The boys are coming home from Iraq

[dulobast25]

adjuster, you were right on the highway death rate except that most folks consider driving on US highwasy necessary. Most folk DONT feel the war in iraq was necessary. They DO feel that the war in afghanistan was necessary though.
Some liberal are pussies and there anr many who are smarter and tougher than you. Unfortuantely in this counrty you will have to learn to deal with both. Being a physical coward isnt much worse than being an intellectual coward. Do Dems feel that they should be in power? Of course! Would i rather them be in power? Of course. Would Dems be corrupt iw there is no balance power? I think so. Most Americans and most liberasl just want check and balances on the power of this government. They Dont want the U.S. to lose. You have no proof to support those claims. They are silly. I do know what many dems and Americans want to be proven right, which has been happening since thw war began, but NOT at the cost of human lives. Do dems care if the terrorist hate us? No. They do care if we create more Amerca hater, though. We have enough as it stands. its a practical issue of divide an conquer. The terrorists are best served if Americsa dissolves from within and then is abandoned by its allies. To some degree that happening now, that is what Dems are "whinning about". Our freedoms are dissolving. Why should you care? becasue according to president Bush., the terrorists hate our freedom. As we lose our freedoms, the terrorsist celebrate. As we lose lives and finances in this war, they celebrate. They achieved much of their goal the day they struck. What they didnt want is an America that wasnt gonna change from within. That wasnt about to change values nor priorities. They hoped to morph american attitudes, value and priorities. Our attitudes, values and priorities did change. This isnt the country i grew up in.

 

[Adjuster]

We have gained nothing?

How does 6 years of no attacks on American soil sound?

Sounds like something to me, and definately not nothing you purport it to be.

You call names like Nazi, yet you know nothing about the subject other than the name.

The United States of America is not the Nazi's. If you can't see that, your past any hope in my opinion.

 

[mc_h]

We have gained nothing?

How does 6 years of no attacks on American soil sound?

Sounds like something to me, and definately not nothing you purport it to be.

You call names like Nazi, yet you know nothing about the subject other than the name.

The United States of America is not the Nazi's. If you can't see that, your past any hope in my opinion.

You're wasting your time....
Liberals more often than not have the IQ of a peanut.

 

[dulobast25]

You're wasting your time....
Liberals more often than not have the IQ of a peanut.

Mc_h

You talk about name calling, check your own post. Check the post responded to. Dont see u checking him for name calling either.
In addition. Again, the reasoning that we havent been attacked since 9-11 in illogical. Tell me what it means. We were not attacked on 9-10-01. We werent attacked on 8-10-01 either. There is no logical or casusal connection between those 2. U sir msut then have the IQ of scrotum dermis. Abandon the "we havent been attacked since 9-11"reasoning. If gives a false sense of security. Who said the United States of American is a NAZI? Read the post again. I Didnt know adjuster was the united states. Obviously i was referrign to a particular person, who beforehand referred to me and a hippie. BTW, I am not a country either. I am also an individual. I dont think adjuster was calling the US a hippie. Dont make any assertions about liberal intelligence until you come to grips with your lack of it.

 

[mc_h]

Mc_h

You talk about name calling, check your own post. Check the post responded to. Dont see u checking him for name calling either.
In addition. Again, the reasoning that we havent been attacked since 9-11 in illogical. Tell me what it means. We were not attacked on 9-10-01. We werent attacked on 8-10-01 either. There is no logical or casusal connection between those 2. U sir msut then have the IQ of scrotum dermis. Abandon the "we havent been attacked since 9-11"reasoning. If gives a false sense of security.

I talk about name calling? Really? Where...I'd love to see it
And what the fuck are you talking about? Who gives a shit what exact date 9/11 occurred on? It happened on 9/11. Haven't been attacked since then, since the Afghan war, since the Iraq war. Sorry man, your leftist "run away as fast as you can with your tail between your legs" plan doesn't fly.

 

[Adjuster]

I will agree on this.

Everything is perception.

Death however does not care about what you "think" death is, your still dead either way.

As far as your presumption that we are creating enemies who hate us by being there? Your assuming a Western thought path, or logic, and superimposing that onto a group of people who from the time they are concieved, to the moment they die, are taught to hate all things, ideas and peole "western".

You want to ignore that right now, in schools and homes all over the world, that millions of children are being taught to hate you, and I and everything about us. Hate our freedoms, our culture and they attach all sorts of "rewards" in heaven if you die defending your faith. Much like every religion based cuture in history has told it's followers that if you die in the service of your lord, your reward in heaven will be greater.

Typical propaganda, yet it's very powerful, and a serious threat, not to be taken lightly, or pawned off as the fault of one polical party or the other. What we do with this information is the fault of one political part or the other however.

Do we do nothing, and let this generation of hate fed Radical Islamics grow up and plot our demise, or do we take the fight to them, and kill them in their own back yards?

I for one am very much a realist, and never want to see my country or my children die at the hands of some chicken shite terrorist. (Spelling pun intended.)

Your idea that if we leave them alone, they will go away and leave us alone is utter bullshit and has proven to be a dangerous way of thinking.

We are doing it with North Korea and Iran right now, and in a few short years, it will come around and bite us in the ass. (In the form a Nuke detonated in some major city in the USA, likely in the name of Islam.)

I sure wish I was wrong, but it's more likely that I'm going to be right sooner than your going to prove me wrong.

I really wish you luck, but deep down, you know I'm right.

 

[dulobast25]

I agree with eveything you just said except the following:

Do we do nothing, and let this generation of hate fed Radical Islamics grow up and plot our demise, or do we take the fight to them, and kill them in their own back yards?

I for one am very much a realist, and never want to see my country or my children die at the hands of some chicken shite terrorist. (Spelling pun intended.)

Your idea that if we leave them alone, they will go away and leave us alone is utter bullshit and has proven to be a dangerous way of thinking.

We are doing it with North Korea and Iran right now, and in a few short years, it will come around and bite us in the ass. (In the form a Nuke detonated in some major city in the USA, likely in the name of Islam.)

I sure wish I was wrong, but it's more likely that I'm going to be right sooner than your going to prove me wrong.

I really wish you luck, but deep down, you know I'm right.[/QUOTE]


A) nobody in this country is suggesting we do nothing. I too am a realist. The question is is what we are are doing helping or can other methods be more effective. Thats all Americans want to know. that all i want to know. Thats what honset Dems want to know.
if you watch the news, you will see people who may have before been either neutral or even pro US have a change of opinion and have cursed "death to america" AFTER the war. If we assume ALL people in the reason hate the US, then i agree nothign we do will make a difference. But that isnt a realisitc assumption. That isnt statistically realistic. As a matter of fact there ARE iraqis AND folk in afghanistan that are GLAD we are there. These numbers are decreasing rapidly, but i dispoves the notion that since we are hated, we should be concerned with increasing american hatred. It idproves that fact on the ground dont influence the opinions of people on the groud in iraq and afghanistan. This suggests that they can have an entire host of opinions toward american beyond hate. Than isnt superimposing western values on others, it a matter of watching the reaction of iraqis on televisions and reading the reports from the govt and newspapers. As a matter of practically, it isnt much different than a prison population. The strong survive and rule, but more often than not, that strength comes in numbers. America is strenghtened iby sheer numbers by having more pro-american people and countries in the worlds. The opposite is also true.

We also need to address the reason why radical islam is trained to hate america. A lot of it has to do with our foreign policy. Obviously much of it is religion. In our war efforts we need to keep the reasons of why 9-11 happened in the first place. It wasnt for absolutely no reason. That thinking in naive. There had to be something to be gained by American suffering and loss. I tend to feel they wanted to encourage some change in the use of U.S. power. My idea has never been to leave them alone and they will go away. My thinking it to figure out what thay gain by american loss and address those casue an effect conditions.

 

[dulobast25]

I talk about name calling? Really? Where...I'd love to see it
And what the fuck are you talking about? Who gives a shit what exact date 9/11 occurred on? It happened on 9/11. Haven't been attacked since then, since the Afghan war, since the Iraq war. Sorry man, your leftist "run away as fast as you can with your tail between your legs" plan doesn't fly.

i dont have any "run away af fast as you can..." plan. thats some nonsense that you want to attribute to me. Namecalling was reffering to u labeling people that dont agree with you as "leftists with the iq of a peanut". Who said i gave a shit about an exact date? You are proving my point, sir. You really dont understand, do you. Let me say it again.

1) there is do democratic plans as you describe
2)we havent been attacked since 9-11
3) saying we havent been attacked since 9-11 is NO EVIDENCE that we have done anything to stop it no more than no being attacked on 9-10 proves that we couldnt be attacked later. We could be attacke tomorrow. Simply beaasue we werent attacked yesterday or today doesnt prove ANYTHING. Do you get it yet. The statements you make are not casually connected. If they did that woul mean since we were not attacked on 9-10 that Cliinton and bush were somehow preventing terrorist attacks since it wasnt happening. 9-11 proved that wrong. we can claim anything from not beng attacked since 9-11. Thats what the "fuck" I'm talking about.

 

[Adjuster]

Islam is trained to hate America because we love freedom, and they hate freedom.

It has nothing to do with our foreign policy, other than we support a free and existing Israel, and they support the distruction of Israel.

If you try and attach some kind of logic of our actions result in their hating us, your just going to confuse yourself because the problem is not the USA, it's the religion they are raised up to follow hates freedom of speach, freedom of religion and freedom of expression.

That my friend is the facts.

 

[dulobast25]

Ur proving my point

 

[mc_h]

i dont have any "run away af fast as you can..." plan. thats some nonsense that you want to attribute to me. Namecalling was reffering to u labeling people that dont agree with you as "leftists with the iq of a peanut". Who said i gave a shit about an exact date? You are proving my point, sir. You really dont understand, do you. Let me say it again.

1) there is do democratic plans as you describe
2)we havent been attacked since 9-11
3) saying we havent been attacked since 9-11 is NO EVIDENCE that we have done anything to stop it no more than no being attacked on 9-10 proves that we couldnt be attacked later. We could be attacke tomorrow. Simply beaasue we werent attacked yesterday or today doesnt prove ANYTHING. Do you get it yet. The statements you make are not casually connected. If they did that woul mean since we were not attacked on 9-10 that Cliinton and bush were somehow preventing terrorist attacks since it wasnt happening. 9-11 proved that wrong. we can claim anything from not beng attacked since 9-11. Thats what the "fuck" I'm talking about.

If there's leftists without an IQ of a peanut, I've only seen one and that would be Lieberman who's an independant now.

1) The whole democrat platform will be based on a cut & run plan come election time. They'll try to sugar coat it with the help of the media, no doubt.
2) That's what I said.
3) It does prove something. As already stated, 3 terrorist attacks have been stopped recently. As much as I didn't like Clinton, I'm sure his government was also taking measures to prevent terrorism at the time. Do you truly think you hear about even half of what goes on behind closed doors? And of course we could get attacked today or tomorrow - That's the world we live in. But your idea of sitting back and not taking the war to them really doesn't work. That's what was being done before and look what happened - These people won't leave us alone if we pretend to ignore them.

 

[mc_h]

Islam is trained to hate America because we love freedom, and they hate freedom.

It has nothing to do with our foreign policy, other than we support a free and existing Israel, and they support the distruction of Israel.

If you try and attach some kind of logic of our actions result in their hating us, your just going to confuse yourself because the problem is not the USA, it's the religion they are raised up to follow hates freedom of speach, freedom of religion and freedom of expression.

That my friend is the facts.

True, although I wouldn't go as far to say Islam itself is that way...But in the current state, people over there twist it to suit their own agenda.

 

[amd_hcds]

Islam is trained to hate America because we love freedom, and they hate freedom.

It has nothing to do with our foreign policy, other than we support a free and existing Israel, and they support the distruction of Israel.

If you try and attach some kind of logic of our actions result in their hating us, your just going to confuse yourself because the problem is not the USA, it's the religion they are raised up to follow hates freedom of speach, freedom of religion and freedom of expression.

That my friend is the facts.

Islam is not about hating America or hating freedom! In the Quran the book of Islam god said that "Reiligion is not by force" which means that god wanted muslims NOT to force people in their reiligion God said tell people about Islam but NEVER force them...So those terrorists fighting people in the name of islam are NOT muslims In my opinion.

The problem with Islam now is that it's leaders are doing things in the name of islam so they can make their own benefits and not caring about how other people around the world think about islam or muslims. They don't care that the current image of Islam is a terror religion and I don't blame anything for thinking so but the leaders in the middle east.

I know like an unlimited number of people here whom are muslims and LOVE america & LOVE it's freedom and they're doing their best to make their countries be like America ... So that is clear to me that they don't hate america. And now if you ask any good muslim would you like to go to America and live there they would say YES immediatly and if you ask why they'll say America is the land of freedom! So to me it appears that they don't hate america.

 

[dulobast25]

Very well said.
You know whats funny though, look back at your 2n or 3rd paragraph and replace muslim with christianity
.

The problem with Chrisitanity now is that it's leaders are doing things in the name of christianity so they can make their own benefits and not caring about how other people around the world think about christians or Americans. They don't care that the current image of christianity is a religion imposed on other nations and I don't blame anything for thinking so but the leaders in the western culture..

 

[dulobast25]

True, although I wouldn't go as far to say Islam itself is that way...But in the current state, people over there twist it to suit their own agenda.

True. this is done in this country and in places all over the world. Religion is on of the easiest things to twist to suit one particular agenda.

 

[dulobast25]

If there's leftists without an IQ of a peanut, I've only seen one and that would be Lieberman who's an independant now.
* lieberaman just follows anythign that he sees as pro israel. that doesnt make him a genius
1) The whole democrat platform will be based on a cut & run plan come election time. They'll try to sugar coat it with the help of the media, no doubt.
* the media wont help sugar coat anything that will help the democrats directly. Look closely, republican are "cutting and running" both fromt he war and the president
2) That's what I said.
* i know i was establishing the parameters of your comment
3) It does prove something. As already stated, 3 terrorist attacks have been stopped recently. As much as I didn't like Clinton, I'm sure his government was also taking measures to prevent terrorism at the time.
* people on your side claimed clinton did nothing to stop terror. Is your side still claiming this?
Do you truly think you hear about even half of what goes on behind closed doors?
* No, which goes to the heart of my point. And regardless of what we do or dont hear, if we are attacked our efforts failed. So all effort b4 9-11 including those of bush failed becasue it didnt prevent 9-11.
And of course we could get attacked today or tomorrow -
* thats why you cant use the fact that we werwent attacked as any benchmark, becasue we can be attacked at anytime. Now when we can say that confifecntly then we will have known that we have defeated terrorism That's the world we live in. But your idea of sitting back and not taking the war to them really doesn't work. That's what was being done before and look what happened -
* so if we are attacked tomorrow, then you would be willing to say that the bush plan didnt work. You would have to to stay true to your point.
These people won't leave us alone if we pretend to ignore them.

* Nobody is suggesting that we ignore or pretend to ignore terror in any way shape or form. Why is it that war supporters get caught in this either or mentallity where if you dont agree witht he iraq war than you must want to ignore that terrorsim exists. This is illogical. if we wanted to ignroe terrorism 90 % of americans would not have supported the afghanistan invasions. Dems wouldnt have supported it. Clinton didnt ignore terrorism either. I supported tha afgh invasion. There is no reason to if i feel terrorism should be ignored. That is a silly assertion.

 

[Aaron J Williams]

Islam is not about hating America or hating freedom! In the Quran the book of Islam god said that "Reiligion is not by force" which means that god wanted muslims NOT to force people in their reiligion God said tell people about Islam but NEVER force them...So those terrorists fighting people in the name of islam are NOT muslims In my opinion.

Yes and no. The Qur'an says to offer the unbelievers the choice of converting to Islam or becoming slaves (dhimmis) to Muslims. It says to spread Islamic law (shaira) by force and to kill unbelievers.

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

So, fight them, slay them, persecute them until they are dead or convert to Islam but don't force them.

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

Don't be the agressors unless the unbelievers resist Islamic rule, then you can kill them.

Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value). And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.

So if you are not a muslim fighter, then you fight for satan.
Here's where the jihadis get the decapitation idea from:

Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

And another call to action:

O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

And who pray tell are the unbelievers?

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The people of the book are Jews and Christians. How long are Muslims supposed to fight?

And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.

Fight until the whole world is under sharia law and Islamic rule.

Did you know that the punishment for converting from Islam to another religion is death?
Did you know that in order to prove a rape, the islamic woman must provide 4 male witnesses to the rape? If she doesn't then she is charged with adultery and murdered. 90% of women in Pakistani prisons are there because they are rape victims.
Did you know that the prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) married a 6 year old girl and had sex with her when she was 9 years old?

There is a reason that Islamic Jihadis do what they do, the Qur'an and the mullahs and sharia law tell them to.

I really think you are sincere in your belief and that's great! Muslims like you are the only hope for Islam's peaceful co-existance with the rest of the world. It's just too bad that your religious leaders will kill you if you speak up.

 

[amd_hcds]

I gotta say Aaron you really put alot of work in this! And what you said is right I totally agree with you and I still have an explination of my own for all this.

When god sent the Quran it was like messages to the prophet so that means he was talking to the prophet AT the time they were in which was like ages ago life & humans at that time were much diffrent than now.. the problem is now muslim leaders want to apply Islam as it's written in Quran well that can't be done cause we're in 2006 everything has changed now..Humans themselves are more civilized now.

Well I choose the religion of my own when people now ask me what's your religion I tell them my own.. I believe in God I do what I see is right and I don't care what other people's beliefs or religions cause religion is something for yourself something to keep inside you. Not something you work with or something you judge people by. I met some japanese people and they don't believe in God they have their own religion but I think they are MUCH MUCH better than some muslims here who pretend to be Islam-Followers. Judging someone is not by religion in my opinoin it's about what they do when they do in their life. I gotta say now Quran if you read it in arabic is a very complicated book so a phrase can mean more than one thing and have hidden meanings so it can be translated to normal language to diffrent translations so here where the problem begins....Evey Sharia man or called Emam translate Quran in a way that helps their own agendas and rule people by it.

Again my friend I never expected someone to be SO educated in Islam like you are. You speak out of knowledge which impresses me alot! Cause people usually judge Islam taking the acts of a bunch of crazy terrorists running their own agendas by the name of Islam but you don't.

 

[Aaron J Williams]

Assalamu Alaikum (May Peace Be Upon You)

When god sent the Quran it was like messages to the prophet so that means he was talking to the prophet AT the time they were in which was like ages ago life & humans at that time were much diffrent than now.. the problem is now muslim leaders want to apply Islam as it's written in Quran well that can't be done cause we're in 2006 everything has changed now..Humans themselves are more civilized now.

You are absolutely right.

Well I choose the religion of my own when people now ask me what's your religion I tell them my own.. I believe in God I do what I see is right and I don't care what other people's beliefs or religions cause religion is something for yourself something to keep inside you.

My beliefs are the same as yours, my faith is between me and God. My honor is the only thing I take with me to the afterlife. My words and deeds are the only things of value in this world. I will stand before God and and be held to account for my words and deeds.

I gotta say now Quran if you read it in arabic is a very complicated book so a phrase can mean more than one thing and have hidden meanings so it can be translated to normal language to diffrent translations so here where the problem begins....Evey Sharia man or called Emam translate Quran in a way that helps their own agendas and rule people by it.

And the Imams get away with it because many Muslims can't read arabic. They memorize the suras but rely on the Imams to give them meaning. I'm impressed that you follow a more personal path to God. Your Jihad is the struggle within yourself for greater understanding of God and yourself, the struggle to better yourself. That Jihad is the important one, not the Jihad against Kuffar.

People usually judge Islam taking the acts of a bunch of crazy terrorists running their own agendas by the name of Islam but you don't.

For 5 years I have studied Islam trying to understand what motivates radical Islam. I have been searching for hope that we can find a way to live together in peace. You bring me hope that all is not lost and I thank you. I don't want the great battle of armageddon to happen, but unless the radicals on ALL sides are defeated, I fear it will happen eventually.

Allah-Mak (May God take you safely and peacefully) my friend!

 

[Adjuster]

Amd, don't be offended by this, but I'm going to say what I believe to be true.

What I see and hear, and have experienced in my life is that there are good and bad people everywhere in this world.

A good person is a good person no matter what they have strong feelings about religion wise.

Here is where things fall apart right now. (And I'm not saying that in the past, the Christian's were any better.)

Right now, the faith of Islam has no strong voice for peace. It does however have many strong voices and governments for violence and distruction, and the teaching of hate.

I don't doubt there are many millions of good Muslims around the world who love peace, and do not belive the things they are being told in the Mosque's by the Imam's and Mullah's.

I belive there are very few Imam's and Mullah's preaching love and tolerance, and many more preaching hate and war.

If you would like examples, just look at what happened when the Saudi Islamic Terrorists attacked the USA. The people of Islam cheered, and passed out candy to the children, and danced in the streets.

Now, do I think that ALL of Islam cheered? No, of course not, but the vast majority of the people of Islam were happy that "The great satan" was attacked. And you have to be blind if you don't see them calling those Terrorists hero's in the Mosques around the world.

If you don't support Terrorism, and the use of Islam as a conduit for hate and war, do not pay any more money to Islam untill it changes it's ways. Help educate your friends to do the same.

Let your leaders know you don't support their use of your religion in this manner. (Just don't get killed doing it my friend.)

Inshallah.