Thinking about 2uz swap in a 89 mkiii
- Thread starter Kyle Hartman
- Start date
just wanted to add my bit:
Weight:
The 2UZ 4.7L block weighs a grand total of 82lbs (~37.2kg) more than the aluminum blocked UZ engines. Given the weight savings the 1uz enjoys over the 7m/xJ series engines this shouldn't be a major concern. The pushrod SBC motors are lighter, however.
1UZ vs. 2UZ vs. 1UZ VVTi vs. 2UZ VVTi:
early 1UZs are the cheap as beans variety, and offer the lowest power, reasonable weight, and relatively simple (non-immobilized, cable throttle) wiring. Up to '95-96 (depending LS or SC) they had the nice beefy rods as well, and weren't interference.
later (98-00) 1UZ VVTi engines had lighter (skinny) rods, are roughly double the price (going rate ~$1100+ in my area), offer a lot more power over a much wider range due to both a greatly improved head and intake manifold design, but are OBDII and throttle by wire (though they have throttle cables for backup use).
2UZs came in 2 variants, non-VVTi and VVTi. Non-VVTi are much more common, and wiring is similar to the 1UZ-VVTi, though one should note that 01+ cars will have CAN and other body ecu crap integrated into them that may be annoying to sort out. Going rate is slightly higher than the 1UZ VVTi, with the price going up the newer the motor.
HEAD Flow:
early 1UZ (pre '95/96) have the LOWEST flowing heads of the lot. '95/96-97 (LS, SC respectively) had minor improvements.
VVTi 1UZ (98-00) and 3UZ ('01+) had MUCH MUCH HIGHER FLOWING HEADS!!! This is not only due to the VVTi, but rather a very different head and intake manifold design which
is shared on the 2UZ (all years). In essence, Head flow between VVTi 1/2/3UZ and non-VVTi 2UZ are comparable.
Interchangeability:
block vs. head wise, all 1/2/3UZ are interchangeable, but with limitations on rotating assy. For example, you can't bolt up a 1UZ-VVTi head/intake onto your early 1UZ, as the pistons will foul the valves since the later engines were interference where as the first gens are not. There's a big spreadsheet type thing on Lextreme showing what's known interchangeable and what's not.
'98+ intake manifolds are interchangeable, but will not work with pre '98 heads. Also, You cannot run a '98+ head/intake setup on an early 1UZ electrical system due to both the drive by wire and the fact that the later cars run distributor-less COP ignition.
I commend your idea to run a 2UZ but will also point out that in addition to the minor weight penalty, the 2UZ is a 2-bolt main engine, not 6-bolt. While for normal/mild builds that shouldn't be an issue, if you want to boost it you'll want to have that converted when you do the rods/pistons (which you'll have to because it has skinny rods lol).
Weight:
The 2UZ 4.7L block weighs a grand total of 82lbs (~37.2kg) more than the aluminum blocked UZ engines. Given the weight savings the 1uz enjoys over the 7m/xJ series engines this shouldn't be a major concern. The pushrod SBC motors are lighter, however.
1UZ vs. 2UZ vs. 1UZ VVTi vs. 2UZ VVTi:
early 1UZs are the cheap as beans variety, and offer the lowest power, reasonable weight, and relatively simple (non-immobilized, cable throttle) wiring. Up to '95-96 (depending LS or SC) they had the nice beefy rods as well, and weren't interference.
later (98-00) 1UZ VVTi engines had lighter (skinny) rods, are roughly double the price (going rate ~$1100+ in my area), offer a lot more power over a much wider range due to both a greatly improved head and intake manifold design, but are OBDII and throttle by wire (though they have throttle cables for backup use).
2UZs came in 2 variants, non-VVTi and VVTi. Non-VVTi are much more common, and wiring is similar to the 1UZ-VVTi, though one should note that 01+ cars will have CAN and other body ecu crap integrated into them that may be annoying to sort out. Going rate is slightly higher than the 1UZ VVTi, with the price going up the newer the motor.
HEAD Flow:
early 1UZ (pre '95/96) have the LOWEST flowing heads of the lot. '95/96-97 (LS, SC respectively) had minor improvements.
VVTi 1UZ (98-00) and 3UZ ('01+) had MUCH MUCH HIGHER FLOWING HEADS!!! This is not only due to the VVTi, but rather a very different head and intake manifold design which
is shared on the 2UZ (all years). In essence, Head flow between VVTi 1/2/3UZ and non-VVTi 2UZ are comparable.
Interchangeability:
block vs. head wise, all 1/2/3UZ are interchangeable, but with limitations on rotating assy. For example, you can't bolt up a 1UZ-VVTi head/intake onto your early 1UZ, as the pistons will foul the valves since the later engines were interference where as the first gens are not. There's a big spreadsheet type thing on Lextreme showing what's known interchangeable and what's not.
'98+ intake manifolds are interchangeable, but will not work with pre '98 heads. Also, You cannot run a '98+ head/intake setup on an early 1UZ electrical system due to both the drive by wire and the fact that the later cars run distributor-less COP ignition.
I commend your idea to run a 2UZ but will also point out that in addition to the minor weight penalty, the 2UZ is a 2-bolt main engine, not 6-bolt. While for normal/mild builds that shouldn't be an issue, if you want to boost it you'll want to have that converted when you do the rods/pistons (which you'll have to because it has skinny rods lol).
That's all part of why I am such a big fan of the early 1UZ. They are quite a sturdy engine in stock form and have been run with high boost and held up fine with out building them up at all. The way I look at it costs me $500 each time I have bought a 1UZ, I then sell the cats for $75 each for scrap so the end cost is only $350 and that's if I don't sell any other extra unneeded bits. If I were replaceing a dead 1UZ I could probably get over $150 for it in scrap. While in the past 6 years neather of my 2 1uz powered cars has ever had its engine die its only around $200 and a weekend of my time to replace. Plus I wind up with a bunch of spare parts like ps pumps, alts, harnesses EXT.
The head flow is kinda the big disappointment of the 1UZ but cams, and over sized valves are available if you so desire. Its not a bolt in swap by any means but the only costly parts I had to buy were 1Jz to r154 bellhouseing for $375, a 1uz to 1jz adapter plate for $600 and I had phenox tuning make me a plug and play harness for around $550. For the most part I eather used stock parts or made the rest my self. I would appropriate the total cost of the swap to be just under $3000. Now I have a strong, reliable engine that's good on gas and almost free to replace if it ever dies.
The head flow is kinda the big disappointment of the 1UZ but cams, and over sized valves are available if you so desire. Its not a bolt in swap by any means but the only costly parts I had to buy were 1Jz to r154 bellhouseing for $375, a 1uz to 1jz adapter plate for $600 and I had phenox tuning make me a plug and play harness for around $550. For the most part I eather used stock parts or made the rest my self. I would appropriate the total cost of the swap to be just under $3000. Now I have a strong, reliable engine that's good on gas and almost free to replace if it ever dies.
IJ.;1888204 said:Didn't know they were 2 bolters, thanks for that
no problem, rumor is that Toyota didnt feel they needed the 6-bolt main for the 2UZ since it's an extra-dense (cite) iron block. the 1UZ was originally codeveloped to serve dual purpose as a base for a saloon car engine hence the over-square, short stroke, 6-bolt main, etc...
EDIT: Also, redrocco, it's documented that standard late model (98+) heads flow better than even ported+polished (though idk about OS valves) early heads. You can swap the later heads and intakes on though if you are willing to go standalone w/proper pistons.
If they cast it from the same mix as 7M's I'd agree it's some of the hardest cast iron I've ever machined!PureDrifter;1888219 said:
(gotta :love: learning new shit!)
I forgot to to add the flywheel into my list of swap parts. I got a pair of them (i think they were the first 2 he finished) for only $200 from suprarunner back in 07 because I helped him with the R&D and provided him with all the bolt patterns for the W58and R154 supra pressure plates.
I have thought about the head swap as I am running full stand alone at this point but the cost of pistons and ARP hardware and MLS gaskets has kept me from doing it since I plan to replace the 1UZ in my black supra with the 1GZ that I got in February. The 1UZ is going to be moved into my blue mk3 supra and put back to NA for the moment so I am trying to not spend any more money on it then i really have to. In the future once I get the 1GZ all set and running the way I want I will go back and see what more I can do to my 1UZ. I will have to compare the flow of stock 98+ heads to early heads with kelford cams and see what gets the most for the money.
I have thought about the head swap as I am running full stand alone at this point but the cost of pistons and ARP hardware and MLS gaskets has kept me from doing it since I plan to replace the 1UZ in my black supra with the 1GZ that I got in February. The 1UZ is going to be moved into my blue mk3 supra and put back to NA for the moment so I am trying to not spend any more money on it then i really have to. In the future once I get the 1GZ all set and running the way I want I will go back and see what more I can do to my 1UZ. I will have to compare the flow of stock 98+ heads to early heads with kelford cams and see what gets the most for the money.
If you are serious about upgrading the heads on your 1UZ to the later model heads, I would recco you take a look at fitting early (non-VVTi) 2UZ heads instead of 1/3UZ VVTi heads. You'll still have to go standalone (since there's no provision for distributors iirc) but you'll be able to use normal cams, which are a hell of a lot easier to find (kelford for example) than VVTi cams (for which nobody makes blanks...). You could use the 2UZ non-VVTi heads with the 1/3UZ VVTi intake manifolds since they clear a lot better in cars than the long runner truck intake manis do. (i'd stick to '1UZ since the wiring will be slightly easier).redrocco;1888454 said:
I've actually got 90% of a 1UZ-W58 conversion setup sitting in my garage, all i'm missing is the T56-TOB, and TOB adapter plate. Kind of on the fence about going early 1UZ (cheap, but low gains) or biting the bullet and doing some 5.3L Vortec + Novak AX15 adapter+R154 monstrosity. Heavier, more power, but a fair bit more money since my car's currently a dead motor'd NA W58.
Stay away from the 2UZ, just don't even go there.
2UZ with 1UZ heads.....Better, but you are going to suffocate that displacement, but at least you will be able to rev. Stock 2UZ cams are not ment for rev's.
2UZ's blocks break around the 800hp mark
My recommendation would be any good old 95-older 1UZ. Stock cams aren't as bad as people may think, and the heads don't flow that bad. Question for some of you guys out there dogging on the 1UZ. Have you actually ever FLOWED a 1UZ head? My guess would be NO!!! Another question, have any of you actually ever boosted a stock motor? Only a few out there can say yes. A lot of crap gets thrown around on these forums.
A few facts:
1UZ heads flow just as good as 2JZGTE heads. How do I know....I personally tested!!
Rods are just as strong as 2JZ rods, how do I know.... I personally tested
1UZ pistons are manufactured in the same fashion as 2J pistons, so you assume that they are close to the same strength.(I should go measure the ring lands)
This being said, then in theory as long as the block holds together, a stock form 1UZ can do 1200rwhp out of the box, although I have yet to see any hard evidence of someone attempting to push the max ouf the the 1UZ. Usually the internals get upgraded anything after 600rwhp. It used to be pretty well accepted that a 2J could only handle 600rwhp, we all know that just is not true. I would truly love to see someone see how far they can take a stock 1UZ.
That being said, how much HP can a stock LSx motor take without upgrades? Might be similar I guess, but the motor alone is going to cost you 5K, where as a good condition used 1UZ.....$350. Now you can spend the other $4650 on the turbo conversion and electronics.
I have a local friend with a turbo LS400, only 9psi, but at 9, that things moves.
I have had two supercharged 1UZ's, one with a M90 and the other with an M112. My recommendation.. DON'T DO IT!!!! Neither charger is big enough and the parasitic loss is awefull.
In my personal opinion, LSx swaps are way overdone. Easy, yes, very easy and in many cases even though the cost is more for the motor, the end result for the power output desired can be less than other swaps. But again.....OVERDONE!!!! So you open your hood, and guys are like oh, cool, a vette motor, then move on. I see so many LSx swaps, they bore crap out of me. Dealing with an LS6 FD swap right now.
2UZ with 1UZ heads.....Better, but you are going to suffocate that displacement, but at least you will be able to rev. Stock 2UZ cams are not ment for rev's.
2UZ's blocks break around the 800hp mark
My recommendation would be any good old 95-older 1UZ. Stock cams aren't as bad as people may think, and the heads don't flow that bad. Question for some of you guys out there dogging on the 1UZ. Have you actually ever FLOWED a 1UZ head? My guess would be NO!!! Another question, have any of you actually ever boosted a stock motor? Only a few out there can say yes. A lot of crap gets thrown around on these forums.
A few facts:
1UZ heads flow just as good as 2JZGTE heads. How do I know....I personally tested!!
Rods are just as strong as 2JZ rods, how do I know.... I personally tested
1UZ pistons are manufactured in the same fashion as 2J pistons, so you assume that they are close to the same strength.(I should go measure the ring lands)
This being said, then in theory as long as the block holds together, a stock form 1UZ can do 1200rwhp out of the box, although I have yet to see any hard evidence of someone attempting to push the max ouf the the 1UZ. Usually the internals get upgraded anything after 600rwhp. It used to be pretty well accepted that a 2J could only handle 600rwhp, we all know that just is not true. I would truly love to see someone see how far they can take a stock 1UZ.
That being said, how much HP can a stock LSx motor take without upgrades? Might be similar I guess, but the motor alone is going to cost you 5K, where as a good condition used 1UZ.....$350. Now you can spend the other $4650 on the turbo conversion and electronics.
I have a local friend with a turbo LS400, only 9psi, but at 9, that things moves.
I have had two supercharged 1UZ's, one with a M90 and the other with an M112. My recommendation.. DON'T DO IT!!!! Neither charger is big enough and the parasitic loss is awefull.
In my personal opinion, LSx swaps are way overdone. Easy, yes, very easy and in many cases even though the cost is more for the motor, the end result for the power output desired can be less than other swaps. But again.....OVERDONE!!!! So you open your hood, and guys are like oh, cool, a vette motor, then move on. I see so many LSx swaps, they bore crap out of me. Dealing with an LS6 FD swap right now.
For what it is worth guys, the plan is to turbo the 1uz going into the Chevy at some point. Nothing too crazy (it is a fairly high mileage car), but just to balance out the loss that you suffer at altitude makes cars nice.
QFT.
Also, steer clear of the 95-97 1UZFE if you are going to use stock pistons. The rings aren't carried aftermarket (trust me, I looked and looked and looked) and Toyota wants your first 3 children for a set.
Best bang for the buck, 92-94 1UZ. You can get them for pennies on the dollar from a pick and pull. Another better difference between the 1UZ and 2UZ is the 1UZ uses a 6 bolt main where the 2UZ has a 2 bolt.
Lastly, have fun getting 98 VVTI heads on a pre-98 block. They aren't compatible due to the differences in the oil channels that come up to the heads.
EDIT: And of course I didn't read all the pages so some of the info I give is redundant. Doesn't make it any less true though.
Also, steer clear of the 95-97 1UZFE if you are going to use stock pistons. The rings aren't carried aftermarket (trust me, I looked and looked and looked) and Toyota wants your first 3 children for a set.
Best bang for the buck, 92-94 1UZ. You can get them for pennies on the dollar from a pick and pull. Another better difference between the 1UZ and 2UZ is the 1UZ uses a 6 bolt main where the 2UZ has a 2 bolt.
Lastly, have fun getting 98 VVTI heads on a pre-98 block. They aren't compatible due to the differences in the oil channels that come up to the heads.
EDIT: And of course I didn't read all the pages so some of the info I give is redundant. Doesn't make it any less true though.
SuperRunner;1888615 said:
We have a TVS 2300 waiting to go on the Soarer, personally I think it's too much blower for the 4.0L But Al wants to go ahead with it..
SuperRunner;1888615 said:
I know I am cutting down his statement which is very informative but thank god someone else said this other then me. lol
I am sitting on a full 1992 LS400 right now that is locally available. It doesn't run the best but is only 900 bucks and sounds like the timing belt skipped a couple teeth. I want the steering column, motor and dash for my next supra project..... wait... first I gotta finish mine.
IJ.;1888851 said:
As long as you got enough fuel and the right kind of fuel, most definitely not too much. Remember, the 1UZ has a small crank pulley compared to other motors that charger goes onto. I always ran the smallest pulley possible, and even with my M112 I maxed out at 7psi(4800ft elevation)
Speaking of such, my SC kit is for sale if anyone is interested.
I may buy a 92 ls400 and use it. Would the trans in it work for the swap as well? The dude lost the title and is selling it 1000obo. Which in my eyes isn't bad for the car. It looks taken care of and has no mechanical issues. Miles aren't high either
Kyle Hartman;1889080 said:
"lost title" is a red flag to me. There's always the chance of it being stolen, so you'll want to work on getting the title squared away. Getting caught with stolen goods isn't a good thing...