My fellow americans... (Warning: US Politics)
- Thread starter Supracentral
- Start date
One more thing.
Don't pick on the folks that either don't know, or don't choose to differentiate between religion and faith - from a non-Christian point of vew, there really is no significant difference. I'd suggest explaining why that's kinda insulting, and more often than not considerate people will try to remember that for the future, but it's a universal truth that the two will be forever confused by the majority of the populace.
Don't pick on the folks that either don't know, or don't choose to differentiate between religion and faith - from a non-Christian point of vew, there really is no significant difference. I'd suggest explaining why that's kinda insulting, and more often than not considerate people will try to remember that for the future, but it's a universal truth that the two will be forever confused by the majority of the populace.
Win 98 is certainly better than XP home and XP business.
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A few more things.
and
To SupraCentral, :drink1: for all of those that do not bow down to the requirements of a two party system.
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A few more things.
Constitution Party said:
and
Constitution Party said:
To SupraCentral, :drink1: for all of those that do not bow down to the requirements of a two party system.
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Well so much for this thread. I wanted to discuss rational politics, instead I got rabid fundamentalism... It's obvious that there can be no intellignet debate or discussion when one side accepts "because god said so" as the "fact" that all their positions proceed from.
In other words, I surmise that if I asked you to tell me what I would have to do to change your opnion, your answer would be something along the lines of "You can never convince me that I am wrong because I have faith" - therefore I see no point in continuing this.
In other words, I surmise that if I asked you to tell me what I would have to do to change your opnion, your answer would be something along the lines of "You can never convince me that I am wrong because I have faith" - therefore I see no point in continuing this.
Supracentral said:
So now you understand the power of faith! There is no doubt that "intelligent debate or discussion" could be had on policy, but where it stomps on the basics of faith, I believe you are right. You will never convince many of us that we are wrong on any topic where our faith tells us that we will enjoy an eternal reward if we stay true to it. Nothing could be worth it.
Grim, I have to point out that Jesus did not write one word of the Bible himself. The bible is the actual word of God as he inspired certain people to write it as his communication with humankind. I don't believe any of the original transcripts exist today, but if you look into it, there will be a lot of consistency since at least the 4th century which would have been the last major "revision" (actually more translational and interpretal edits) to the bible at the Council of Nicea (sp?). If I'm not mistaken, 600 or more 2nd and 3rd generation manuscripts exist with some dating back as far as the 2nd century. And so, I respectfully disagree that the bible has been used or manipulated to push the agenda of any church.
Look, I'm not a thumper. I'm not a fundamentalist. I do have a solid faith, and I have a lot to look forward to. For the most part I keep it to myself. I don't have any negative feelings toward anybody who doesn't believe unless they use their beliefs to corrupt people, especially children. I do hope people without faith in God will find it. I don't believe that God "throws anybody in hell", but I do believe that anybody who has denied him all their life will be too ashamed to face him in the afterlife, and that would be an existence without God (hell).
Consider this: Atheism is in fact a faith (albeit a dangerous one if you're wrong), and one that is as deeply rooted in politics as Christianity. You can no more have an intelligent discussion or debate on politics and completely disregard your faith than I can. In fact, if you take a close and honest look at it, atheism requires a much greater leap of faith than any Christian, Hindu, or Buddist.
Since faith in God comes first and foremost for people who believe, it cannot be separated from politics. I believe that God would want people to empower themselves and for those who have it to give money and time to useful charities and people who really need it. As such, conservatism fits better than anything out there, but it's not perfect.
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LouKY said:
And this is why I fear the only way this will end is in bloodshed. We will see in the United States and elsewhere like we are seeing now with secular west fighting fundamental Islam in battle. The founding fathers had a deep mistrust of religion in politics. For those who do not know most of the original colonies had state religions. The founding fathers of The USA recognized that in order to form a successful government religion MUST be taken out of politics or they feared and rightly so that America would see the bloody religious wars that had afflicted Europe for centuries. The framers in creating the constitution where very careful to remove the role of religion from the State without going as far as the Communist did to outlaw it. The hijacking of the conservative party by the religious right is a very dangerous development in the USA. The stated goal of this movement is the reversal of the exclusion of religion from the state and the creation of an theocracy and sets the stage for resumed religious warfare.
ToyoHabu said:
Again, we need to look at Faith versus Religion. What I'm trying to say is that your faith, whether Christianity, Buddism, or Atheism, or whatever, is such a fundamental part of who you are that you simply cannot separate faith from politics. Religion certainly can and should be.
This isn't a question of our government taking away our freedoms,
THIS IS A QUESTION OF WE THE PEOPLE TAKING AWAY OUR FREEDOMS.
People vote now because, 1. the canadite has one thing that they like but, they over look the rest.
If people would read up and study what the canidates have to offer, what type of track record they have in previous government possitions. ect, then this government wouldnt be in the shit hole it is right now.
and as far as religion goes.
Seperation from church and state.
I dont want the word god be pronouced by any government official. Y, u ask?
plain and simple, this country is so diverse with its people that, everyone has their own veiws of certain topics and issues at hand, god isn't going to come down and help us out.
neither will a book that was "writen" by man 2k+ years ago.
And before someone says that I'm atheist, I'm not, Agnostic here, I was catholic up until i was about 18, I went to a catholic high school. So i know how religions work.
K.I.S.S.
THIS IS A QUESTION OF WE THE PEOPLE TAKING AWAY OUR FREEDOMS.
People vote now because, 1. the canadite has one thing that they like but, they over look the rest.
If people would read up and study what the canidates have to offer, what type of track record they have in previous government possitions. ect, then this government wouldnt be in the shit hole it is right now.
and as far as religion goes.
Seperation from church and state.
I dont want the word god be pronouced by any government official. Y, u ask?
plain and simple, this country is so diverse with its people that, everyone has their own veiws of certain topics and issues at hand, god isn't going to come down and help us out.
neither will a book that was "writen" by man 2k+ years ago.
And before someone says that I'm atheist, I'm not, Agnostic here, I was catholic up until i was about 18, I went to a catholic high school. So i know how religions work.
K.I.S.S.
You may think i'm out of order here, but i tried the test as a citizen of the latest American State (the United Kingdom) Every thing that happens in American politics affects us in the UK more than you realise. At the moment Bush has Blair sat on his knee, playing him like a ventriloquists Dummy.
By the way i'm came out as a Conservative
By the way i'm came out as a Conservative
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LouKY said:
then those people, dont need to be in politics. plain and simple
Keep faith and religion, out of political issues. Look whats happening over in the middle east that you all hate so much, they have religion running the government.
LouKY said:
then those people should be seperated from politics, period. When leading a country, things of such a subjective nature as morality and ethics on the personal level should be irrelevent. Decisions made purely on the basis of personal belief, especially when religion is in the mix, should not be tolerated period. Without moral seperation we create extremely difficult diplomatic situations with countries holding far different ethical and moral standpoints, and thus what would be considered diplomacy descends to little more than a battle of faith...possibly descending to the point of involving the armed forces. Those who cannot make decisions without involving thier own ethical standpoints should not be placed in office because they are too weak to displace thier own standpoint in favor of what either the majority deems the right decision or what would benefit the country more than your morally supported decision would.
I'm not telling you to not believe in god, just keep him, and individual opinions for that matter, out of the oval office and it's all good.
You didnt answer the main question, you redirected the debate. Who decides what is right and wrong? Answer the question. The majority? When majority rules, the rights of minorities are trampled. Don't believe it? Ask a black man.SupraCentral said:
D34DC311 said:
I think we need more people of faith in politics. If a person beleives that there is an ultimate consequence for their actions, (by this I mean hell) rather than it's ok, as long as I don't get caught, then wouldn't there be a little less corruption?
You can call me a Bible thumper, a fanactic, or anything else that you might relate to a Christain, that's ok, because I live in a country that allows me to live out loud. I will share my beliefs with anyone who is interested and offer the word to anyone who wants to listen because, " For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever beleiveth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 If you don't beleive, then thats between you and God, but I personally do not want to hear the words "I knew you not".
I do not understand the distaste for Christainity that is becoming more and more the main stream. How could you dislike people who teach love?
Jesus said " For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you." John13:15.
God bless you and Jesus loves you. Even when you don't return the sentiment.
If I offended anyone it was not my intent.
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Nick M said:
I've already told you I'm done with this conversation, however I will answer this one question.
The simple answer is the rational thoughts of free men.
Fortunately for us we live in a country where those rational thoughts produced a Constitution. A document that guarantees anyone the right to life, liberty & property. A document that specifically defends us from the horrible reality of mob rule. Is it perfect? No. However it's the absolute best system around.
And as a reminder I'd point out that we DO live in a Constitutional Republic, not a democracy. And that's a good thing, because that Constitution protects all of us from people who think they know better than the rest of us what we should do with our lives. i.e. - people like you.
And before you go off the handle replying to that, let's be sure we are very clear. Not once have I advocated at any point in this discourse the creation of law to remove or restrict the rights of others to do what they will, provided they do not engage in acts of force against another.
You however would legistlate from your mighty pulpit all aspects of free men's lives. You would restrict the rights of free men based upon the writings in a contradictory, and sometimes downright frightening piece of work.
And since we're questioning my sense of right and wrong, I'd like to point out some of the atrocities that your holy book endorses. I've read it, cover to cover several times trying to understand what exactly it is about this work that facinates you people so. From what I can tell it details mutilation, rape, various curses, slavery, capital punishment for trivial crimes, animal cruelty, misogyny, child abuse, homophobia, and and a few others I can't think of right now. It's worse than late night primetime on Cinemax...
Here's a few examples for those who haven't actually read this particular very disturbing piece of work:
Book of Genesis 6:11-17, 7:11-24
God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history. - Hitler wasn't shit compared to this asshole...
Book of Exodus 21:20-21
With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly. - He ain't no Abe Lincoln...
Leviticus 27:29
Human sacrifice is condoned. - But hey, that's ok, he's a loving god.
Numbers 25:4 (King James Version)
"And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...." - Vlad Tepes had nothing on your god...
Deuteronomy 21:10-13
With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go. - Slap them ho bitches - your god might make a good South East LA rapper...
Judges 19:22-29
A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine (or wife): "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The man's concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel. - Ho 'dem bitches out yo!
That's a small sampling from very small section of the old testament. And the new testament, albiet lighter of heart, still contains similar atrocities. I could go on for pages and pages. However this is enough to give a good example of what you want to use as the holy guide for determination of what is right and wrong. Remember, you stated this is your gods word, not the words of the people who wrote it down. Your god is infallible, so all of this is 100% true. He knows when the smallest bird falls, correct? I'm sure he can be sure that the book is properly edited.
MKIII VIXEN said:
All mainstream christian religions today worship the same anthropomorphic God of bigotry, hatred, greed and violence. Read the "manual" for your religion. Actually read it. Can you truly support this as the one and only "truth"?
Given the choice between that and the rational thoughts of free men, I'll take the free men anyday.
And I'm done with this. I'm certain some of you (especially Nick M) will post several "demands" that I reply to specific questions and "straw man" arguments that you'll put up after I exit this thread. I won't be back to answer them.
Enjoy your faith, I hope it gives you everything you need in life.
So you think all the rapist and murderers should go free? How can you quote this when you state it is a 2000 year old work of fiction. You can't have it both ways. Quite the double standard.
Typical liberal history revision....
The real Levitcus 27:29 is only a sentence .
So what does that mean, well read what is before and after. Nowhere will you find human sacrifice. You will find sacrifice of the beast of the field. :3d_frown:
And the Lord saw how wicked men are when morrality was left up to their hearts. So he manifested himself as a human, and referred to this human as the Son of God. And did the highest act of love possible and stood in for everybody else's punishment. What else would a true God do? He took that beating and execution for you. What more could you ask from somebody? A person commits sin, and he will take the punishment for you. Sounds like a great deal to me.
And you don't have to accept it. He said he will spew you out of his mouth. Metaphorically speaking of course. No hard feelings.
BTW, where do you think the real Dracula got his idea for punishment?
Don't impose your persoal morrality on me. Quite the double standard. If there was one thing the Lord can not stand it is a double standard. AKA, hypocrites.:3d_frown:
Typical liberal history revision....
Mans wickedness is so bad, human sacrifice, rape, murder, theivery, (liberal like self driven morrality) that he destroys mankind, and takes a breedable pair of each kind(not speciecs) on the Ark. As the rest of the creation is souless. So what.
Did you intentially lie, or are you lacking knowledge on this? I highly suggest you do not go misquoting scripture. You will be called on it. What it reallys says is if a man strikes his worker or maid and kills him, he shall surely be exectuted for sheding innocent blood. If he doesn't die he isn't punished. Only immoral slavery is forbidden. We still have slavery now. Every hear of prison? Abe's amendment outlawed immoral slavery only.
The real Levitcus 27:29 is only a sentence .
The Lord said:
So what does that mean, well read what is before and after. Nowhere will you find human sacrifice. You will find sacrifice of the beast of the field. :3d_frown:
So first you say human sacrifice is wrong, then when these people are punished for it that is different? There is that H word again. The wrath of the Lord is great, no doubt.
How do you say 10-13, when you put in one verse? My advise is don't copy and paste from athiest sources. They are trying to sway you with incomplete statements. What it really says is, when you meet up with other countries who wish to fight, then make peace. And they will be your servants. If they chose no peace and fight, then take it to them. As you pointed out. The Lord told the world through Israel, if you will not live by the law, you will die by it. Crimes have punishment.
And these are the types of people that Israeli army gave those beat downs too. What is your point? That this should go unpunished? This is described in the Bible as a horrible crime. So don't just take things out of context.
Then do it, and I will tell the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey says. See you took things out of context, or the author did, or other things evil people did and say the Lord did it. Please go on.
And the Lord saw how wicked men are when morrality was left up to their hearts. So he manifested himself as a human, and referred to this human as the Son of God. And did the highest act of love possible and stood in for everybody else's punishment. What else would a true God do? He took that beating and execution for you. What more could you ask from somebody? A person commits sin, and he will take the punishment for you. Sounds like a great deal to me.
And you don't have to accept it. He said he will spew you out of his mouth. Metaphorically speaking of course. No hard feelings.
BTW, where do you think the real Dracula got his idea for punishment?
While on the subject. John 3:16 is nice. 3:18 is not nice. So you can add that to your quotes.
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IIRC, the government of Finland was based around this book....
and we all know how that went.:icon_roll
MKIII VIXEN said:
If man can't decide right from wrong on their own accord, and they need someone else to lay down the rules, than they are a lost cause for politics.
MKIII VIXEN said:
Christainity isnt becoming more and more fogotten.
Its actually growing, people I would have never thought that would have choosen a religion are now classifying themselves as christian.
To me, I'll be honest, I think most of them are doing it as a fad.
not everyone is prefect, but going to church or a gathering for an hour or 2 each weekend, isn't going to save you. The devil isnt real either, he is only real if "you" create him. It all comes down to your own morals, thats why I dont need a preacher or priest or a book to tell me whats right and wrong.
Supracentral said:
:nono: Crickets chirping.
Supracentral, I'm not upset at your attempt to touch a nerve, but your rage toward God and Christians in particular is sobering. I hope that something changes in whatever time you have left.
For the rest of you who beat us down and insist that there has been some sort of Christian conspiracy to hijack the government, consider this: When broken down to the most basic elements, you classify yourself as conservative, liberal, libertarian, etc because one of those classifications seems to you to be the best way to serve society. How you prioritize social needs and the best way to serve them are based on your morality. Your morality is rooted in whatever you have faith in - God, no god, satan, whatever. Your particular religion is something else all together, and should be separate from politics.
This is not hard, yet so many agnostics and atheists will go to the ends of the earth to shove their morality down our throats, yet hammer on anybody who's morality is based in God for doing the same. Accept the fact that how you think society is best served is inherently based on your morality, and the stupidity of this discussion and bashing each other can finally end.