I sold and installed hundereds of the new R410A systems for heating/cooling and they are phasing out the R22 units right now. My house uses R410A so get your facts straight.
I will be sure to stay away from the fiction isle...
I can only hope...
Global Warming is over. (Really, it is. No joke.)
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I sold and installed hundereds of the new R410A systems for heating/cooling and they are phasing out the R22 units right now. My house uses R410A so get your facts straight.
I will be sure to stay away from the fiction isle...
I can only hope...
Joel W. said:
Mine does too (it was built a year ago) and it's an Energy Star house. Very efficient, super insulation, superior equipment, etc... I did it because it's cost effective and my utility bills are so low it's not even funny. Not because of the "global warming" nonsense...
Supracentral said:
Good Job... They are very efficient which means they are greener to the enviroment than R22.. Best of both worlds...
Geothermal heat pumps are even cheaper to operate.. They are more expensive to buy, but if your power bills are high, they will cut them drastically and pay for them selves in just a matter of years.....
Edit: A typical house spends about $200 every two months on heating/cooling with the old system. New R410A cuts that to about $100, A geo system cuts that to about $40.
If your so smart dude, why don't you run this stuff then? LOL
Propane works too.
And so does ammonia, but you would not want to be around when there is a leak. (Very large cold storage locations and large commercial cooling is done with ammonia.)
Sorry I'm out of the loop on the commercial change over to R134a, and if you see any changes in your bills, it's not because the freon is more effective, it's due to design changes in the equipment.
R12 is better than R134a as a refrigerant. About 25% more R134a is needed to get the same cooling ability as a R12 based system.
From what the guys at this site claim, converting over to their product, (One that I'm very sure is a refined propane of some sort) should result in your new more efficiant house AC being even more effective at saving you money.
http://www.dndtransportrefrigeration.com/
Here is another company selling basicly the same stuff. (Ohh, it even quotes from greenpeace, and uses one of their charts...)
http://www.redtekstore.com/win_12a_refintro.html
Propane works too.
And so does ammonia, but you would not want to be around when there is a leak. (Very large cold storage locations and large commercial cooling is done with ammonia.)
Sorry I'm out of the loop on the commercial change over to R134a, and if you see any changes in your bills, it's not because the freon is more effective, it's due to design changes in the equipment.
R12 is better than R134a as a refrigerant. About 25% more R134a is needed to get the same cooling ability as a R12 based system.
From what the guys at this site claim, converting over to their product, (One that I'm very sure is a refined propane of some sort) should result in your new more efficiant house AC being even more effective at saving you money.
http://www.dndtransportrefrigeration.com/
Here is another company selling basicly the same stuff. (Ohh, it even quotes from greenpeace, and uses one of their charts...)
http://www.redtekstore.com/win_12a_refintro.html
Why am I not running a geo system? Because at the time it was purchased, The geo system was twice the price of the R410A and we just could not afford to get that system here. Now, they are coming down in price but still not cheap yet. I have installed only 4 of the geo systems personally. For the super rich...
The R410A equipment is greener because it uses less power to make the same amount of heat as R22. The new freon if more friendy to the enviroment (less harmful) also, but still bad(harmful).
Why do you think there is a $10,000.00 fine if you get caught dumping freon into the atmosphere and not properly recovering it for the first offense?
That's a cool link dude.. Anything that saves money and is green is good imo...
Notice they say you need more of the refined propane to replace the R134a than the R12.. due to the newer gas being less effective..
They also like to claim that nobody has blown up a propane based system, and they may be right. Still seems weird however to be running propane into your passenger compartment, one leak there at the evaporator, and your car becomes a bomb in short order.
They also like to claim that nobody has blown up a propane based system, and they may be right. Still seems weird however to be running propane into your passenger compartment, one leak there at the evaporator, and your car becomes a bomb in short order.
Yeah, That is why they add the smell of rotting flesh to the gas, so you can smell it. I had a propane heater in my travel trailer also, along with an ammonia refrigerant refer, that was propane/electric powered and it worked great. Coldest refrigerator I have ever seen.. Nothing like trying to cook a frozen egg from the refer... lol
It's true about needing more gas, the equipment is larger, but it takes less power to compress the gas to make it hot.
It's true about needing more gas, the equipment is larger, but it takes less power to compress the gas to make it hot.
Nick:
That first link is interesting. It sounds like that CRU (School of Environmental Sciences University of East Anglia, Norwich) made a mistake 6 years ago with their data, (granted a big mistake) and did not catch it before they published it... Then that John Daily guy figured it out and called them on it, Then they made the corrections and fixed their mistake.. Am I missing something? Ok. Since I have not used these guys as my "climatolagists" anyways, lets say they were on my list, and we will cross them off my list, for being either deceptive or stupid...:dunno:
By the way, The guy your using for evidence in that fist link, died in 2004 and I already crossed him off your list many pages back..
That second link: The CATO Institute... The authors of that paper are Richard S. Lindzen is the Alfred P. Sloan, I have tied these guys and the CATO institute to big oil, many pages back and I will not waste our time repeating myself here..
That third link (PDF) is a trip, I have not heard of The Lavoisier Group before. Your PDF looks current from the dates, but not when you look at the graphs. Infact, when I go to their home page, this is on the front page...
It's all pretty old and I really have a hard time with their first "lie"... I will let someone else take that PDF on if they wish.. Maybe later...
That first link is interesting. It sounds like that CRU (School of Environmental Sciences University of East Anglia, Norwich) made a mistake 6 years ago with their data, (granted a big mistake) and did not catch it before they published it... Then that John Daily guy figured it out and called them on it, Then they made the corrections and fixed their mistake.. Am I missing something? Ok. Since I have not used these guys as my "climatolagists" anyways, lets say they were on my list, and we will cross them off my list, for being either deceptive or stupid...:dunno:
By the way, The guy your using for evidence in that fist link, died in 2004 and I already crossed him off your list many pages back..
That second link: The CATO Institute... The authors of that paper are Richard S. Lindzen is the Alfred P. Sloan, I have tied these guys and the CATO institute to big oil, many pages back and I will not waste our time repeating myself here..
That third link (PDF) is a trip, I have not heard of The Lavoisier Group before. Your PDF looks current from the dates, but not when you look at the graphs. Infact, when I go to their home page, this is on the front page...
TLG said:
It's all pretty old and I really have a hard time with their first "lie"... I will let someone else take that PDF on if they wish.. Maybe later...
Actually, when I finally run out of R12, I'll either go to Mexico and buy some more, or change over to one of these refined and filterd propane alternatives.
They get you better fuel economy since they are easy to pump v/s R12, and appear to be cheaper. (I'll buy a bottle and use my existing R12 equipment as it appears the two are compatable.)
Should switch over my house as well, but it's working fine, and my house is so poorly built it would not matter much anyway. (R11 walls, and barely R28 ceiling IIRC, none in the garage... Spell that hot working conditions, or your freezing in the winter out there.)
Still, all of this is only nice because it saves me money. I don't really think there is a problem with R12 actually.
Explain this to me.
If R12 is heavy, it sinks to the ground. (Like Propane.) And it never goes up into the atmosphere right? Just hangs around the lower places untill it dissapates and breaks down.. perhaps then some parts of the gas cause problems, but they are heavy too, so no "Ozone" could be damaged by R12 that I can figure out.
Also if you always reject anything offered by big oil, why do you belive any of the environmental groups you post about? They all have been, or are funded by oil companies, or shell companies of oil companies.
Oil companies love this whole MMGW idea, and the myth that hydrocarbons are "fossil fuels". It drives up the prices, and cements the fear that we are going to run out soon of this "precious" commodity...
They get you better fuel economy since they are easy to pump v/s R12, and appear to be cheaper. (I'll buy a bottle and use my existing R12 equipment as it appears the two are compatable.)
Should switch over my house as well, but it's working fine, and my house is so poorly built it would not matter much anyway. (R11 walls, and barely R28 ceiling IIRC, none in the garage... Spell that hot working conditions, or your freezing in the winter out there.)
Still, all of this is only nice because it saves me money. I don't really think there is a problem with R12 actually.
Explain this to me.
If R12 is heavy, it sinks to the ground. (Like Propane.) And it never goes up into the atmosphere right? Just hangs around the lower places untill it dissapates and breaks down.. perhaps then some parts of the gas cause problems, but they are heavy too, so no "Ozone" could be damaged by R12 that I can figure out.
Also if you always reject anything offered by big oil, why do you belive any of the environmental groups you post about? They all have been, or are funded by oil companies, or shell companies of oil companies.
Oil companies love this whole MMGW idea, and the myth that hydrocarbons are "fossil fuels". It drives up the prices, and cements the fear that we are going to run out soon of this "precious" commodity...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor-compression_refrigeration..
We can not even agree on water vapor so I won't even bother explaining R-12..but The ozone depletion potential of R-12 is 0.82, which is relatively high.
It's only a concern when a coil or a fitting fails and leaks all the gas out into the atmosphere, If it never leaks out, there is no issue with R-12, imo..
I only reject them because there will always be strings attatched when some one pays for a study or you to do something for them vs working for a non profit organization or NASA or a college. (big oil just makes it worse)
Also, because it is clear your guys are looking at a select few "choice bits of info" that are out of date (1996) or conclusions that have already been proven wrong, but yet they refuse to accept the new information or even read it, They only want what fits with what they want to see, and that is all that they will show you on their websites.
My guys, will show any data that is out there even if it conflicts with their opinions... If new data comes out to refute them, they will alter their views or change their opinions if they feel they made a mistake.. That is the difference.... Science is about constanty double/tripple checking the facts and looking at new info, and making changes to the conclusions if necessary...
I just wish some mainstream news agreed with your guys, but it appears only to be the extreme right that says what you say (big oil) that it is a hoax... Where on my side, almost all news sites are reporting MMGW real and happening right now..I can not believe they are ALL manipulative LEE's trying to take yours and my money away...They seem to be concerned for all..
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=global+warming..&btnG=Search+News
We can not even agree on water vapor so I won't even bother explaining R-12..but The ozone depletion potential of R-12 is 0.82, which is relatively high.
It's only a concern when a coil or a fitting fails and leaks all the gas out into the atmosphere, If it never leaks out, there is no issue with R-12, imo..
I only reject them because there will always be strings attatched when some one pays for a study or you to do something for them vs working for a non profit organization or NASA or a college. (big oil just makes it worse)
Also, because it is clear your guys are looking at a select few "choice bits of info" that are out of date (1996) or conclusions that have already been proven wrong, but yet they refuse to accept the new information or even read it, They only want what fits with what they want to see, and that is all that they will show you on their websites.
My guys, will show any data that is out there even if it conflicts with their opinions... If new data comes out to refute them, they will alter their views or change their opinions if they feel they made a mistake.. That is the difference.... Science is about constanty double/tripple checking the facts and looking at new info, and making changes to the conclusions if necessary...
I just wish some mainstream news agreed with your guys, but it appears only to be the extreme right that says what you say (big oil) that it is a hoax... Where on my side, almost all news sites are reporting MMGW real and happening right now..I can not believe they are ALL manipulative LEE's trying to take yours and my money away...They seem to be concerned for all..
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=global+warming..&btnG=Search+News
if anybody lives near the coast give me a jingle when the ice caps melt and your house is under water - you can pitch your tent in my yard if you mow my lawn
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060913/D8K49EB00.html
Its true by NASA - I guess you guys are smarter than them so I believe you instead......
Its true by NASA - I guess you guys are smarter than them so I believe you instead......
Wow, now there's a stunner... So far these are "allegations", not facts... If this was such a HUGE conspiracy, why only 14? Where are the other 86 senators on this?
And do you want me to start picking Jeffords apart? This traitor to the republicans, weak and easy to sway... In 2001 the democrats needed him to go their way so they could have senate control, Jeffords didnt want to become democrat, so he took the easy way out, he became independant...
BUT:
Thus giving control of senate to the dems, 51-49, allowing them to stroke their own agendas... But here's the nail that sealed it for Jeffords to roll over and play lap dog to the dems...
Gees, I wonder where they are?
Anyone who even mentions GW, gets attacked and threatened...
I wonder where they are???
November should be interesting for sure...
Anyone who even mentions GW, gets attacked and threatened...
I wonder where they are???
November should be interesting for sure...
Fuckin GW and his political mafia... Nothing like the Clinton body count though...Joel W. said:
So, do you have your fingers crossed Joel?Joel W. said: