My fellow americans... (Warning: US Politics)

[rakkasan]

This is not hard, yet so many agnostics and atheists will go to the ends of the earth to shove their morality down our throats, yet hammer on anybody who's morality is based in God for doing the same.

I too find that quite ironic. The "My morals are good & wholesome because they are mine & Christians are stupid for having religious based morals" absolutely baffles me because 99% of the populations morals are the same, atheist or Christian.

This thread has turned into the exact type of thread I refered to when I recommended that the Off Topic section be shut down. Add the personal attack threads in the mix & there's little left that's good that roles out of this section.

 

[ToyoHabu]

What I would like to see is not the exclusion of the values a religious person would bring to there elected office. If a person believes in the principles of the Ten Commandments and bases his morality on that and applies them to how they do business society cannot be but better for it. Those who heard a but coming here it is. When you go as far as one of our local politicians and use your office to espouse the supremacy of one religion over another you have gone to far. When in his elected office Judge Roy Moore had erected in state property a monument to Christianity and stated that the cause of Christianity would direct his actions in making judgment even when it would contradict the law we then have became victims and our rights destroyed in the name of God.

 

[ToyoHabu]

snip/

/snip
This thread has turned into the exact type of thread I refered to when I recommended that the Off Topic section be shut down. Add the personal attack threads in the mix & there's little left that's good that roles out of this section.

I cannot disagree with you more; even as rancorous as debate can get the absence of debate is more repugnant to free thinking people. I know peoples feelings can get hurt, that things said improperly do damage but these are poor reasons indeed. Even though it will not always be evident debate will always plant seeds of ideas in our minds that I believe will eventually bear fruit that is worthwhile. You must dig through a thousand tons of dirt to find that Diamond.

 

[rakkasan]

I cannot disagree with you more; even as rancorous as debate can get the absence of debate is more repugnant to free thinking people. I know peoples feelings can get hurt, that things said improperly do damage but these are poor reasons indeed. Even though it will not always be evident debate will always plant seeds of ideas in our minds that I believe will eventually bear fruit that is worthwhile. You must dig through a thousand tons of dirt to find that Diamond.

Debate is one thing, but personal attacks & insults are another. Calling God an asshole is not debating, is it?

 

[ToyoHabu]

Perhapse not, but I still dislike the reaction of throwing out the baby with the bathwater

 

[rakkasan]

Perhapse not, but I still dislike the reaction of throwing out the baby with the bathwater

I see your point, but what purpose does the off topic section serve? The forum name is Supramania, but this is the place where people battling depression comes to look for advice. That's not right, dangerous even. Throw the government conspiracies & religious debates in the mix & now you have a recipe for disaster.

I want a place where I can talk about Supras. If I feel the need to type away with my feelings on religion, sports or the government, I know that there's a million other websites I can go to to do so.

 

[MDCmotorsports]

Im just going to jump in here...

First, Mike great post. Second, you guys are doing great by not turning this into a flame war or sh!t throwing contest.

Third: What ever your washed up hippy POS college professor told your feble little minds in college, the USA was founded on Christian beliefs and values. You can read all the "official documents" that "prove" against it but they will get you no where.

You want to know why the USA and its society along with most of the countries in the world are going to hell in a hand basket?

Its simple. They have strayed away from the teachings of Christ and from the SIMPLE rules that our founding fathers built for us and for this country.

You dont' believe what Im telling you? Thats fine. Thats your right. Thats my duty to tell that Christ loves you, and his teachings are the ONLY WAY through life. I took upon this duty when I gave my life to Christ and every thing that the Bible stands for.

And no, being Christian doesn't mean perfect. Same thing with Government. I understand that either aren't perfect.

 

[Shytheed Dumas]

Well put, MDC. Thanks.

 

[SupraMario]

With time comes change, simple rules sometimes must adapt to more difficult problems.
Were as when this country was founded, it was founded on basic rules, because the population was christian, and the population was basic.
Its not so basic anymore. with growth and time comes change, now we have every race, color, religious, non religious, crazy, simple, difficult, tall, short, ect. person from around the world here in america.
Our founding fathers, prolly didnt think to much about that.
this is why we must stray from christianity, and all other religions, not everyone believes in the same god you do. Thats fine, but lets not let your god run the government.
cause if thats the case, what about other peoples god?

 

[Supracentral]

I know I said I was out of this thread, but I get the feeling that's not going to be possible. I feel LouKY has misinterpreted what I wrote, so I wish to clarify.

Supracentral, I'm not upset at your attempt to touch a nerve, but your rage toward God and Christians in particular is sobering. I hope that something changes in whatever time you have left.

I don't believe your god exists. I have no rage against a being I discard as fictious. As for my feelings towards christians in general, we'll have to delve into that a little deeper.

First of all, can we all agree that, for the most part, the teachings of Jesus Christ can be summed up in the following phrase, stolen from Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure?

"Be excellent to each other..."

That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? Treat every man as you would be treated? Be kind to others? Help those in need? Help yourself? I think that covers the bulk of it, and it's in the true spirit of those teachings. Regarless of whether or not he was a man, or the son of a god, or a ficticious character in a book. The teachings stand on thier own merit. All in all, in my opinon, what Jesus is attributed with is for the most part pretty good stuff.

With that said, I have met basically two types of people who call themselves christian. The first type follows those preachings. They treat others as they wish to be treated. They are kind and caring people who wish no ill will on others. This is by far the minorty of the christians I've met and I have no problem with them whatsoever. The world could do with a few more like them.

The second type, sadly far more common, are people who proclaim to be christians, but the vast majority of what they say relates to hatred, fear and the restriction of the rights of others. They say they follow the god of love, but they only talk about hate and the use of force to impose thier will upon others.

Realize, when you pass a law restricting liberty, you do so with the force of violence as the ultimate backing to that law. They want to remove the rights of the individual. They don't like some piece of behavior, and wish to create legal penalties for people who don't conform to thier belief system.

So any rage you feel you have sensed is directed at those who are true hypocrites, they defend and support bigotry and the restriction of liberty under the guise of 'gods will'.

This is not hard, yet so many agnostics and atheists will go to the ends of the earth to shove their morality down our throats, yet hammer on anybody who's morality is based in God for doing the same. Accept the fact that how you think society is best served is inherently based on your morality, and the stupidity of this discussion and bashing each other can finally end.

There is a major difference here, at least when it comes to Libertarian beliefs in this context. We don't want to make MORE laws and restrict more freedoms. We want fewer laws and the removal of all laws that restrict liberty when there is no threat to anothers life, liberty or property.

We won't pass a law saying that homosexuality is illegal. We also won't pass a law saying that it's legal. That choice is no threat to anothers life, liberty or property. We'll leave that up to the individual to choose his own morality and ethics.

We don't tell someone you can't smoke pot, we also don't tell them that they can. We let the individual decide. His choice is no threat to anothers life, liberty or property.

We don't tell someone you can't go to a prostitute. We also don't tell him he can. We allow him (and the prostitue) to decide as consenting adults what it is they want to do. As long as a person does not infringe on the right to anothers life, liberty or property, he can do as he sees fit.

This system allows for your beliefs as well as mine. You teach your children that going to a prostitue is wrong. You teach your children you don't want them smoking pot. Is your faith so weak that you need to remove everything from life that challenges it? Is your "truth" so obscure that people can't see it if other alternatives are allowed? Isn't the whole basis of faith "free will"? Without it you cannot have faith. Instead you get religious tyranny.

Do you feel you are so poorly equipped to teach "the right way" that the availability of the "wrong way" (from your perspective) is a threat?

In the Libertarian run government scenario, you can teach your "good word" - you can walk up to people who truly have a choice and convince them (or not) that your way is right. No laws needed. No legislation of your religious code.

See this is true freedom, true tolerance, true love of your fellow man. This is the kind of system where the only thing law does is protect the individuals rights to life, liberty and property. The character Jesus would have really liked it in my opinion, it allows free will, it allows TRUE faith, where all the temptations are there for the taking if you stray. And the choice becomes 100% yours. The only restrictions on your rights are when you cross the line and threaten anothers life, liberty or property.

As a matter of fact, we'll take it a step further, you can't threaten anothers life, liberty or property without that consenting adults permission. Men on a race track are a perfect example. They all threaten each others life and property by engaging in the acts of racing. However they have all consented to it, in the closed environment of the race track. No reason for it to be illegal. However they take it out on the public street, and threaten other peoples life and property, it becomes a crime.

Can't you see the beauty of this system? Don't you see that if you truly wish to serve your god, this is the ultimate system for you to do so within?

True free will, true self deterimination, not a crippled society of fear and hatred.

Go back over this thread, you can figure out my answer to most questions asked easily.

Nick tells me "Don't impose your persoal morrality on me" - I don't - I allow Nick the freedom to choose his own. As long as his choice doesn't threaten anothers life, liberty or property. Nick wants to restrict liberty in the name of his god - I take issue with that.

In response to my statement "But it's not MY right or YOUR right to dictate to people what they do." Nick responds with "So anything goes?" - yes, provided there is no threat to anothers life, liberty or property without thier permission.

87supraturbo19 made the statement "Supracentral so your telling us if one person doing pcp in one house minding his own business is ok, but when one other does it and goes on a rampage that its not a good idea to make drug useage illegal? " - an my answer to that is yes, it is not a good idea. The rampage is the act that is a threat to anothers life, liberty or property. The rampage is illegal.

This partcular question is a VERY good one beacause it allows us do delve deeeper into the issue. If you remove the prohibitve costs of the "war on drugs" and shift some of those resources into education about drugs, people become aware of the dangers of PCP. They are taught that this is drug that may cause a psychotic episode, and they need to take precautions if they decide to use it. If they perform illegal acts under the influence of that drug that they chose to take, they pay the price for infringing on anothers life, liberty or property. It's all about responsibilty for your actions.

Before you go off on the "see you proved my point why it shoud be illegal" - let's go back to something I said in an earlier post:

If one person in a house getting drunk minding his own business is ok, what about the guy who goes out and drives? Should we make alchohol illegal? As a matter of fact, if we make the car illegal it fixes that problem too, no? What about street racing? Should we outlaw your Supra? It's a fast car, fast cars race, right? What about a guy that runs around and stabs someone with a fork? Should we make the fork illegal?

It's all about education and the ability to make your own choices. Someone drives drunk? It's illegal - why? Because it's a threat to anothers life, liberty or property.

Race on the street? It's illegal - why? Because it's a threat to anothers life, liberty or property.

Many christians would like to make many things illegal. You have to ask why? Are those things a threat to anothers life, liberty or property? In many cases the answer to that is no. And there's the overall problem.

Simply put, when religion and politics ride in the same cart, it's a seriously dangerous situation. Take the firm believe in the righeousness of god, put behind that the force of law, and you've got a real threat to life, liberty and property. Because the proponents of this feel they CAN'T be wrong, they are backed by god.

 

[Darkcyde]

You dont' believe what Im telling you? Thats fine. Thats your right. Thats my duty to tell that Christ loves you, and his teachings are the ONLY WAY through life.

The ONLY WAY? That sounds a little narrow minded to me. I pesonally think religion has no place in government in today's world. I'm not religious but I seem to be getting along in life just fine. I don't need a fictional "being" to teach me right from wrong or tell me how to live. Common sense did that. ITS A CULT PEOPLE! Just because it's one of the oldest dosen't make it any different than the Branch Dividians, Heavens Gate, or any other cults we laugh at today.

 

[ToyoHabu]

If anyone want to know why politics can affect us with our Supras. Just think of all those doogooders out there who would like to take away our right to modify our cars. In a lot of countries it is Illegal to modify your car(you cant be trusted ) SEMA Action Network

 

[SupraMario]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Supracentral again.

Supracentral, very well said, I aplaud your intellegnce and over all knowledge of this issue. If more people thought like you then this county might just be better off.
I'm in no way saying kill religion, but the separation of church and state should be impossed.

 

[Troyota]

^ He got the +1 from me. I completely agree. I have stayed out of this debate, but have been watching it intently. I have my own beliefs but go completely out of my way to not impose those beliefs on anybody else. (I guess it's the libertarian in me ) However, Supracentral has gone about this in a very logical manner which I completely respect. I doubt this or any debate that boils down to a religious/political debate will ever really sway the opinion of one side or the other who is dead set in thier ways. It is however useful for anybody who may be sitting on the fence to be exposed to information from both sides that may help them form an opinion for themselves on which side they support.

For those who think that the off topic section should be removed to prevent this type and other "useless" threads from being created. I completely disagree, for many (myself included) this forum has become something more than just a source of information on the Toyota Supra. I have grown to respect/admire a great deal of the people who post on this forum. I feel I may even have grown a familiarity with these people. I genuinely care how thier day went. If something bad happened, I want to hear about it and hope that everything resolves itself in a good manner. If something funny happened, I want to share in the laughs. If something magical happened (the birth of a child) I want to share in the joy of the moment. I like the little snippets that are found on the web somewhere, because I sure don't have enough time to scrounge the net for such things. And yes, I even enjoy debates such as this, because hopefully (and I believe so) after all is said and done, we (the members) still feel like a family at the end of the day. If something bad happens to SupraCentral I hope that NickW will still express his sorrow. As if NickW has a funny story to tell us about something that happened to him today, SupraCentral will share in the laughs. Even if they don't see eye to eye on this particular thread. If I wanted to just go to a forum to get information about the Toyota Supra I'd visit a certain other site that I feel less at home at.

 

[87supraturbo19]

i totally agree.i think its great that we can all debate and have fun like this. i would never hold any on these coversations against anyone.

 

[Joel W.]

I want to comment on the off topic section for a second and only the OT section..

I agree that there needs to be rules as far as no personal attacks and respecting others rights. No problems here..

But as for the "topics" offending people it should be easy enough to just click the back space button if you do not approve. You don't have to participate in the thread against your free will.

Have I ever been offended by some of the OT thread topics?? Well sure I have... However, I realized they were not directed at me personally and so I just implemented the use of the backspace button.. Problem solved...

 

[norton65ca]

I know I said I was out of this thread, but I get the feeling that's not going to be possible. I feel LouKY has misinterpreted what I wrote, so I wish to clarify.

Hi all,
I am a newcomer, no Supra, but a nice '85 Celica GTS. This is my first post, I couldn't resist this one.
Thank you Supra Central for your very interesting post on libertarianism.
I am a Christian, have been one for twenty six years. (I am currently 42 years old). SupraCentral has laid out the basics of his philosophy very well, and it is one I heartily agree with. When are evangelicals going to realize that there is absolutely nothing in the bible that states we have any right to judge the World? God in his wisdonm and justice will do that very well at the End of Days thank you. No morality can ever be effectively legislated, it must come from ones own inner being and belief system. As members of the invisible church, we have only the right to judge our own, not the world which has already been judged. We are called upon to live in peace with all men, and to give an answer when asked as to the source of the Hope that lives within us, not to prohibit or restrict the world from doing what it does naturally.
The current shrieking about morality that infects US politics is very frightening. I am very wary about powerful men in office who proclaim themselves to be believers when all their actions declare the opposite. I am extremely distrustful of those who call themselves Christians and commit crimes and evil throughout the world. It is oh so easy to hoodwink the flock with platitudes that secure votes, picking "hot button" issues designed to divide and polarize, while at the same time inflicting misery and bloodshed on millions around the world in the name of "democracy and feedom", whatever that means. I have had it with the false faced liars and deceitful men who would lead Gods people into supporting wickedness and murder, while proclaiming themselves to be doing Gods work. Read your bible, alll of it, and heed the warnings about false prophets and liars who come to decieve.
I believe in as little government as possible, and what I do in the privacy of my own home, whether moral or not in others eyes, is MY business and Gods, no-one elses, certainly not self styled "righteous" men. I'll face Him to answer to my shortcomings, and the one who lifted me up will step in my place and decare my debts paid by his blood, thank you, but no preacher had anything to do with that, and only God will be able to open anyone elses eyes, not some legislated false morality system, which is a form of idolatry anyway. Everyone has been given choices to make, and one will pay the consequences for those choices. The government has NO right telling me what I can or cannot do with my body, what I put into it or not, and what I can think. I will deal with all these issues in my prayers. The book is a guide to living free, not a book of rules by which to re-enter slavery.
America, beware of wolves in sheeps clothing.
cheers, Gary J Parker, Victoria, BC
'85 Celica GTS
'65 Norton Atlas 750
'69 Norton mercury 650

 

[Shytheed Dumas]

I certainly agree that SC laid down a well thought out and provoking position, but it is still problematic. The main problem with Libertarianism and his position that God would be happy with Libertarianism is that we have a moral responisibility to protect innocence (children, in particular) from inherently bad things. I have a hard time accepting SC's position that God (sorry, my God) would feel good about dangling every conceivable dangerous carrot in front of our children and then sitting back with a smug smile because some of us had "raised our children right", when in actuality we had intentionally placed them in harms way and some of us got lucky.

The challenge is in differentiating what is inherently evil or dangerous from what is not, so that rights are also protected. Drugs offer the perfect example: legalization of marijauna is debatable, because countless people have used it recreationally and succeeded in life, though some have become dependant and stupid through its or moved on to inherently bad drugs, such as crack and meth. The destroyed lives due to these drugs are equally countless and should never be legalized. Futhermore, it is selfish to think that self destruction only affects the abuser, and gives more reason to use reasonable moral judgement in protecting the innocent.

Therefore, while I can see its allure to many people in the interest of protecting rights, I do not see it as morally responsible to buy Libertarianism wholesale because it is so extreme in trying to do so.

 

[norton65ca]

"I have a hard time accepting SC's position that God (sorry, my God) would feel good about dangling every conceivable dangerous carrot in front of our children and then sitting back with a smug smile because some of us had "raised our children right", when in actuality we had intentionally placed them in harms way and some of us got lucky."

I think you are perhaps misrepresenting what SC actually said, i am certain that he did not have in mind the dangling of carrots before children, and most of what he was posting was to do with the actions and choices of grown adults.
Raise your children in the way of truth, and they will not depart from it later (paraphrased)
I have a 21 year old son, and fretted considerably for him as he watched friends from school descend into drug addiction and death. He is a good boy, we raised him as best we could, and he has hopefully left that dangerous period behind him. No amount of prohibition could have stopped him acquiring chemistry which could have brought about his end. It is a sad truth that the "war on drugs" has failed miserably. We must chart another course. When I was in school, dope was readily available every day, and no amount of laws stopped my buddies and I from toking behind the portables... and the situation is the same, if not worse, today. We need education, not more laws. The kids can be raised to resist drugs, but this must be through communication and being shown how precious and fulfilling life can be, not by being told to "just say no", without any reasons being given. Perhaps we could build a society that fosters mutual respect and decency, tolerance and meaning. Why do people do drugs? Because the world they are called upon to live in lacks fulfillment and meaning. The goals we taught to aspire to are false goals: materialism, wealth, pleasure and self gratification. Following these goals will bring despair and depression. We must raise our kids to aspire to truth and dignity, Compassion and the care for ones fellow man. The current education system stifles imagination, enforces conformity and discourages real thought and debate. It is a known fact that the builders of the American education system wanted to create and environment which would nurture obedient workers, not imaginative free thinkers. They were, once again, the powerful and influential friends of industry after all. The problems that we face today have their roots in the distant past, and the solutions will not be found in knee jerk legislation designed to please special interest groups and evangelical lobbies. In addition, harking back to your earlier points, the reality of N. American Churchianity is that of an Ivory tower that refuses to contemplate the world around it, or to realistically tackle the real and pressing problems that confront it in a compassionate and loving way, preferring instead to judge at a distance and throw tracts out the barred windows. Just my 2c, got to get back to work now...
cheers, gary

 

[Supracentral]

we have a moral responisibility to protect innocence (children, in particular) from inherently bad things. I have a hard time accepting SC's position that God (sorry, my God) would feel good about dangling every conceivable dangerous carrot in front of our children and then sitting back with a smug smile because some of us had "raised our children right", when in actuality we had intentionally placed them in harms way and some of us got lucky.

First and foremost all this liberty I discuss applies to "consenting adults".

Children don't enter into this. They can't legally buy drugs, even under a Libertarian government. By making all drug sales illegal, you have created a situation where only the bottom of the barrel lowlifes control the sale of drugs. Of course they sell to kids, they are CRIMINALS. Under a Liberarian system, legalized drugs are regulated drugs - under that system there's actually a chance of catching people who sell them in an illegal manner.

As for other areas of life, like what your kids watch on television, there's a simple answer to that:

Take responsiblility for raising your children and stop trying to foist it off on the government.

There's a simple truth: If you want something done badly, ask the government to do it.

I'll bet you dollars to dougnuts if you check with those "unlucky" people you describe, you'll find they use the television & school as a baby sitter, they have no clue what thier children do and know their children less well than the people they sit next to at work.

They aren't parents, they are DNA donors, and by encouraging the illusion that the government can make the world safe for those unwatched kids, you create the very problem you state you want to aviod.

The crushing tax burden caused by over regulation, and a government who spends TRILLIONS of dollars trying to do things it has no business doing has created a situation where most families can't afford to be single income anymore. This means there's no one around to do the parenting.

But with the dramatic decrease in the size of the federal government (and a fair tax system) that you would have under a Libertarian government, we'll have a situation where people can actually live again. And have time to actually raise children, not just produce them.

I've managed to raise 3 children myself without the worlds evil destroying them... (two of them are over 21 now...) And it's got not a damned thing to do with luck. It's got to do with actually being a parent, and not a just a DNA donor.

There is always something out there you don't want your kids around. I'd suggest keeping them away from it. You don't need to restrict my rights in order to do that.

The decline of this nation has nothing to do with "moral decline". It's got to do with too much legislation creating finanical burdens people can't bear. Too much legislation creating situations where people do not feel the need to be responsible for themselves and thier actions. Too many handouts. Too many rewards for failure & apathy.

If you use the lowest common denominator (the stupid, the weak, the lazy) as your basis for the creation of your laws you are going to wind up with a nation and laws that are only suitable for the stupid, the lazy and the weak.

I dont' want to live there, how about you?