Religion rant (if easily offended, should probably not enter)

[Facime]

Hey Weezl, I'm not trying to attack your views here, please don't take this question as that. Just let me ask, if there was a possibility that you could spend eternity in a place so beautiful you can't even think it now, without pain, no suffering, with a new body, but retaining your knowlage and spirit, wouldn't that be better than just... I don't know, ending?

I dont think I ever said we just end. And in energy form...it would be just like you described...no pain, no suffering...just leave out the body part and we are in agreement.

 

[SupraDerk]

Pie, This is all good information, however, it doesn't prove that Evolution exists either. There has never been a documented case where male and female beings split off from their type to form an entirely new type of being. I know this is extreme, but it's an example. A dog has never had a baby with a cat and made a Dat or a Cog, then continued to mate and make other Dats and Cogs.

I remember a story where they were trying to mutate a fly. They actually suceeded in doing so, and the fly came out with missformed wings, and it couldn't fly. They then tried to say that this was evolution. However, that fly's offspring came out normal, with no deformaties.

They have never proven evolution. All they have tried to do is come up with bones and other things to try and find a "missing link". In no way has documentation been found, or made that shows we could have been around for Billions of years.

When I think of evolution I don't think of cross breading. Something more along the lines of this Modern Evolution synthesis

And again, if you look to Quantum Mechanics, General Relativity and something like the M-Theory, it can simulate the universe from time = 0 up until today incredibly accurately. Makes for a convincing argument. Is it true? Maybe. But it can account for the time elapsed, can account for the position of galaxies relative to us and can account for the physical and chemical makeup of the universe today.

Science provides my restless minds with many answers that religion just cannot, hehe

 

[cadman]

your thinking way too dimentionally.

Seperating the spirit from the body is well thought out however and its exaxtly what I was trying to get across. I think you just went one step too far when you inferred another dimension or "world". Whats wrong with this one? I simply dont have a problem with "spirit" staying right here.

Let me try this analogy on ya...natural gas is matter that is easily converted into energy. You cant see it, you cant touch it, and in its natural form you cant smell it, but its still there right? Light a match and you will know its there. Now this gas has been converted to energy. Its not in a different dimension or different world is it? Once the heat of the explosion dissipates you cant feel it anymore either. But by the Law of Conservation we know that it still exists.

It is an interesting idea, and I have no problem believing that our spirits are actually part of this world. I just don't think they are part of this world's energy. Spirits aren't effected by walls, or other objects. They walk through them, unchanged. Some people claim to be able to see them. I think that in this way, your spirit is not like a gas, because it is not molecular. (sp?) If it were part of the energies of earth, it could be effected by those energies. I don't think it can be. Gravity is an effect on everything, and yet not on a spirit. Magnets actually can effect non-metalic material. They made a field so strong it levetated a frog. I see these effects, and all the energies, and I don't see how it effects our spirits. (but hey, I'm just thinking outloud here, so I'm not saying you're right or your wrong, just talking about it, you know?)

I believe your spirit is something seperate from all of this around us that we see. But we are able to experience what we see and do and our spirit is connected with our bodies in such a way as to give us reasoning and a sense of who we are.

 

[SupraDerk]

I dont think I ever said we just end. And in energy form...it would be just like you described...no pain, no suffering...just leave out the body part and we are in agreement.

Yep, no pain...no suffering

 

[cadman]

I dont think I ever said we just end. And in energy form...it would be just like you described...no pain, no suffering...just leave out the body part and we are in agreement.

Ok, now let me ask you this. (Great answer by the way!) What is the worst thing that would happen, in your mind, if you did become a Christian? Now you have all of the good things you believe, and a promiss of Heaven after you die. So, even if God doesn't exist, you are in no worse shape than you were before.

Just throwing that out.

 

[SupraDerk]

It is an interesting idea, and I have no problem believing that our spirits are actually part of this world. I just don't think they are part of this world's energy. Spirits aren't effected by walls, or other objects. They walk through them, unchanged. Some people claim to be able to see them. I think that in this way, your spirit is not like a gas, because it is not molecular. (sp?) If it were part of the energies of earth, it could be effected by those energies. I don't think it can be. Gravity is an effect on everything, and yet not on a spirit. Magnets actually can effect non-metalic material. They made a field so strong it levetated a frog. I see these effects, and all the energies, and I don't see how it effects our spirits. (but hey, I'm just thinking outloud here, so I'm not saying you're right or your wrong, just talking about it, you know?)

I believe your spirit is something seperate from all of this around us that we see. But we are able to experience what we see and do and our spirit is connected with our bodies in such a way as to give us reasoning and a sense of who we are.

Diamagnetism is why the frog levitated. The polar molecules of it's body became charged and opposed the magnet's magnetic field. And can you say with 100% assurance that "spirits" exist?

Also, in Quantum Mechanics, there is something...I can't remember what it's called, I have a book that talks about it, I'll have to find it. but anyways, there's something where electrons CAN travel through solid objects. It's been observed, haha. If you really want things that'll blow your mind you should check out Quantum Mechanics...it's some truly crazy stuff

 

[cadman]

Diamagnetism is why the frog levitated. The polar molecules of it's body became charged and opposed the magnet's magnetic field. And can you say with 100% assurance that "spirits" exist?

Also, in Quantum Mechanics, there is something...I can't remember what it's called, I have a book that talks about it, I'll have to find it. but anyways, there's something where electrons CAN travel through solid objects. It's been observed, haha. If you really want things that'll blow your mind you should check out Quantum Mechanics...it's some truly crazy stuff

I love that kind of stuff man. I wish I had more time to dig into it. But I heard something to where they were trying to get things to pass through solid objects. They were turning solids into a type of energy, and passing it through stuff, but they couldn't get it back into a solid

No I really can't prove spirits exist either, LOL just that we were on the subject of them.

 

[SupraDerk]

Found the book and found the name! Haha, here it is: Quantum Tunneling


I talked to my physics professor about this after I read it. And he told me that if a person were to continually walk into a wall, that eventually...with enough time. They would walk THROUGH the wall! Haha, but the amount of time needed in order for the conditions to be perfect was about the age of the universe, lol

 

[Facime]

Ok, now let me ask you this. (Great answer by the way!) What is the worst thing that would happen, in your mind, if you did become a Christian? Now you have all of the good things you believe, and a promiss of Heaven after you die. So, even if God doesn't exist, you are in no worse shape than you were before.

Just throwing that out.

I was raised Catholic. I chose just before the age of confirmation not to go forward with that. since that time I have opened my mind to all kinds of religion and come to one enduring problem with all of it. Man's fallable nature.
Spirituality is not something that comes from religion, it comes from within. I do not need a church to tell me what my spirituality should mean. Christianity is probably one of the worst organized religions on the planet (imho) in terms of displaying the fallability of man. Furthermore, accepting Jesus Christ as my personal savior just so I can "cover my bases" and have a "promise of heaven" doesnt exactly instill in me a true sense of spiritualty now does it?

If thats how you view your own spirituality (like a backup plan, just in case...) then I think you really need to do some real hard soul searching and ask yourself is that true belief?

 

[Furball]

Well it makes sense and yet it is flawed. You use the military as an example of "headship" as you call it. Ask any officer if his subordinates are allowed to think even for a second that they are his equal. Equal in humanity maybe yes, but not in any way, shape or form in terms of subserviance. It's an officers DUTY to command his men. Its a soldiers DUTY to obey that order. In what way do you not see this as subservience?

And further into that point, if you can analgogize that your relationship with your girlfriend is in anyway even remotely analogous with the military then I feel sorry for your girlfriend, and please dont take this as any kind of insult, but I also feel sorry for you. Your girlfriend is gonna wake up one day and decide she no longer wants to be under your "headship" and trust me, its not gonna be pretty.

I dont want to belabor this point, but I really think you've shown me just exactly where you see women fitting into your belief system, and its not the first time I've heard it. When I was growing up in a very strict Catholic household I was taught that wives were to "honor and obey". This rational was pretty much the norm back in the 50's and 60's. Guess what? It doesnt fly today! My mother and father sleep in seperate rooms and have now for years. They cant divorce because thats a "sin" niether of them are willing to commit. So they soldier on (yes the reference was intended) in a loveless marriage and for them..."obey" is not really an issue anymore.

Im guessing you met your wife through your church?

I appreciate your concern Weazel.

I do realize the major flaws in the military analogy and do not want to imply my relatiopship is anything like that. My girlfriend will be here later and I'm sure would be fine with answering any questions you might have. She is one of the strongest, most independent, yet totally loving woman I know, and in no way is "commanded around by me" or anything. It is much like cadman said. The relationship should be totally mutual. You love her completely so are the best you can possibly be for her, and she will do the same for you. No worries on either side. My parents hold the same view as me and have been lovingly married for 30 years now. They still make riskay comments to one another and no fire has gone out. Still sleep and do many other things in the same bed- only a double size I might add so they stay close. My mom feels absolutely no subservience and my dad is no commanding officer. But she recognizes Him as head of the household. There's nothing wrong with that and that is not just my opinion. Its what it says in the Bible. It is not an ego thing. I think my girlfriend is far more perfect and deserving than myself, and is only with humility that I would accept the RESPONSIBILITY of being a good husband for her / head of the household.

Oh yeah, and I met her at school

 

[figgie]

Diamagnetism is why the frog levitated. The polar molecules of it's body became charged and opposed the magnet's magnetic field. And can you say with 100% assurance that "spirits" exist?

Also, in Quantum Mechanics, there is something...I can't remember what it's called, I have a book that talks about it, I'll have to find it. but anyways, there's something where electrons CAN travel through solid objects. It's been observed, haha. If you really want things that'll blow your mind you should check out Quantum Mechanics...it's some truly crazy stuff

quantum tunneling

ninjaedit:

bah you found it.

part of quantum physics. Quantum physics i like to explain is about possibilities or you can look at it as contradictions

it is neither here or there. It can be up and down and the same time. it can be going or coming.

start throwing in M-theory and all the wacky stuff and becomes even more fun. BTW next year... next year is going to either make or break physics as we know it. Either the Higgs boson is found and new doors are opened or it is not and all the work we have in the standard model just went to shit!!

 

[Facime]

I appreciate your concern Weazel.

I do realize the major flaws in the military analogy and do not want to imply my relatiopship is anything like that. My girlfriend will be here later and I'm sure would be fine with answering any questions you might have. She is one of the strongest, most independent, yet totally loving woman I know, and in no way is "commanded around by me" or anything. It is much like cadman said. The relationship should be totally mutual. You love her completely so are the best you can possibly be for her, and she will do the same for you. No worries on either side. My parents hold the same view as me and have been lovingly married for 30 years now. They still make riskay comments to one another and no fire has gone out. Still sleep and do many other things in the same bed- only a double size I might add so they stay close. My mom feels absolutely no subservience and my dad is no commanding officer. But she recognizes Him as head of the household. There's nothing wrong with that and that is not just my opinion. Its what it says in the Bible. It is not an ego thing. I think my girlfriend is far more perfect and deserving than myself, and is only with humility that I would accept the RESPONSIBILITY of being a good husband for her / head of the household.

Oh yeah, and I met her at school

believe me Ive heard it all before (having been raised the same way) but as mankind evolves (mentally and spiritually) it becomes apparent that while somethings work for the few they do ont work for the many, and thus get changed. (going back to your military analogy, its why women are now allowed to serve in forward combat zones). Christianity comes from a patriarchal standpoint, and so of course the "rules" will always favor leaving a man in the position power. Ever wonder why the gospel according to Mary was left out of the bible?

But once again I want to reitterate that if it works for you, thats great. I really do hope that your marriage is successful and that you two grow old happily together. The road you are choosing is not going to be an easy one for either of you. Perhaps your common faith will be enough. Either way, I wish you peace.

 

[SupraDerk]

BTW next year... next year is going to either make or break physics as we know it. Either the Higgs boson is found and new doors are opened or it is not and all the work we have in the standard model just went to shit!!

Haha, this is the kind of stuff that gets me all excited!

Why don't we ever hear about THIS stuff on the news?! lol



And yeah, the M-Theory and Quantum Physics = CRAZY! But SOOOOO freaking interesting at the same time Definitely hard stuff to try and conceptualize sometimes :naughty:

 

[3p141592654]

That's cross breeding, and cannot happen because the sperm of one species does not posses the correct code to penetrate the egg wall of another species.

Evolution is not revolution! For most creatures, it takes time, far more time than the span of a human life, or even many lives. It is gradual changes over many hundreds of generations. You will not see a dog turn into a cat in your lifetime, and TOE does not predict that either.

Have you ever wondered why the human genome is full of DNA that is not used, in effect abandoned? I would hardly expect that to be the outcome of precise creation by the almighty. With TOE, it is expected.

Pie, This is all good information, however, it doesn't prove that Evolution exists either. There has never been a documented case where male and female beings split off from their type to form an entirely new type of being. I know this is extreme, but it's an example. A dog has never had a baby with a cat and made a Dat or a Cog, then continued to mate and make other Dats and Cogs.

I remember a story where they were trying to mutate a fly. They actually suceeded in doing so, and the fly came out with missformed wings, and it couldn't fly. They then tried to say that this was evolution. However, that fly's offspring came out normal, with no deformaties.

They have never proven evolution. All they have tried to do is come up with bones and other things to try and find a "missing link". In no way has documentation been found, or made that shows we could have been around for Billions of years.

 

[Supracentral]

They have never proven evolution. All they have tried to do is come up with bones and other things to try and find a "missing link". In no way has documentation been found, or made that shows we could have been around for Billions of years.

Been staying out of this one, but I'd like to reply to this part.

Modern evolutionary theory states that all organisms are always in transition. There is no "missing link" per se, and modern theory does not endorse or support it. However it's still pretty common for someone with an anti-evolution bias to state that there no one has ever found a transitional fossil or "missing link".

Unfortunately this statement is based in a flawed understanding of what a transitional feature would be on one of those fossils.

Think about the wildly improbable circumstances required for the natural preservation of the corpse of an organic lifeform. Only a miniscule percentage of all life that has died on this planet has ever been preserved as a fossil. Even with that improbable circumstance, there have been quite a few fossils located over the years that clearly show evolution in progress.

For example:

Fish to Amphibians
Tiktaalik roseae
Osteolepis
Eusthenopteron
Panderichthys
Elginerpeton
Obruchevichthys
Hynerpeton
Tulerpeton
Acanthostega
Ichthyostega
Pederpes finneyae
Eryops

Amphibians to Amniotes (early reptiles)
Proterogyrinus
Limnoscelis
Tseajaia
Solenodonsaurus
Hylonomus
Paleothyris

Synapsid reptiles to mammals
Protoclepsydrops
Clepsydrops
Dimetrodon
Procynosuchus

Diapsid reptiles to birds
Yixianosaurus
Pedopenna
Archeopteryx
Changchengornis
Confuciusornis
Ichthyornis

Evolution of whales
Pakicetus
Ambulocetus
Artiocetus
Dorudon
Basilosaurus
Eurhinodelphis
Mammalodon

Evolution of the horse
Hyracotherium
Mesohippus
Parahippus
Merychippus
Pliohippus
Equus

Non-human apes to modern humans
Ardipithecus
Australopithecus
Homo habilis
Homo erectus

This is by no means a complete list, but you get the idea. Your statement is misleading at best, and an outright lie at it's worst.

We've got MANY samples of evolution in progress, we just don't have ALL the samples. It seems like you're looking for some bizzarre 1/2 mutant creature. And it seems your saying if we don't have them all, then there's no proof of any mutation over time. That sounds somewhat silly in light of the evidence.

Do a little more research on this topic and then come back and tell us if you think your statements are still true.

 

[Facime]

Well posted SC...but I think I might be able to field this one in the wake of no creationist responce.

The fossile records do not prove that any of the preceeding species in fact evolved to the next species. The timeline of their existence would be good evidence of that, ....but....hmmm...well I have no way to refute the timeline.

Lets see, geological timeline established by the layering of strata, carbon dating, measurable decay of elements, erosion and geological upheaval all taken into account....YEP! Im stumped as to how that can occure and still not be proof of evolution. Im afraid Im nnot doing a very good job of speaking for the creationists.


Quite frankly, Im mad at myself for not bringing up the fossil record sooner in this thread...Now I want to see the fossil record of Adam and Eve...and all who they "begat".

 

[DreamerTheresa]

Dude, all dogs go to heaven...everyone knows that. Disney reminded us of that back in the 80s.

Actually, that was Don Bluth.

 

[mkiiSupraMan18]

Wow... I only made it from page 1-24, but will come back for the rest.

Anyway, i had a few questions for everyone... blievers and non:

1) Can you believe in God... but completely disagree w/ a lot of the "magic" of the bible? I get the feeling something is watching over me, but I'm too "realistic" to believe some of the better 'stories' of the bible.

2) Why is it that hell is ALWAYS brought up w/ Christians and then 'but if everyone would follow the bible it would be this pimptastic place w/o BHGs and more boost than you could ever spool" What the heck is wrong with being a good person JUST to be a good person rather than having the "I'd rather be safe than sorry cause I don't want to burn in hell" mentality?

-2a- Although not a super reliable source, but I was watching something on the discovery or the history channel talking about how only certain books were put in the bible because they were the ones that scared people into believing, or w/e... anyway, it said that one of the books that was left out said that hell was NOT for eternity, but just a temporary thing. Again, Discovery/History... so I dunno


I know there's a LOT of other questions I have, but none of them are coming to me.

OK, I lied...

3) How does one go about choosing the 'right' religion? Should I stay true to my baptist background... or should I become a catholic, or a mormon (because SouthPark showed that scene in hell that said they were teh winnarz), a muslim..... you get the point....

4) I read this from someones post in a thread a LONG time ago it seems and it's always kind of stuck w/ me... this is just the cliffs i can recall...
Basically it was:
People have always had gods, they gave them up w/ they were proved wrong... sun god given up because they figured out they didn't have to praise it for the sun to come up... listed other good examples...
Went on to say how the 'church' is always changing to suite the people... don't remember any examples off the top of my head...

And not sure if that post lead me to think about this...

But what would happen if we found life on another planet? Would that disprove that God did all of this? I can remember reading that asteroids/comets (whichever WONT kill us) may have brought the first forms of life and the water on the Earth here... Anyway, I'm rambling... So what would life on another planet mean? Coincidence or what?



TONS of interesting points from both sides. Deffinitely made my 'work day' go by fast. And no fighting up to page 24-ish!1!

Oh, and I love how people who aren't real followers want to bring their kids up in a "church environment" when they don't attend church regularly themselves... THAT is utterly retarded.

 

[SupraDerk]

Wow... I only made it from page 1-24, but will come back for the rest.

Anyway, i had a few questions for everyone... blievers and non:

1) Can you believe in God... but completely disagree w/ a lot of the "magic" of the bible? I get the feeling something is watching over me, but I'm too "realistic" to believe some of the better 'stories' of the bible.

2) Why is it that hell is ALWAYS brought up w/ Christians and then 'but if everyone would follow the bible it would be this pimptastic place w/o BHGs and more boost than you could ever spool" What the heck is wrong with being a good person JUST to be a good person rather than having the "I'd rather be safe than sorry cause I don't want to burn in hell" mentality?

-2a- Although not a super reliable source, but I was watching something on the discovery or the history channel talking about how only certain books were put in the bible because they were the ones that scared people into believing, or w/e... anyway, it said that one of the books that was left out said that hell was NOT for eternity, but just a temporary thing. Again, Discovery/History... so I dunno


I know there's a LOT of other questions I have, but none of them are coming to me.

OK, I lied...

3) How does one go about choosing the 'right' religion? Should I stay true to my baptist background... or should I become a catholic, or a mormon (because SouthPark showed that scene in hell that said they were teh winnarz), a muslim..... you get the point....

4) I read this from someones post in a thread a LONG time ago it seems and it's always kind of stuck w/ me... this is just the cliffs i can recall...
Basically it was:
People have always had gods, they gave them up w/ they were proved wrong... sun god given up because they figured out they didn't have to praise it for the sun to come up... listed other good examples...
Went on to say how the 'church' is always changing to suite the people... don't remember any examples off the top of my head...

And not sure if that post lead me to think about this...

But what would happen if we found life on another planet? Would that disprove that God did all of this? I can remember reading that asteroids/comets (whichever WONT kill us) may have brought the first forms of life and the water on the Earth here... Anyway, I'm rambling... So what would life on another planet mean? Coincidence or what?



TONS of interesting points from both sides. Deffinitely made my 'work day' go by fast. And no fighting up to page 24-ish!1!

Oh, and I love how people who aren't real followers want to bring their kids up in a "church environment" when they don't attend church regularly themselves... THAT is utterly retarded.

1) Agnostic

2) Nothing wrong with being a good person to be a good person. I believe that ANYONE can be a good person, with or without religion. I think people who think the bible is the only place where people can find morals are completely wrong, BUT on the other hand, I do think that you CAN find morals in the bible. Just don't take what the bible has to say literally

3) I'd say whatever floats your boat! Haha, I was brought up baptist, I even got baptized, but I only did it because that's what everyone (in the church and in my family) said I should do. Then I thought about a lot of stuff and came to the conclusion that religion isn't for me and I don't believe pretty much anything it says. Not to say that religion is wrong, but it doesn't even come close to answering the questions I have, therefore I don't put any kind of faith in it

4) I think if we found life on Mars the amount of questions we have would grow enourmously! Such as... if God created everything for man to rule over...why did he create life on other planets then?

 

[encomiast]

Reading the comments about perfect things created by god, a nice little part of Douglas Adam's "A Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" came to my mind:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish [replace by proteine, human brain, whatever] is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

:biglaugh:
This book/movie generally contains some very funny, yet fascinating ideas on religion, life, the universe and everything.