tunning @ 16 psi am I crazy???????????
- Thread starter supra8903
- Start date
bigaaron said:
he never said he was on a stock gasket. a stock motor w/ mhg. all i was trying to do was insert my experiences. everyone ive mentioned are friends of mine and most of which ive worked on or had a hand in at some point. not random people i saw on the internet to try to make as an example. im done here. it seems at this point you are just going out of your way to be a prick. fine. we are nothing but some southern rednecks w/ "unconventional" thinking anyway.
dbsupra90 said:
I'm being a prick? I try to speak out to caution people about urging others to run high boost on a stock headgasket, and I'm a prick? I tried to explain that people making big power on stock headgaskets has happened, but much more often people experience headgasket problems and a metal headgasket is a good idea. Then a gang of people say how much hp they made and how much abuse their stock headgasket took, somehow implying that I don't know what I am talking about and a mhg is a waste of time and money. So rather then personal attacks, I got a little sarcastic, but don't call me a prick bro. This thread was about the limits of the stock hg, what does making 700whp with a mhg have to do with that? And I didn't call anyone a redneck, I don't even know you. I'm not holding anyone back. I'm just trying to get people to make good educated decisions about what is a good idea to do with their engine. I think the people I was intending to target will get the idea. Plus, I'm white and I like rednecks. I have some in my family actually.
I honestly don't understand the logic. Here's an example:
You want to go 149mph. Plenty of people have driven 160mph on 149mph rated tires and they didn't blow. Does that mean it's a good idea?
NO. Is buying 200mph rated tires a waste of money even if you may never drive that fast? Probably not. I am the type who would buy 200mph rated tires to go 160mph. That's just me, but I would urge others to do the same. And if you urged others to do otherwise I would speak out against you. It's nothing personal.
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Well, that escalated quickly.
A MHG is a good idea, yes. Personally, I'd like to know how many stock fuel people blow a composite gasket that has been torqued correctly, vs the people that have blown a stocker when running Lexus AFM + 550's. The extra timing I'm sure isn't helping, when you lean out the mixture via a SAFC (which incidently - ADDS MORE TIMING)
I'm going to see how the stock Fel-Pro does, with a CT26 upgrade on stock fuel system, and then on an AEM. Just for the sake of learning
A MHG is a good idea, yes. Personally, I'd like to know how many stock fuel people blow a composite gasket that has been torqued correctly, vs the people that have blown a stocker when running Lexus AFM + 550's. The extra timing I'm sure isn't helping, when you lean out the mixture via a SAFC (which incidently - ADDS MORE TIMING)
I'm going to see how the stock Fel-Pro does, with a CT26 upgrade on stock fuel system, and then on an AEM. Just for the sake of learning
aaron-
sarcasm doesnt translate well over the net. i do not know you either and i took those as a personal attack. the sole point i was trying to make was pure boost level doesnt nec determine anything. its detonation that does. whether that be at 16psi, 6psi, or 30psi. then it all went to shit from there.
we have both made our opinion heard, and let others decide how they want to go about things. i am by no means telling people what they can and cant do. was merely stating my opinions and experiences, which just happened to differ from yours. i'll leave it at that.
on a side note, i never bashed the mhg. i think they are a great idea. just wasnt the point of my discussion here.
sarcasm doesnt translate well over the net. i do not know you either and i took those as a personal attack. the sole point i was trying to make was pure boost level doesnt nec determine anything. its detonation that does. whether that be at 16psi, 6psi, or 30psi. then it all went to shit from there.
we have both made our opinion heard, and let others decide how they want to go about things. i am by no means telling people what they can and cant do. was merely stating my opinions and experiences, which just happened to differ from yours. i'll leave it at that.
on a side note, i never bashed the mhg. i think they are a great idea. just wasnt the point of my discussion here.
Loki said:
Mine too. I pulled the head off of my 1991 turbo with 79K miles, and the stock gasket was perfect. I had retorqued it when I bought the car back in 1996. I had all the bolt-ons with stock turbo running 14psi. Head gasket was perfect.
The reason I pulled the head is because I burned an exhaust valve. A piece of metal got lodged in the valve seat and slowly burned the valve away. Don't know where it came from!
Anyhow, I got the head rebuilt and put another stock gasket in there with stock bolts torqued to 54ft lbs since I did not get the block decked. Didn't want to risk a leak with a metal gasket. After 1500 miles of easy driving, I retorqued the bolts to 74ft lbs.
I guess it just depends on how the car was maintained. :icon_conf
this is where the turbo/exhaust wrap, intake heat shields, along w/ intercooler spray kits of all kinds, composite intake mani. gaskets, and cold air intakes come into play... all of which i put on my car, so when i do run high boost on the ct :nono: it'll be at it's highest efficiency...Doward said:Detonation kills the gasket. Stock CT26 + elevated boost levels WILL increase your intake temps, and when you increase those temps far enough, you will start to detonate slightly... Will your old, worn out knock sensors pick it up?
Sure hope so.
14 psi is not unreasonable to me either. I ran 14psi on mine for a while on the stock hg before it blew, but that was years ago and back then I didn't surface the block because I didn't know about the in's and out's of the 7m. I also didn't raise the stock bolt torque or do a retorque. Maybe if I did it would have stayed together.
Main danger I see in threads like this is a Newbie comes in scans the thread reads what he wants to see that he can run xxpsi and goes off and detonates his motor.....
I just purchased a 90 turbo with very good documentation. Looking at the records
06/18/03
ct26 turbo $1659 + other parts/labour $2353.90 CAN
03/16/04
"performance power tuning" tune turbo to adjust boost, running at 10 psi
turbo xs boost controller
april/04
I don't have the reciept for the bhg but dealer service records show that it was diagnosed at this time to the original owner
09/17/04
sold to second owner
april 06
sold to me with blown hg
I'm not sure when the hg was done but i'm sure in that time it must have been done. here is what it looked like when I pulled it out in april. Perhaps it would have lasted longer if he had taken it to a better mechanic or had toyota do it.
06/18/03
ct26 turbo $1659 + other parts/labour $2353.90 CAN
03/16/04
"performance power tuning" tune turbo to adjust boost, running at 10 psi
turbo xs boost controller
april/04
I don't have the reciept for the bhg but dealer service records show that it was diagnosed at this time to the original owner
09/17/04
sold to second owner
april 06
sold to me with blown hg
I'm not sure when the hg was done but i'm sure in that time it must have been done. here is what it looked like when I pulled it out in april. Perhaps it would have lasted longer if he had taken it to a better mechanic or had toyota do it.
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bigaaron said:
First off the horsepower comment on my part was made to again point out yet another limitation put on these engines and your right it didn't have anything to do with this thread, but neither did you using this thread as another opportunity to sell parts, see page 2. You come off in these statements you make that elevated boost levels will blow the stock headgasket end of story. There are many causes for a blown headgasket that have nothing to do with just elevated boost levels. Detonation is the biggest killer of any engine, especially a turbo engine. Metal headgaskets, forged pistons, ARP bolts, and bigger intercoolers are just added insurance or protection but certainly not the iron clad gaurantee you make them out to be. There is nothing that replaces good solid tuning practices for running elevated boost levels on any engine with a stock headgasket or not. I didn't notice too many people asking if he had much if any experience tuning at higher boost levels. I also didn't notice people asking how he was going to monitor for detonation, how he was going to correct this should it arrise, what was his target a/f ratio. All I saw was no, you can't do this and that is not a true statement. You can tune a 7m to run 16 psi on the stock headgasket with no ill effects if you pay attention to what you are doing. Sure there are risks, but there are risks with tuning any engine no matter how it's built. Besides if detonation is a big killer of stock headgaskets and you put a mhg on to help contain this, then what. Something has to give, if not the headgasket then you might knock the ring lands out or a hole in the piston. Rather than saying no, why not address things to be mindful of and make this thread a helpful addition to this board.
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X-man said:
OMG, it was a joke. You have two company websites in your sig, and a third one in your car pic. Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black huh?
I've been trying to be a helpful member of the community here for years and I've helped out with probably 100 headgasket threads over that time, it's not like this is anything new. If you had been here longer you would know where i'm coming from and that i'm harmless and joke around a lot, and sometimes the jokes are admittedly bad.
Forget elevated boost level, the wrong kind (or not enough) coolant can kill the stock headgasket on stock boost alone.X-man said:
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wow, this is worse than 1jz vs. 7m
For every one good head gasket story, I've seen 500 bad ones.
For every one good head gasket story, I've seen 500 bad ones.
mattjk said:
I needed to hear that from somebody so bad right now! I was starting to think I am crazy and just imagining the daily bhg threads on ALL the supra websites.
But like usual I pushed this too far to where they want to hang the messenger instead of hearing the message. Sorry for the hassle I caused.
Maybe I can redeem myself with some actual visible reasons why I think how I do. Here are some good bhg pics for your viewing pleasure.
Keep in mind that the circumstances behind each one of these stock headgasket failures could happen to your engine at some point. Things go wrong even when you don't expect. A mhg just gives you some extra insurance.
A lot of times the coolant passage sealing parts of the hg just erode until there is nothing around the cylinder rings of the hg to hold them in place, and at that point any amount of boost could make it fail.
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hah, no problem. you just got hit with bad timing, I'm sure we'll get an influx of bhg stories tomorrow.
I have 3 stock headgaskets I will give away for free, because we don't use them. You just pay the shipping, and you have to report the engine status on the forum in 6 months and one year.
(this is for people building an engine now, not for resale or business use)
(this is for people building an engine now, not for resale or business use)
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Doward said:Bigaaron, I'll take you up on that offer
EDIT
You don't qualify:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20884
You already have one and you said the head was on and torqued. If you blow that one THEN I'll send you one.
On second thought, I'll send you one anyways because I forgot to put the terms first and you might need it.
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Doward said:Bigaaron, I'll take you up on that offer
hey, get 2 so you can lower the compression at the same time.
:biglaugh: