]

:opcorn::




-crisp

 

[CajunKenny]

Are you actually able to adjust the timing with the MAFT-PRO? I havn't heard of anyone succesfully doing that. I wasn't even sure if the 7M stock ecu was that agressive in pulling timing when it senses knock. Good to know..

Very interesting topic. Keep us updated.

Sorry man. I missed your post...

My maft pro is setup to control timing; but, there are a couple things that still need to be worked out with that for it to be more reliable. My experience with it is that it does work; but, it isn't consistent. The car surged a bit when using it.