Gun caliber?

[iwannadie]

I get into this topic alot with people and just curious what everyone here thinks about it.

Short personal gun history;
I own a springfield armory xd9 and love it, being my first handgun I had zero experience before it. A friend bought his first pistol at the same time as me, a smith and wesson .45(not sure on model).

We went to the range the first few times together and my aim quickly(1st day) became pretty good(silhouette head/body shots). My friend with his .45 couldnt hit anything with any constancy at 20-25 yards. We traded guns and I had the same problem, couldnt get the accuracy dialed in as easy/fast. We did double taps and mine were Very close, his were lucky to be on the paper at all. I know all of this is remedy with practice however.

Now for me, I still like my 9mm. I feel I can be very accurate with it and in the end a headshot with a 9mm Vs. .45 is still a kill either way. I get it from people all the time that my gun is a girls gun and has no stopping power etc. The same people giving me grief are the type of people that go buy the biggest pistol they can and never practice at the range with it. They always say 'I dont need to be accurate because I have true stopping power'.

If my .45 friend is anything to go by, even Hitting the target is a real task so how does bigger = better for a newbie/non-range junkie? I also pointed out the possibility of missing and the .45 passing through walls and hitting people that way etc. It always ends with 'I have to have the most stopping power'.

Do any long time(read accurate) shooters prefer a caliber namely for carried self defense and why? What do the pros consider to be optimal situations for small/big caliber pistols? Or really is it just personal preference as long as you can hit the target with the gun you have?

 

[Dunckel]

When it comes to a .40 or a .45, it's like saying, "which would you rather get hit by, a pinto doing 90mph, or ford F250 doing 55mph?"
I chose to carry a .40 because it is a good middle point. It has speed, as well as stopping power. (more than a 9 or a .380.)
Accuracy has a lot to do with the shooter, but also has a lot to do with the sights. The greater the distance between the front and rear sight, the more accurate the gun will be.
Most of the time when people miss the target because they went to a bigger caliber, it is because they were intimidated by the caliber itself. Regardless of what type of gun you are shooting, the bullet will hit what the gun was aimed at.

EDIT: You would probably have a better discussion if this were moved to the gun thread. PM a mod.

 

[Clueless]

^^ That's with my p345pr at 25yds.

I've shot both small and large caliber gun/rifles and personally prefer the bigger stuff. Is the rear sights adjusted right? If it's not, it could be what's throwing the aim off.

 

[iwannadie]

^^ That's with my p345pr at 25yds.

I've shot both small and large caliber gun/rifles and personally prefer the bigger stuff. Is the rear sights adjusted right? If it's not, it could be what's throwing the aim off.

Yea he was blaming the gun too, we had the gunsmith/range master check the gun. He fired off a full clip Fast and had them all in a 2" cluster. It wasnt the gun thats for sure. The gunsmith said the trigger pull was a bit heavy for my friend(small weak hands I guess) causing him to pull shots down and to the left or something.

*edit
You prefer the bigger stuff but Why, thats what Im most curious about Theres got to be a reason why you want the bigger caliber?

 

[iwannadie]

When it comes to a .40 or a .45, it's like saying, "which would you rather get hit by, a pinto doing 90mph, or ford F250 doing 55mph?"
I chose to carry a .40 because it is a good middle point. It has speed, as well as stopping power. (more than a 9 or a .380.)
Accuracy has a lot to do with the shooter, but also has a lot to do with the sights. The greater the distance between the front and rear sight, the more accurate the gun will be.
Most of the time when people miss the target because they went to a bigger caliber, it is because they were intimidated by the caliber itself. Regardless of what type of gun you are shooting, the bullet will hit what the gun was aimed at.

EDIT: You would probably have a better discussion if this were moved to the gun thread. PM a mod.

I was going to put it in the gun thread, but figured itd get burried in there. Also its not about a particular gun and I wanted a poll so...

 

[Supracentral]

As for your inaccuracy problems, it sounds like "limp wrist" syndrome. It take a bit of strength to fire a .45 with accuracy. Also the trigger pull of the gun should allow you to squeeze it, not pull it. Pulling a trigger will guarantee a miss (usually to the right of the target if you are right handed). You'll also find that if your wrist is limp, you'll take far longer to get back on target after a shot, and also you'll find that your gun will stovepipe.

I don't particularly like your poll choices. Large isn't necessarily "messy". .50 AE? Yea, messy. Some others, no so much - read on.

My daily carry weapon is a Taurus PT-945. I've had it for over 10 years. Other than some mild ramp work and a nice set of formed Hogue grips, it's pretty much stock. It's durable and has worn well over the years. It's a large frame but carries easily in either a shoulder rig or back of the pants holster. Ask Theresa, I almost never leave the house without it.

It's chambered in .45. and there's good reason behind that choice.

I like the .45 because it's SLOW. It's a subsonic round. This serves to ensure that overpenetration isn't really an issue (round going THROUGH your target), and the chance of wounding an innocent bystander are considerably lower as the round won't travel as far, nor will it go through multiple walls, etc.

The last thing I want to do is shoot some scumbag felon and wind up hitting someone else.

Remember that most self defense pistol engagements happen at ranges of under 15 feet. You don't need hypersonic rounds at this range. No, you're not going to go out sniping with this choice of ammo, but that's not what it's for. There are other toys for that sort of shooting.

I don't load +P ammo. It's harder on the gun, and it's faster. I don't want fast. I use high quality, normal powered self defense rounds. Currently I use Speer Gold Dot JHP's in the 230 grain range. It's good stuff, has excellent penetration and wound cavity size. Although I hate the term, it's got "stopping power".

Staring down the barrel of a .45 is not a pleasant feeling. It looks disturbingly large from the business end.

My PT-945 holds 8 rounds. Once again, I figure if I need more than 8 rounds, I'm pretty much fucked. The shoulder rig will hold 2 spare mags if needed as well.

Hope this helps.

 

[Big Wang Bandit]

Every handgun I have grown to love in my fathers "collection" Are usually the "middle ground"

.40 and .357

 

[Clueless]

Yea he was blaming the gun too, we had the gunsmith/range master check the gun. He fired off a full clip Fast and had them all in a 2" cluster. It wasnt the gun thats for sure. The gunsmith said the trigger pull was a bit heavy for my friend(small weak hands I guess) causing him to pull shots down and to the left or something.

*edit
You prefer the bigger stuff but Why, thats what Im most curious about Theres got to be a reason why you want the bigger caliber?

between shooting my friend's 9mil High Point and PT92 and shooting my 45 acp p345pr, the 9mil's have a sharper recoil then the 45 acp. The benefits of the 9mil as far as capacity is nil considering I hope to end all confrontation within 3 shots, which is more then deadly with hollow points. 9mil's might be able to fly faster thru the air then the 45 acp, but doesn't benefit me more then the bigger holes I'd get with the 45 acp. Cost difference between 9mil and 45 acp is nothing compared to protecting myself or someone nearby. I shoot 230grains hollow points, what 9mil can offer me this? There's a reason why you don't take a .22 to hunt big game, not saying you can't use that...but you better have good shot placement with the smaller/lighter round. I guess another could be that smaller rounds makes me feel like it's a toy and it's not...

I'd probably get a 9mil if I wanted to put a silencer on it as the 45 acp is a louder round.

 

[iwannadie]

As for your inaccuracy problems, it sounds like "limp wrist" syndrome. It take a bit of strength to fire a .45 with accuracy. Also the trigger pull of the gun should allow you to squeeze it, not pull it. Pulling a trigger will guarantee a miss (usually to the right of the target if you are right handed). You'll also find that if your wrist is limp, you'll take far longer to get back on target after a shot, and also you'll find that your gun will stovepipe.

I don't particularly like your poll choices. Large isn't necessarily "messy". .50 AE? Yea, messy. Some others, no so much - read on.

My daily carry weapon is a Taurus PT-945. I've had it for over 10 years. Other than some mild ramp work and a nice set of formed Hogue grips, it's pretty much stock. It's durable and has worn well over the years. It's a large frame but carries easily in either a shoulder rig or back of the pants holster. Ask Theresa, I almost never leave the house without it.

It's chambered in .45. and there's good reason behind that choice.

I like the .45 because it's SLOW. It's a subsonic round. This serves to ensure that overpenetration isn't really an issue (round going THROUGH your target), and the chance of wounding an innocent bystander are considerably lower as the round won't travel as far, nor will it go through multiple walls, etc.

The last thing I want to do is shoot some scumbag felon and wind up hitting someone else.

Remember that most self defense pistol engagements happen at ranges of under 15 feet. You don't need hypersonic rounds at this range. No, you're not going to go out sniping with this choice of ammo, but that's not what it's for. There are other toys for that sort of shooting.

I don't load +P ammo. It's harder on the gun, and it's faster. I don't want fast. I use high quality, normal powered self defense rounds. Currently I use Speer Gold Dot JHP's in the 230 grain range. It's good stuff, has excellent penetration and wound cavity size. Although I hate the term, it's got "stopping power".

Staring down the barrel of a .45 is not a pleasant feeling. It looks disturbingly large from the business end.

My PT-945 holds 8 rounds. Once again, I figure if I need more than 8 rounds, I'm pretty much fucked. The shoulder rig will hold 2 spare mags if needed as well.

Hope this helps.

Thats some good info, I didnt really think about the speed causing 'pass through' damage. How does the 9mm compare to .45 as far as speed goes, Im guessing the 9mm is fast being smaller? Of course ammo choice plays a big roll Im sure...

As far as my aiming problems with the .45, I only shot it a few times ha. I think my problem was the heavy trigger and I was pulling not squeezing it. My xd9 has a real smooth light action, the smith and wesson just didnt feel right but with more time Im sure it would be ok. The kick wasnt too much of a problem for me(big hands/wrist/forearms) and again, my friend has small girly hands lol.

My friends .45 problems all are user error But it seems small errors(tea cupping and pulling the trigger) are amplified on a .45 compared to a 9mm. He made all the same mistakes while using my 9mm and had alot better aim with it. Im just trying to point out a poorly aimed big caliber gun is worse off than a well aimed small caliber imo.

I dont like the idea of a .45 being more intimidating though in a defense situation. I mean really at 20yards in the dark(typical self defense situation?) will an attacker Really notice barrel size? Id like to think any attacker will just see a Gun and beyond that it wouldnt matter. I agree the .45 looks just sickening and makes my 9mm look like a BB gun but you gotta be some what close ha.

 

[Clueless]

Looks a lot like my gun...

Staring down the barrel of a .45 is not a pleasant feeling. It looks disturbingly large from the business end.

Edit: Damn, I really like that last picture....must crop it make use of it in my Aviator

 

[cuel]

As far as what I would "prefer" for defense:
Home defense: 12ga. 00 buck 3 1/2" mags. Not a big need to be accurate, just point in the general direction. Big boom, and lots of lead filling the hall/doorway. IF they survive, they'll wish they hadn't. It's highly unlikely an ambulance would make it in time, anyway.
Personal defense: .45 acp is perfect. The amount of trauma caused by almost 1/2" of lead hitting the torso at over 800 f.p.s. is lethal, period. No need for a head shot. Anywhere in the chest will be lethal. Those rounds posted by Supracentral do a good job. Black talons do a good job, to. http://www.thegunzone.com/black-talon.html
Usually these encounters will be up close and personal. 20 yds. is to far, and gives a potential victim too much reaction time. Most criminals that intend to harm you are going to be right on you before they give you any idea of what they intend. Get familiar with drawing and firing in one movement, accurately. Then, you are prepared.

For accuracy: http://www.mobipocket.com/en/eBooks/BookDetails.asp?BookID=35556&Origine=1945
There are a lot of different shooting styles. Do some research, and find the one that works best for you.

 

[Merlyn]

I think a lot of it comes down to personal opinion and personal choice of "self defense". I am looking to pick up a Glock when I turn 21. Which Caliber is still up in the air... I am swaying between a 9mm and .45...

I have fired 3 guns in my life, 1 of which was a Glock 17 (9mm) which was my best shot, I was able to easily maintain a very small scatter area on 2 mags. I also fired a .357 Magnum and some random .22

The debate in my head is simply this...

Stopping Power vs Main attempt.. I understand the initial "argument" here, and simply I agree to a level

I can fire a 9mm Glock really well, enough that I can easily unload an entire magazine from 25 feet into a person.

At that point, with that kind of accuracy (for only shooting 1 day in my entire life) do I really need stopping power?.. I would much rather take 14 bullets entering a person in their torso area then have to worry about accuracy issues.

Though, until I fire a .45 I won't be able to decide... but I personally like the feel of the glock, and with fast repetitive shots I am a pretty good shot.

 

[Supracentral]

Ok,

This is not a political thread. The next person who goes political in this topic gets a week off.

I'm deleting all the bullshit. Stay on topic, if you want to discuss the political aspects of gun ownership, go to politics and post it up.

 

[iwannadie]

As far as what I would "prefer" for defense:
Home defense: 12ga. 00 buck 3 1/2" mags. Not a big need to be accurate, just point in the general direction. Big boom, and lots of lead filling the hall/doorway. IF they survive, they'll wish they hadn't. It's highly unlikely an ambulance would make it in time, anyway.
Personal defense: .45 acp is perfect. The amount of trauma caused by almost 1/2" of lead hitting the torso at over 800 f.p.s. is lethal, period. No need for a head shot. Anywhere in the chest will be lethal. Those rounds posted by Supracentral do a good job. Black talons do a good job, to. http://www.thegunzone.com/black-talon.html
Usually these encounters will be up close and personal. 20 yds. is to far, and gives a potential victim too much reaction time. Most criminals that intend to harm you are going to be right on you before they give you any idea of what they intend. Get familiar with drawing and firing in one movement, accurately. Then, you are prepared.

For accuracy: http://www.mobipocket.com/en/eBooks/BookDetails.asp?BookID=35556&Origine=1945
There are a lot of different shooting styles. Do some research, and find the one that works best for you.

Home defense is a whole new issue, thats why I said carried defense for this thread. No doubt I want a shotgun for home protection you cant beat that I think.

I wish the rages Ive been too allowed quick draw shooting or quick clip unloading. Ive done alot of quick draw firing practice at home(empty gun of course) but I dont think its the same not having the recoil.

 

[iwannadie]

I think a lot of it comes down to personal opinion and personal choice of "self defense". I am looking to pick up a Glock when I turn 21. Which Caliber is still up in the air... I am swaying between a 9mm and .45...

I have fired 3 guns in my life, 1 of which was a Glock 17 (9mm) which was my best shot, I was able to easily maintain a very small scatter area on 2 mags. I also fired a .357 Magnum and some random .22

The debate in my head is simply this...

Stopping Power vs Main attempt.. I understand the initial "argument" here, and simply I agree to a level

I can fire a 9mm Glock really well, enough that I can easily unload an entire magazine from 25 feet into a person.

At that point, with that kind of accuracy (for only shooting 1 day in my entire life) do I really need stopping power?.. I would much rather take 14 bullets entering a person in their torso area then have to worry about accuracy issues.

Though, until I fire a .45 I won't be able to decide... but I personally like the feel of the glock, and with fast repetitive shots I am a pretty good shot.

Have you tried going to the range and renting guns? Thats what I did, paid 1 fee for gun use and had to buy their ammo(pricey ammo!). It was cool to get my hands on and actual fire all my options. I was set on getting 9mm first so I just tried all the various offerings for that.

I never liked the feel of glock(the ones Ive tried), just didnt fit my hand at all.

 

[Clueless]

Is there any bullets you can get that comes close to the performance of the Black Talons?

 

[Supracentral]

The Gold Dot's I use are comparable. As mentioned earlier, nearly a 1/2" of copper & lead hitting you in the chest at 800 +/- fps is going to kill you. Period.

 

[Dunckel]

I never liked the feel of glock(the ones Ive tried), just didn't fit my hand at all.

Same here. I've fired the 17, 21, and 22. Didn't like any of them.

 

[MDCmotorsports]

Is there any bullets you can get that comes close to the performance of the Black Talons?

-Magtech home defense
-Speer Gold dot
-Hornaday TAP

As for caliber, you do want something to stop your target.

You DO NOT want something you can not control. You can have the biggest cannon in the world, but if you can't hit with it, its not going to do you a dam bit of good!

I personally carry a P99 walther in .40s&w.

Its small enough to conceal, but large enough to stop my target.

If Im going "backup" carry (nice clothes, leg holster time) I take my Kahr K9 with me. Although its a 9mm, its a true "point & shoot" pistol. Where you point it is where its shoots. Its a no brainer.

The Walther on the other hand requires range time to get accurate with.

If I have a large jacket on and feel the need, the 1911 does come out and go on the hip.

The problem I have with the 1911 is ease of concealing. Its bulky compared to my other choices.

 

[cuel]

iwannadie: Not so much "quick draw", as smooth and confident. The point is to practice slowly, getting a nice, smooth action from the time you put your hand to the butt, to the time you pull the trigger. Practicing with an unloaded gun should be fine, although being loaded it balances differently. A loaded clip(no round in the chamber), safety on, and not pulling the trigger will feel different. Knowing how the gun comes out of the holster, where you naturally point it, if you snag on clothing, etc., is ideal to making you better at defending yourself. Also, spend the money and buy a good holster. I like this type of holster: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=336829&t=11082005
Holds the gun in place using a spring loaded detent that grips the trigger guard. You release it with your forefinger, which puts you in a natural position to fire the weapon. Easy, very smooth, and very fast, once you get the hang of it. They are available for many different pistols, so finding the correct one shouldn't be a problem.