Water/Meth and High boost coming. Time for tuning help/suggestions/experience.

[TurboStreetCar]

I have yet to dyno but i have made over a hundred pulls with my combo. 700cc injectors, MPT70 @ 20psi with a standalone and Devils Own bypass pump kit 12Gallon nozzle, havnt had an issue yet. Though my EGTS reach ~1560F. Im estimating about 450 to the tire, Complete street tune.

My Timing info can be found here http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?122834-Ignition-Timing

A buddy of mine just put a dyno in his shop so i plan on doing much testing in the near future.

My Trans is shot at the moment, as soon as my IPT kit gets here and i give it a rebuild ill be heading to the dyno.

 

[Supra0089]

I can't wait for you guys to get on the dyno, so I can get some ideas around what to expect in 4 months when I get to my local dyno/tuner.

My tuner has a lot of experience with Meth, so I'm feeling good about that.

Keep up the good work!

 

[TurboStreetCar]

This is the grey area I was talking about earlier in the thread and why it's so important to tune on the Dyno and if mixing Meth/Water to do so very carefully.

I always went on the rich side just to be safe.

Im a firm believer in staying on the rich side. Im currently in the low 11's the whole RPM range at boost. I cant say i really want to go much leaner then that.

Thanks for posting Nosechunks. It's great to hear from someone that's been down this road already...

My thought is that it isn't possible for the average Water/Meth user to know or calculate how much of each fuel is being burned. There are too many variables and the proper equipment and dyno time to determine that would be well out of most of our salary ranges. The best we can do is make informed decisions on what we can do ourselves and what others have done and found.

In my reading, I've found that the 50/50 mix is the best at reducing corrosion and the safest ratio to have on board because of the higher flash point.

As far as tuning goes, it's really no different than tuning with pump gas. The basics are the same, ie: Avoid Lean Conditions, Avoid Rich Conditions, and Tune for optimum power. Quench is probably the most encountered problem with water/meth injection.

I've been on the dyno three times now tuning with our local 92 Octane fuel containing 10% Ethanol. Despite weather differences, my car's MBT is right around 16 psi @ ~11.1 afr. Any more boost than that, and the ECU pulls timing. I'm expecting a much higher MBT with the meth.

Do you happen to have any water/meth dyno sheets to share...coupled with timing data?

In my mind, there are some common rules of thumb; but, none of this should be done without the ability to monitor knock and the TQ curve.

The only thing i want to stress is not to assume its the same as tuning with plain pump gas. When adding in different fuels you need to do further tuning to assure that what your are doing and mixing will work correctly and not backfire.

As i pointed out that the air fuel may need to be adjusted based upon the percentage of fuel replaced by methanol already changes the "plain as pump" process.

I also think there is more to getting the right amount of water/meth then an AF change. I think the amount that you inject is proportionate to how much is needed not just a cookie cutter rule.

 

[IJ.]

And this is why you haven't had an oops yet Dan

 

[TurboStreetCar]

:biglaugh: Im actually surprised at how well the engine runs with my street guesswork tune.

Im VERY interested to see what i find on the dyno when i bump the timing to to find its peak. Im hoping theres more timing left in the tune to help with my high EGT's Though i think it may just be where my engine is happy.

Theres alot of Guides or references that you should see when tuning but every engine is going to run best where ever that engine is happy. Alot of people tell me my AFR's are way too rich but my engine seems to run so well. My EGTS of 1560 Also seem really high but to me they tell me my 11.2 AFR's are lean enough. Im hoping wih the addition of timing advance the EGT's will drop slightly down to 1500 or under.

I think im going to shoot for a target of 11.5 AF and 2-3 degrees under the point of best power when i hit the dyno. That should be a relatively safe margin right Ian?

 

[IBoughtASupra]

I would always run my engine a little bit more on the rich side. Who cares abou the the 15HP I can gain. I like 11.2-11.5 under boost. I have never used, installed or even seen a meth kit but once I get my engine broken in, I will look into it.

 

[Devin LeBlanc]

I tuned on 11.2-11.5 going back and tuning for 11.5-11.8

 

[suprahero]

Most of the guys on SF that have methanol kits tune for 12.0...... I usually tune mine for 11.6 and it's lasted a good while. I'm on one nozzle but I don't know what my afr's would be without the methanol since I haven't done it without it. If I had to guess, I'd say it would be about 12.2 or somewhere there abouts.

I'm still thinking about switching to e85, but I've got to pick up two 55 gallon drums to store it in. I have a VP sales rep that lives two miles from me and he said he had two that I could have for fifteen dollars a piece. Then all I need are my new injectors and some more tuning.

 

[IJ.]

You do know it doesn't "store" well J?

 

[CajunKenny]

Im a firm believer in staying on the rich side. Im currently in the low 11's the whole RPM range at boost. I cant say i really want to go much leaner then that.

The only thing i want to stress is not to assume its the same as tuning with plain pump gas. When adding in different fuels you need to do further tuning to assure that what your are doing and mixing will work correctly and not backfire.

As i pointed out that the air fuel may need to be adjusted based upon the percentage of fuel replaced by methanol already changes the "plain as pump" process.

I also think there is more to getting the right amount of water/meth then an AF change. I think the amount that you inject is proportionate to how much is needed not just a cookie cutter rule.

I am with you on the afr's. I tend to stay cautious. It's better to be rich and retarded than lean and broke. Plus, IMO there isn't enough power gain to merit pushing the envelope. Not for the average owner anyway...

I realize that tuning with a mixture of fuels will be different than tuning with straight pump gas. My point was that the concept and approach is the same. Use all of the typical data to tune by. AFR's, EGT's, MBT, TQ Curve, and Knock Detection if it's available. Or am I missing something?

Regarding backfire, is that typically the result of excessive quench?

I tuned on 11.2-11.5 going back and tuning for 11.5-11.8

11.5 = Mixture for Maximum TQ
12.0 = Mixture for Maximum HP
11.2 = Mixture for Safety!

 

[CajunKenny]

Food for thought...

Latent heat of vaporization (in BTU/lb at 60ºF - average) [Cooling effect provided per lb of fuel.]:
Pump gas - 150
Race Gas - 160
Ethanol - 396
Methanol - 506

Water - 970
50/50 Water/Methanol - ~739

 

[CPT Furious]

How's this whole thing going? Updates? ::wink::

 

[grimreaper]

I think the supra is still on the jack stands. Plus kens been riding the mountain bike with a snow plow on it lately..

 

[TurboStreetCar]

Im still in process of rebuilding my trans.

After its back in im going to my friends shop to help break in the new dyno.

 

[CajunKenny]

grim is right. I've been cuddled up next to the fireplace...

Today however, we hit 58* with some sun! I was finally able to get a few things painted. Re-assembly underway...

 

[CajunKenny]

Ok. Reviving the old thread since I now have the kit fully installed and pumping...


All I can say is WOW! Why didn't I do this earlier!?

Current fuel/meth setup:
92 Octane w/ 10% Ethanol
FP set to 42psi w/o vac
Boost Target 17 psi
550cc Injectors
Walbro 255 (no idea if it's the standard or the HP)
Medium Nozzle (325cc iirc)
Meth Controller Settings: Start Boost = 4psi/Max Boost = 15psi
Pre-Meth AFR Target 11.5-11.7 (my tune changed a little bit because of cooler weather)

Initial Thought: Start safe! Leave the tune the same and introduce the meth to see how things react.

Initial impression: Acceleration felt much smoother and the butt dyno seemed to feel a bit more G's. More on the added G's later...


Here is a Pre-Meth Log:
-Peak Boost = 4704rpm
-Timing = 10.66*
-AFR = 12.05

Post-Meth Log:
-Peak Boost = 4637
-Timing = 15.32*
-AFR = 11.24

There are a few key things that I focused on here. AFR, Peak Boost/RPM relationship, and Timing. For those that don't know, peak TQ happens at peak boost which is what makes that data critical. Having no experience with water/meth, I was pleased with my initial setup. The tune needs work; but, my guesstimates were in the ballpark.

Key points:
-Peak Boost- Occurred at nearly the same rpm point in both logs which indicates that at that point, quench is at a minimum.

-Timing- This area is a bit foggy to me still; but, one thing is for sure. The ECU is pulling less timing when the meth is injected. Remember those extra G's that I mentioned? The water/meth is reducing knock so the ECU doesn't need to make knock related timing adjustments. Compare the timing data between the two logs. With the meth, timing is much smoother because of the reduction in knock.

-AFR- I have done a ton of reading on this area in particular and have made the general conclusion that a change of .5 in AFR is typical and some say ideal. My approach here is to not rely completely on the water/meth. Not initially anyway. What I mean by that is if for some reason, there is a water/meth injection failure, I want my tune to be somewhat safe. My AFR goal is 11.2 w/meth which would be 11.7 in the event of a failure. Granted, engine safety is boost dependent as well; but, in relation to AFR, that's where I aim to be.

I do not claim to be an expert so correct me as needed.

That's where I'm at now. I will update as I can...

 

[MRSUPRA]

Are you actually able to adjust the timing with the MAFT-PRO? I havn't heard of anyone succesfully doing that. I wasn't even sure if the 7M stock ecu was that agressive in pulling timing when it senses knock. Good to know..

Very interesting topic. Keep us updated.

 

[Nick M]

I just went out logged a run. At 4750 rpm and 16.21 psi, my timing is at 15.98*. 4750 rpm is also when Peak TQ and Peak Boost occur.

Does anyone else have similar data they can share?

I can tell you my Boss Jr (57 trim T04E) had a torque peak about 4700 rpm. I know that isn't the point of your thread. Why use meth? What kind of power are you shooting for, and is your gas that bad?

 

[CajunKenny]

Thanks for the peak torque info.

I'm not shooting for some super high number. I'd like to see low to mid 400's with my current setup.

My main goal with the meth is "safe" power. I can see the ECU pull more and more timing as boost increases. No doubt knock related... Watching my timing data at 18 psi on pump gas was scary! I prefer to not rely on my knock sensors more than I have to.

 

[suprastroker88]

wow. i just read this whole thread and I am definitely thinking about running a water/meth kit down the line. More because here in california, for the most part we're restricted to 91 octane fuel and I would like to run like 20psi daily. Right now, I'm scared to run more than 16psi unless i go to the track and throw in a few gallons of 100 octane. I kinda like IJ's setup, seems a bit more "accurate and safe". Maybe its a dumb question, but do you use regular fuel injectors to inject the water/meth?