Opps, left out head dowels. Problems?
- Thread starter 89_turborunner
- Start date
yeah the good news is they are only locating pins. The bad news is you most likely tightened down the head bolts on a misaligned head. But the better news is you choose to do it right or do it over.
I'm surprised anyone needing to ask this question in the first place would be rebuilding engines. Not a good sign.
jetjock said:
gotta learn sometime, at least he asked, and then tore it back down and did it right..those are hard lessons..
i think i'll start a stupid mistakes thread in the general section..
Isn't 120 ft-lb a bit much on ARP Studs????? I will know for sure when I get ready to do mine, but I don't remember seeing numbers that high before.
if the head is togheter I don't really think it matters because the bolts/ studs will keep it centered.
ForcedTorque said:
It sure is...since he used motor oil, the ARP stud torque spec is 105 ft/lbs...it's 81 ft/lbs w/ moly. The torque spec should not be exceeded.
dav_dman said:
Mistakes are when you know what you're doing and screw up. That's not the same as "how can two pins locate something better than 14 bolts" and "if the head is together the bolts will keep it centered".
Time and again I see guys deep into doing stuff when they don't know how precision things are manufactured and assembled. Worse, they don't know they don't know. Such folks should not be building engines without experienced help. In this case he had the foresight to ask but in the words of Harry Callahan "a mans got to know his limitations". Too often I see people here who don't.
jdub said:
studs into block was as called for ----- "HAND TIGHT ONLY"
nuts onto studs 80ft/lb broke to 5 incriments as to not warp anything
Zach said:
Excellent, look at teh second paragraph. Now go read my first post. HE ANSWERED MY QUESTION. Why would I need the dowels? They more accurately locate the head. THANKS!
jetjock said:
What did this contribute to the thread? Thanks for your uninformed analysis of my abilities.
ma70t said:
Look! another answer... I asked about the coating ater the head is torqued down. Thanks.
mkIIIman089 said:
EVERYONE here told me to put them in...except one guy. and then another after this post of yours. And I spoke with quite a few people outside of SM, and that was why I installed some more parts that I could EASILY leave on while I replaced the dowels. THis was so I could accomplish some more while i gathered more info.
nosechunks said:
This one is REALLY worth quoting. Not only did he answer a question I had, but he accurately cited his own experience which is extremely pertinent to my situation. Fantastic.
jdub said:
ARP changed the specs, here is a copy of the sheet
mkIIIman089 said:
Same as your last post, my reply is above (RE: not EVERYONE is on SM....etc)
jetjock said:
WOW! Another brilliant post of how dumb people are!(referring to the poeple you are describing here). Thanks for categorizing me. I have done quite a few automotive projects; however, this is not a pissing contest, so i will not list them. My areas of expertise prior to this engine project were limited to steering/suspension systems, manual transmissions, and electrical systems. Now I am learing how to rebuild an engine.
EDIT: I would have greatly appreciated some experianced help while rebuilding this engine. The only guy I knew that had rebiult many engines is not real thorough. He said F%&* the dowels, run it without them. I didn't listen to him.
veedubin said:
See above for torque spec. And I did tighten them into the block by hand, then the nuts 20 lb*ft at a time, all the way to spec.
Last edited:
Wow!!!! Did you really just piss off JDub and Jet Jock in one post??????????? I hope your questions don't get any more technical, and you need good help.
jdub said:Then they changed the spec...since you don't need any help on this car, good luck.
I edited my last post. I didn't mean to direct any anger your way. Clearly the torque spec you quoted was correct before.
ForcedTorque said:
well jetjock wasn't contributing, he was just flaming.
And I edited my post after I realised i offended Jdub (whom I have seen in many threads, usually posting quite useful stuff).
Last edited:
JustAnotherVictim
Supramania Contributor
Amuses me too, especially at how easily bruised the youthful ego is.
No, he didn't piss me off. My intent wasn't to flame him either. I was only pointing out what I see time and again here. I understand we all have to start somewhere but rarely is learning something on your own wise and this especially isn't. It's more complicated than the other stuff and by his own admission he hasn't experience in it. That usually ends up down the road as another sob story and the car gets all the blame. This place is filled with such threads. The other problem I notice here is many haven't learned how to learn. They should work on that.
No, he didn't piss me off. My intent wasn't to flame him either. I was only pointing out what I see time and again here. I understand we all have to start somewhere but rarely is learning something on your own wise and this especially isn't. It's more complicated than the other stuff and by his own admission he hasn't experience in it. That usually ends up down the road as another sob story and the car gets all the blame. This place is filled with such threads. The other problem I notice here is many haven't learned how to learn. They should work on that.
Ok...the new ARP spec for the studs was news to me. I wonder if they changed the bolt spec as well?
Since you have not heat cycled the motor and have placed the dowels, here's a few things to consider:
- The front timing plate needs to be machined as to be at or slightly below the block deck.
- There are two locations on the same timing plate for RTV sealant, to be applied prior to placing the MHG on the block deck...the locations are in the TRSM. If this is not done, an oil leak will result.
- Closely inspect the big banjo fitting at the rear of the head for corrosion...replace as required. Definitely replace the 90 deg rubber hose that attaches to it.
- Check all valve clearances with the motor on the stand. Much easier to do with the engine out of the car if you have to re-shim.
- Helicoiling the exhaust manifold stud holes and using new studs is an excellent idea. These have a bad habit of stripping and the helicoils will allow 40 ft/lbs of torque to keep an exhaust leak from happening due to the nuts loosening up from heat expansion. Easy to do on an engine stand...not easy in the car.
- Toyota changed the exhaust manifold gasket to a type of multi-layer steel. It's much better than the older style.
- There is also a torque pattern for the cams in the TRSM. The cam caps are labeled "I1", "E1", etc..."I" for intake and "E" for exhaust. Make sure they are in order from the #1 cylinder and on the correct side.
- For ARP fasteners to be torqued properly using the torque wrench method, several tightening/loosening cycles are required prior to final torque. From ARP's tech page on fastener installation:
"The friction factor changes from one application to the next. That is, the friction is at its highest value when the fastener is first tightened. Each additional time the fastener is torqued and loosened, this value gets smaller. Eventually the friction levels out and becomes constant for all following repetitions. Therefore, new fasteners should be tightened and loosened through several cycles before applying final torque. The number of times depends on the lubricant. For all situations where ARP lubricants are used, five cycles are required before final torquing."
This is even more important when using motor oil due to the higher friction coefficient with that lube.
Since you have not heat cycled the motor and have placed the dowels, here's a few things to consider:
- The front timing plate needs to be machined as to be at or slightly below the block deck.
- There are two locations on the same timing plate for RTV sealant, to be applied prior to placing the MHG on the block deck...the locations are in the TRSM. If this is not done, an oil leak will result.
- Closely inspect the big banjo fitting at the rear of the head for corrosion...replace as required. Definitely replace the 90 deg rubber hose that attaches to it.
- Check all valve clearances with the motor on the stand. Much easier to do with the engine out of the car if you have to re-shim.
- Helicoiling the exhaust manifold stud holes and using new studs is an excellent idea. These have a bad habit of stripping and the helicoils will allow 40 ft/lbs of torque to keep an exhaust leak from happening due to the nuts loosening up from heat expansion. Easy to do on an engine stand...not easy in the car.
- Toyota changed the exhaust manifold gasket to a type of multi-layer steel. It's much better than the older style.
- There is also a torque pattern for the cams in the TRSM. The cam caps are labeled "I1", "E1", etc..."I" for intake and "E" for exhaust. Make sure they are in order from the #1 cylinder and on the correct side.
- For ARP fasteners to be torqued properly using the torque wrench method, several tightening/loosening cycles are required prior to final torque. From ARP's tech page on fastener installation:
"The friction factor changes from one application to the next. That is, the friction is at its highest value when the fastener is first tightened. Each additional time the fastener is torqued and loosened, this value gets smaller. Eventually the friction levels out and becomes constant for all following repetitions. Therefore, new fasteners should be tightened and loosened through several cycles before applying final torque. The number of times depends on the lubricant. For all situations where ARP lubricants are used, five cycles are required before final torquing."
This is even more important when using motor oil due to the higher friction coefficient with that lube.
jdub said:
I took care of pretty much every thing on that list. My big banjo bolt actually deformed a little while i was removing it, so I need a new one. Probably dealer only?
And for the timing cover- I had it machined, and I applied RTV to the "top" section where it meets the head. I also used the gasket that came in my kit where it mates to the block, and of course I applied RTV to the oil pan before I installed it on the lower portion of the timing cover. Does that cover it?
And why does oil leak if you do not put RTV where the head meets the timing cover?
I heli-coiled the three studs holes that were in bad shape. If I have any issues, I plan to get the larger stud kit from.... well I forget their name, but i havea link saved. drift motion?
WHy didn't ARP put that kind of instruction in the packaging of the studs?
EDIT: Don't worry JetJock, my ego isn't bruised
JustAnotherVictim
Supramania Contributor
Recall seeing 105ft/lbs for the oil torque spec as well.
Wasn't there a torque difference using studs and bolts?
Wasn't there a torque difference using studs and bolts?