anything good enought for a F22 raptor is good enought for my car
It brings my dads "its perfect but it will have to do" comment to mind
It brings my dads "its perfect but it will have to do" comment to mind
Oil: Royal Purple
- Thread starter JesseH
- Start date
oh i didnt say anybody said it was bad just sayin ive never had a problem with it and i choose to run that thick because of the heat down here in summer time it can get a oil VERY hot and break it down quite easily.
SupaMan said:
Did you read this thread? Because if you did, you're not getting it...a 50W multigrade oil does not resist breakdown due to heat oxidation better than a 30W multigrade. It's the formulation of the oil and the base stock that's what's counts in that department...you want a Group IV or V oil if heat is your concern. The highest I would ever run is a 10W-40 and that's on a motor with high mileage with bearings showing their age with wear. If you want to help with heat, upgrade your oil cooler.
The "50W weight oil is better" is a myth. It comes from the days when bearing clearances were not a tight as they are on a modern engine and filtration was not a good either. A 50W oil is good at enveloping grit. It also does a great job of sealing and cushioning, which are two important functions of all motor oils (much more 40 years ago than today). The aluminum piston alloys in use circa 1960 had high expansion rates and poor high temperature strength. Accordingly, they needed to be surrounded by thick oil, to seal combustion gas trying to blow past the generous clearances...and to keep them from rattling in their bores. The thicker oil also encased particular contaminants and helped prevent engine wear in higher clearance bearings. Neither of these are factors in a modern engine today.
You may intend to protect the bearings on your motor with the thicker oil. But the increased oil viscosity, and resulting reduction of flow, can overheat the bearing. The metals used in plain bearings...copper, lead, and aluminum...typically lose half their ambient temperature strength at 200 degrees F. Copper-lead bearings are stressed near their elastic limit at redline crank speeds, even with crankcase oil temperatures below 250 degrees F. Pour in some thick oil, or an oil additive viscosity index improver, and you'll reduce the bearing's oil flow which will make it hotter and may cause it to fail over time.
The "50W is better" myth is a carry over from 40 years ago...it's perpetuated by word of mouth across generations of mechanics. It has no basis in reality on a modern, tight tolerance motor. Want to help your engine by keeping the bearing cool and extend it's life? Use an oil that flows, especially at cold start. Any good Group III oil will do as long as you change it at 5,000 mile intervals. A true synthetic (Group IV or V) is better...especially for a turbo motor and you can extend your change interval to the 8,000 mile point. The key is good cooling and a good filter.
BTW - I live in Phoenix...gets a bit hotter than where you are (I've lived in South FL too)...to the tune of a 115-118 deg F in the summer and I run a 0W-30. This spring, I'm gonna switch to a 5W-30, 100% ester basestock oil.
Damn...wrote another essay ::dead horse::
You pwn Jdub! I know we've already said that the German Castrol 0W-30 is very good, what about Royal Purple 5W-30? I just realized that they had that oil. They also have SAE 30, but I don't think that would be good for cold start ups, as it's 30 the whole time, right?
BTW, I'm asking about Royal Purple because I've been a fan from the first time I used it. I changed to synthetic for the first time with that oil, ran 10W-30, and my car was WAY better, ran more efficient, and gave me about 24-25 MPG instead of the 21-22 I'm getting with my Q Fully Synthetic.
BTW, I'm asking about Royal Purple because I've been a fan from the first time I used it. I changed to synthetic for the first time with that oil, ran 10W-30, and my car was WAY better, ran more efficient, and gave me about 24-25 MPG instead of the 21-22 I'm getting with my Q Fully Synthetic.
Royal Purple 10W-30, RP Trans Fluid, RP Gear oil in 87T(car in avtar) My girl's car runs 20-50 Castrol GTX, in an 86.5 NA. Her car has really high oil pressure(7KG/cm2). I am not sure what that is in Imperial(US). This is on a stock engine with a new oil sender too. Thanks jdub, I think I want to change to synthetic too, in that car. Btw, what are some of the group IV/V synthetic oils you are talking of?
GotToyota? said:
Lighter weight oils will help fuel economy...not a huge difference, but with gas prices the way they are every little bit helps. Here's an interesting article concerning Toyota's take on it:
http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000463014.cfm?x=b5JKv2G,b38lLn1r
Royal Purple is a good oil...the 5W-30 would work well for ya. I just tend to go for "bang for the buck" when I choose an oil. Royal Purple is 100% synthetic. Their line of street oils and XPR line of racing oils are synthetic products made with Group IV and Group V base stocks...Royal Purple does not use any Group III hydrocracked base stock in the production of their oils. The XPR product has more select base stocks and a more robust anti-wear package and would give higher performance, but it is not an API Licensed product like their street oils.
Don't run a straight 30W...the multigrade is better for flow. The only time I will run a straight 30W is when breaking in a motor. Here's some basics on motor oil from Valvoline:
http://www.valvoline.com/carcare/articleviewer.asp?pg=ccr20040601ov&cccid=2&scccid=2
canadianbacon said:
Dude...that oil pressure is really high. To convert multiply 7 x 14.223 = 99.56 psi. That 20W-50 needs to be drained ASAP
Amsoil and Redline oils are primarily ester (Group V...POE) based, Royal Purple is a PAO/ester (Group IV & V) blend, German Castrol is a PAO (Group IV). Mobile 1 was also a PAO oil with a touch of ester...however, it appears that Exxon has gone to the dark side and is using a Group III hydrocracked mineral oil as a base stock to save money...like thay need to considering the profits that company has posted lately.
Cool then. I'll give the German Castrol a try, I've wanted to see how it does anyways. It would be fine in the cold weather, right?
-Matt
-Matt
donnys90T said:
Yeah...I was wondering about that too. The technology to ID the base stock is tricky...how did you get the confirmation on the Mobile 1?
BTW - JetJock let me know that Pennzoil Platinum has switched to a Group III hydrocracked oil as well...this is BS...you can't look at the label on a bottle of oil in the US and trust it to be a synthetic oil or not. You friggin have to dig to figure it out :3d_frown:
JetJock warned me about preaching about oil...he was right...feels like I'm shoveling sand against the tide at times. But, if it helps out some of those that choose to listen (as you said), maybe it's worthwhile
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Steven said:
Steven - you peaked my interest on Molyslip. IMO you don't want to use it...it contains MoS2 (inorganic Molybdenum DiSulphide) in a collodial suspension...it's unstable, especially at higher temperatures. Tests made with MoS2 showed that it may be quite stable when new, but with oil oxidation and the effect of temperature it starts to drop out of solution. When it does that, it can clog your oil filter in short order...that is a bad thing!
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jdub said:
Well, umm, after reading the Bitron thread I ....[looking around for flamethrower pointed this way...] I'm almost afraid to touch this keyboard....
Could you please offer the references for your comment above?
I dug around for about an hour and could find only one item that mentioned MoS2 flocculating and dropping from suspension as a result of high temperatures. It was only mentioned as a sort of theoretical possibility, not an observed fact, and it was in a 1955 paper in an American Chemical Society archive:
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/jpchax/1955/59/i09/f-pdf/f_j150531a020.pdf?sessid=2698
Everything else I came across said onset of MoS2 oxidation was between 315C and 350C, and that was for air exposure, not in engine oil loaded with antioxidant additives. 350C is hot enough to destroy the base oil and weaken aluminum pistons, so my guess is MoS2 oxidation would be the least of my troubles if my oil got that hot.
And Molyslip might not be simple MoS2 in oil; they may have some additives to keep it colloidal, I don't know.
I have run Molyslip for maybe 33 years in all three vehicles I've owned over that period. I haven't torn apart oil filters every oil change, but the couple of times I tore down the Supra filter I found essentially nothing on the paper. Yes, I know that proves nothing much.
All the literature says MoS2 does its best work under boundary lubrication conditions, ie when the oil film is partially absent and metal to metal contact can take place. This ideally should never happen, but it probably does happen on cold starts especially if an engine has been sitting long enough to really drain down. And of course little "events" do happen sometimes in built-up engines.
The main event that convinced me it was worth the cost to add the stuff, was a failure-of-lubrication incident I had years ago. I had a Datsun 240Z head (milled to within a millimeter of its life) on a Datsun 260Z block, three Weber DCOEs, headers and the lot. The cam wasn't drilled for oil like a modern one, it had instead a spray bar parallel to it, squirting straight at the cam to cam-follower pinch points. Well, somebody must have bumped that spray bar, because it came loose in its press-fit and got rotated until it sprayed the opposite way from the cam.
Maybe the cam was getting some mist, but way too little oil given the pressure from the extra heavy valve springs and the high lift cam. It started squeaking at every turn of the cam. I was pretty sure what was happening just from the sound, but I was on a highway between two work sites in the winter, blowing snow, the whole bit. So I drove it to work, then later drove it home and that night opened it up. Total drive while squeaking and clacking: about 16 miles. I fully expected to have to replace the cam, and maybe more.
I might still have photos of that cam somewhere that I could post. Only one lobe was messed up, and it had simply been reshaped about 0.005 inch, in a smooth liquidlike way. There was zero galling, everything looked glossy polished even where it was blued from frictional heat -- both cam and follower.
I pounded the spray bar back into its proper place, reset the valve lash, changed the oil (with Molyslip added again!) and ran it another 40,000 miles until the next engine rebuild. Cam-to-follower noise got smoother and quieter the longer I ran it. I was impressed.
Same thing happened when I seized a piston. That was a Nissan 280ZX motor. The rebuilder goofed, didn't get the piston clearance right, perhaps because he used highly tapered race pistons, and I think mildly seized the engine the first time it was run. Battery was dead when I got there. Engine was really stiff when I took it, would hardly turn over on the starter even boosted. What to do? I put Molyslip in as usual and babied it for months per the builder's advice, before giving it a good run. Greg, if you are reading this, you know who I'm talking about!
One good long burst on an open road, then Clunk, and then clap, clap, clap noises every turn of the crank, and mild smoking.
But the damage smoothed out and wore in over the next 20,000 miles. Oil consumption slowly came down. One of the two seized pistons is sitting in front of me on my desk, siezed rings, chipped lands and all. The skirts have polished smooth again. Not that the engine was ever quite right after that, but it not only got me home, it got through the rebuilder's warrantee period! ...and I wasn't inclined to go back there anyway.
I've run Molyslip in a manual transmission from time to time also. I like the crisper synchro shift feel. Maybe that was why I got away with a 60 mile highway drive with only a few teaspoons of oil in the tranny. The tranny eventually got so hot I had to handle the shift lever with a glove, and eventually it just wouldn't shift. Never let a dealership service your car unless you double check their work. They admitted they screwed up but wouldn't compensate me because the tranny still worked fine once it was refilled with oil. And Molyslip. That was the 260Z again.
These are the sort of events that are not supposed to happen. But if you mess around with cars long enough, they do. A lubricant that works even if the oil is gone then proves its worth. Whether it is doing anything the rest of the time under "normal" wear conditions, I don't know.
Damn...that's a good post Steven.
Go to the oil forum posted earlier in this thread and do a search for "Molyslip" in the Additive Section and you will find some of the basis I spoke of.
Moly comes in two forms (maybe more)...inorganic MoS2 which must be in a carrier (suspension) to flow and an organic type which is soluble in oil. Many of the oils out there use the organic moly as a friction modifier and there is no harm in using it....in fact, the Valvoline additive I mentioned in the other thread has a health dose of this type moly in it.
Without question, inorganic MoS2 is one of the best friction reducers out there. But depending on the carrier, temperature can make it fall out of suspension...that's not the same as the temperature require to oxidize MoS2. One of the threads I read over at BITOG, the guy could see a gray sludge coming out of his filter. Having said that, it could also be an isolated incident or the type of additives present in the oil he was using. I do know that this type of moly is excellent for gears...there is not near the heat generated and the friction reduction is outstanding....I can easily see why it would work well in your tranny.
I was concerned because I knew you were running it (or at least thought so) and might want to know that the potential existed for it to do this. If you've had good results with it in the oil you are using, continue to use it. Knowing my luck though, if I did...it would clog my motor up
Do a search on VSOT while you are there. Like I said, it's got quite a bit of moly in it as well and a couple other anti-wear and dispersant's as well.
Go to the oil forum posted earlier in this thread and do a search for "Molyslip" in the Additive Section and you will find some of the basis I spoke of.
Moly comes in two forms (maybe more)...inorganic MoS2 which must be in a carrier (suspension) to flow and an organic type which is soluble in oil. Many of the oils out there use the organic moly as a friction modifier and there is no harm in using it....in fact, the Valvoline additive I mentioned in the other thread has a health dose of this type moly in it.
Without question, inorganic MoS2 is one of the best friction reducers out there. But depending on the carrier, temperature can make it fall out of suspension...that's not the same as the temperature require to oxidize MoS2. One of the threads I read over at BITOG, the guy could see a gray sludge coming out of his filter. Having said that, it could also be an isolated incident or the type of additives present in the oil he was using. I do know that this type of moly is excellent for gears...there is not near the heat generated and the friction reduction is outstanding....I can easily see why it would work well in your tranny.
I was concerned because I knew you were running it (or at least thought so) and might want to know that the potential existed for it to do this. If you've had good results with it in the oil you are using, continue to use it. Knowing my luck though, if I did...it would clog my motor up
Do a search on VSOT while you are there. Like I said, it's got quite a bit of moly in it as well and a couple other anti-wear and dispersant's as well.
k then.
I get great oil pressure on cold mornings may not be like 5 below zero cold but 30-40 degrees. I have better oil pressure now than i did with the penzoil 10w30 in it, yea that could be caused by alot of things but the fact is i get very good oil pressure right now.
now onto this alum. loosing strength at 200 degrees. I dunno if you know anything about nitro RC car motors or not but they run at over 200 degrees i keep mine 220-240. Now most nitro engines are made from ABC construction (alum,brass,chrome) piston and rod are normally alum and the sleeve and other parts are brass the sleeve also is chrome plated, they also rev like mad most are 25-45k rpm they dont run oil inside the motors the fuel is oiled but its only a certain amount of oil in the fuel anywho getting back on topic these motors last for very long periods of time and they run at 220-240 anywhere from 8-30 minutes on a tank of fuel depending on the motor size and fuel tank size and right before they run out of fuel they get hotter than 240 then they die out doesnt cause them problems its a normal thing now how does alum loose half of its strength after 200 degrees? some nitro engines will even run 260-280 degrees all day long with no problems.
Im not gonna switch oil weights because of what somebody tells me I go with what works best for me. Ive lived here for 20 years and been around cars for all of them, My family has always ran 20w50 and i will keep running so because its what works for me.
Im not trying to say your wrong about anything and im not starting a fight or insaulting you Im simply stating my opinion about this.
AND one more thing, Your talking about bearing clearances not being the same as they use too, being tighter more advanced and all that jazz you were talkin about but the truth is our motors are not a year old they dont have bearing clearances of cars today made to run for thousands of miles without problems on the same oil weight they came with in the factory threw all types of weather. Im not sayin were like 1950's engines but its sure as hell not as tight as the specs in todays engines. (excluding rebuilds that were made to be that tight because it can be done now)
I get great oil pressure on cold mornings may not be like 5 below zero cold but 30-40 degrees. I have better oil pressure now than i did with the penzoil 10w30 in it, yea that could be caused by alot of things but the fact is i get very good oil pressure right now.
now onto this alum. loosing strength at 200 degrees. I dunno if you know anything about nitro RC car motors or not but they run at over 200 degrees i keep mine 220-240. Now most nitro engines are made from ABC construction (alum,brass,chrome) piston and rod are normally alum and the sleeve and other parts are brass the sleeve also is chrome plated, they also rev like mad most are 25-45k rpm they dont run oil inside the motors the fuel is oiled but its only a certain amount of oil in the fuel anywho getting back on topic these motors last for very long periods of time and they run at 220-240 anywhere from 8-30 minutes on a tank of fuel depending on the motor size and fuel tank size and right before they run out of fuel they get hotter than 240 then they die out doesnt cause them problems its a normal thing now how does alum loose half of its strength after 200 degrees? some nitro engines will even run 260-280 degrees all day long with no problems.
Im not gonna switch oil weights because of what somebody tells me I go with what works best for me. Ive lived here for 20 years and been around cars for all of them, My family has always ran 20w50 and i will keep running so because its what works for me.
Im not trying to say your wrong about anything and im not starting a fight or insaulting you Im simply stating my opinion about this.
AND one more thing, Your talking about bearing clearances not being the same as they use too, being tighter more advanced and all that jazz you were talkin about but the truth is our motors are not a year old they dont have bearing clearances of cars today made to run for thousands of miles without problems on the same oil weight they came with in the factory threw all types of weather. Im not sayin were like 1950's engines but its sure as hell not as tight as the specs in todays engines. (excluding rebuilds that were made to be that tight because it can be done now)
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Down - I'm not familiar with the M3, but I do know it's not a Supra. The oils recommended in our manual is 20 years old...lubrication technology has come an awful long way since then. Now Toyota is recommending the lighter weight oils. I didn't say the 50-60 weight oils were bad, I said they were not the best for our engine...primarily due to cold start lubrication requirements. The oil that's best for your engine will give you about 10 psi per 1,000 rpm.
This is the problem...every time I ask someone why they use this oil or that oil, the answer I get is pretty much what you said above. I've always done it and it works for me. That's fair enough and it will work...after all it is oil and that's what your engine needs for lubrication. But, if you were to take the time to have a closer look I truly believe you would change your mind. That's what I did and it's based on fact, supported with data...I believe I covered that very well earlier in this post. Read it and the links.
Keep in mind an RC car engine (it's a 2 stroke) is in no way, shape or form the same as an automobile (4 stroke) engine. Fewer moving parts, different materials, air cooled...I could go on.
Materials used in rod and main bearing is softer that the steel in the rods or crank...because of that, it will lose strength as temperature increases. It's materials engineering for the environment in which the bearing operates...in an open (or hydrodynamic) bearing, oil is replenished constantly. That's why oil cooling and oil film thickness is so important...the environment is designed to operate at 210 deg F. At that temperature, there is plenty of strength in the bearing for the load it carries; the oil provides a "cushion" to absorb shock and more importantly, reduce friction. This article explains lubrication in various parts of the motor:
http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/2/7
You're correct about the high mileage motors in a lot of our cars...that's why you hear me say running an oil that gives you 10 psi per 1,000 rpm is what you shoot for. In this case, a little thicker oil is called for...a multi-grade 40W is the best compromise IMO between ability to flow and oil film thickness. If you're going to use a thicker oil, you want to shoot for the lowest cold weight number (0W - 5W - 10w) you can find...again, for the cold start flow characteristics.
You know...I'm not trying to fight with anyone here (that is unless you're selling snake oil)...I'm actually very open to debate. I have nothing to gain (or lose) by sharing the information I have learned concerning this car. I'm not selling anything, your choice will not affect my motor at all, and if you prove me wrong...well, that means I learned something. Knowledge is something you have to seek out and I am by no means the smartest guy around. If what I post here causes you (or anyone else) to take a good hard look at what they are doing based on fact and not hearsay; that's a good thing in my book.
SupaMan said:
This is the problem...every time I ask someone why they use this oil or that oil, the answer I get is pretty much what you said above. I've always done it and it works for me. That's fair enough and it will work...after all it is oil and that's what your engine needs for lubrication. But, if you were to take the time to have a closer look I truly believe you would change your mind. That's what I did and it's based on fact, supported with data...I believe I covered that very well earlier in this post. Read it and the links.
Keep in mind an RC car engine (it's a 2 stroke) is in no way, shape or form the same as an automobile (4 stroke) engine. Fewer moving parts, different materials, air cooled...I could go on.
Materials used in rod and main bearing is softer that the steel in the rods or crank...because of that, it will lose strength as temperature increases. It's materials engineering for the environment in which the bearing operates...in an open (or hydrodynamic) bearing, oil is replenished constantly. That's why oil cooling and oil film thickness is so important...the environment is designed to operate at 210 deg F. At that temperature, there is plenty of strength in the bearing for the load it carries; the oil provides a "cushion" to absorb shock and more importantly, reduce friction. This article explains lubrication in various parts of the motor:
http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/2/7
You're correct about the high mileage motors in a lot of our cars...that's why you hear me say running an oil that gives you 10 psi per 1,000 rpm is what you shoot for. In this case, a little thicker oil is called for...a multi-grade 40W is the best compromise IMO between ability to flow and oil film thickness. If you're going to use a thicker oil, you want to shoot for the lowest cold weight number (0W - 5W - 10w) you can find...again, for the cold start flow characteristics.
You know...I'm not trying to fight with anyone here (that is unless you're selling snake oil
)...I'm actually very open to debate. I have nothing to gain (or lose) by sharing the information I have learned concerning this car. I'm not selling anything, your choice will not affect my motor at all, and if you prove me wrong...well, that means I learned something. Knowledge is something you have to seek out and I am by no means the smartest guy around. If what I post here causes you (or anyone else) to take a good hard look at what they are doing based on fact and not hearsay; that's a good thing in my book.
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oh im not tryin to fight either, Im just opening my brain and talkin. Some nitro plane motors are made to last over 100 gallons of nitro with the same construction i spoke about eariler. Their fuel doesnt have that much oil in it oil in it 20% nitro car fuel has about 18% oil in it depending on the brand plane 4 stroke nitro motors run like 60% nitro (i think im not a 4 stroke plane guy) and some plane motors stay at max rpm the whole time they are flying. But thats besides the point what im saying is, I've ran diffrent weights before and Ive locked a motor up doing so in the middle of summer here about 2 years ago i put 10w30 in my car (not the white car i own now) before i went back up to north florida i left about 2 days after i put the oil in. I was about an hour away and it locked up i had just stopped and got gas everything was fine checked the oil it was fine (habit i always do it). I dunno what caused it i didnt keep the car long enough to find out, But before i go on saying i get prolly 10 psi for every thousand rpm i need to get a real pressure gauge first because we all know the stocker cant be trusted. I know stuff is diffrent from today than it was 20 years ago. When i switched my car revved smoother,easier,faster and got better oil pressure in the cold, I mean i dunno if that sounds like a step up in oils to you or not but it does to me.
I mean its not like you HAVE to run 20w50 when you get royal purple get whatever you please but i was saying thats what i run and ive yet to blow a motor with it in the pan. I beat my lil n/a pretty hard too. :\
Some nitro plane motors are made to last over 100 gallons of nitro with the same construction i spoke about eariler. Their fuel doesnt have that much oil in it oil in it 20% nitro car fuel has about 18% oil in it depending on the brand plane 4 stroke nitro motors run like 60% nitro (i think im not a 4 stroke plane guy) and some plane motors stay at max rpm the whole time they are flying. But thats besides the point what im saying is, I've ran diffrent weights before and Ive locked a motor up doing so in the middle of summer here about 2 years ago i put 10w30 in my car (not the white car i own now) before i went back up to north florida i left about 2 days after i put the oil in. I was about an hour away and it locked up i had just stopped and got gas everything was fine checked the oil it was fine (habit i always do it). I dunno what caused it i didnt keep the car long enough to find out, But before i go on saying i get prolly 10 psi for every thousand rpm i need to get a real pressure gauge first because we all know the stocker cant be trusted. I know stuff is diffrent from today than it was 20 years ago. When i switched my car revved smoother,easier,faster and got better oil pressure in the cold, I mean i dunno if that sounds like a step up in oils to you or not but it does to me. I mean its not like you HAVE to run 20w50 when you get royal purple get whatever you please but i was saying thats what i run and ive yet to blow a motor with it in the pan.
I beat my lil n/a pretty hard too. :\
jdub said:
When there are greater diffrences between the viscosity indexes, wouldn't there also be more viscosity modifiers and less real lubricant?