Electric Fans 1 or 2

[OneJoeZee]

Over the years, I've seen you say many small stupid things; but this one is by far the worst.:nono:

You forget that people will run into barriers and run into other situations where they'd like more power, but, for instance, are limited by perhaps intercooler size etc.

That comment is as retarded as "just turn up the boost to compensate." WTF do you do when you are at the most boost you can run safely? You FIND OTHER PLACES TO MAKE POWER.

Conversely, I truly like your car and what you've done with it, though I wasnt around when you sold the car that stayed in your family for so long, I couldnt imagine why you would.

Relax. It's just a comment in fun. Freeing up power is a lame reason to support e-fans.

 

[QWIKSTRIKE]

An engine producing xxrwhp produces xx btu's of energy this needs to be disipated by the cooling system there are no if's but's or maybe's about this.

While an e-fan may work on low power cars it's always going to be margainial on a high hp car.

Even an engine fan alone is often on the limits if the cooling system isn't 100% perfect (no 20 years of crap blocking the fins or bent fins)

A correctly set up good quality e-fan with an increased capacity cooling system (larger rad) has a chance but not many Mk3 people will drop the $$$ needed to do the job right.

As for the "My e-fan saves me power" argument BULLSHIT the power to turn the fans comes from somewhere...... :nono:

E-fans are NOT perpetual motion machines giving "free power".

Agreed....I am robbed of electric current at idle which is my concern so I got and upgraded alternator. Efans rob electrical power and trust me that can be a hassle. injectors ecu and other engine parameters need CURRENT which efans can rob you of. Also get an upgrade radiator to handle more heat dissipation efan or not.

 

[Orion ZyGarian]

Orion: We live in the real world where there is only xx room available for the cooling system in the front of the Mk3 so you're limited to being able to disipate xx btu's.

Wouldnt that be more of an argument for them then? Are you referring to limited incoming frontal air or space for a fan?

As I said maybe a good set of e-fans will cut it (cost is a non issue for me) but I haven't seen a set I'd run over the Mech Fan and an e-booster and a booster electric waterpump controlled by the MoTeC.

I can drive my car hard in summer with the AC on in stop start traffic where you never get a chance for decent airflow with 0 issues.

Same here. Where I live, it may not be as hot as where you live but its no doubt more humid which is often worse.

Also, I dont have a boom boom wikky wikky system in my car; in fact, I have no radio/unit whatsoever. The 7M, external wastegate, and a venting BOV is the most beautiful symphony I need. I'll be recirculating when I get my FFIM setup though, just because its better for the car.

 

[Dan_Gyoba]

IJ: Assuming your cooling system IS running at 100% and you have a sufficiently sized radiator, I doubt you'd need the fans on during you making that power. Also, with a thermostatically controlled setup, the fan(s) will turn on regardless of throttle position (i.e. if you're trying to make the most power that you can) whereas with a manual setup, you can leave them off and then turn them on right away when you need the cooling.

It's when you're making power that you need cooling the most. If you're making that power at high speed, then you probably don't need to pour as much power into the system, but that's all regulated with a clutch system.

The fan clutch's job is to regulate how much power goes to the fan. If it's hot, then a lot of power goes. If it's cool, then very little does. When you're 'trying to make the most power' is when the engine is dumping the most heat, which the cooling system must then shed to atmosphere.

As for freeing up power, the whole point is that it doesn't. The one and only point that I'd conceed is that it reduces rotating mass.

A proper thermostatic setup will help with electric fans, and I'd never even consider a setup that didn't. A manual setup scares me, because you can accidentally shut it off and overheat, or just forget to turn it on. You get started, and you're onto the highway. The system's keeping cool 'cause youre' cruising along at 70mph. You get into town, stop 'n go traffic, and suddenly your rad spews coolant all over the road becasue you didn't turn the fan on. That's gotta suck.

I'm not totally against electric fans, but I've gotta see proof that they work better.

 

[Orion ZyGarian]

It's when you're making power that you need cooling the most. If you're making that power at high speed, then you probably don't need to pour as much power into the system, but that's all regulated with a clutch system.

The fan clutch's job is to regulate how much power goes to the fan. If it's hot, then a lot of power goes. If it's cool, then very little does. When you're 'trying to make the most power' is when the engine is dumping the most heat, which the cooling system must then shed to atmosphere.

As for freeing up power, the whole point is that it doesn't. The one and only point that I'd conceed is that it reduces rotating mass.

A proper thermostatic setup will help with electric fans, and I'd never even consider a setup that didn't. A manual setup scares me, because you can accidentally shut it off and overheat, or just forget to turn it on. You get started, and you're onto the highway. The system's keeping cool 'cause youre' cruising along at 70mph. You get into town, stop 'n go traffic, and suddenly your rad spews coolant all over the road because you didn't turn the fan on. That's gotta suck.

I'm not totally against electric fans, but I've gotta see proof that they work better.

Having a manual switch teaches you to pay attention to your gauges more; even on my DD I religiously follow them. I know better than to not monitor my car better than that.

Also, yes the engine makes the most heat when you're making power, but you're also going much faster and have much more incoming air to help cool it. I doubt the fans could supply as much air as the air you're running into itself.

Also, proper ducting is very essential as well.

 

[QWIKSTRIKE]

Having a manual switch teaches you to pay attention to your gauges more; even on my DD I religiously follow them. I know better than to not monitor my car better than that.

Also, yes the engine makes the most heat when you're making power, but you're also going much faster and have much more incoming air to help cool it. I doubt the fans could supply as much air as the air you're running into itself.
Also, proper ducting is very essential as well.

Agreed...I put my carfashion vented hood and my running temps dropped 20-30 degrees, and when I put the bomex wide mouth bumper on I lost another 20-30 degrees of heat through better venting. My oil temps now rarely break over 180 degrees where as they use to go as high as 215 degrees.:naughty::biglaugh:

 

[Orion ZyGarian]

On that note, I'm a huge fan of oil-to-water coolers. I can see why companies (again BMW...I mention because I worked as a tech there for two years) are starting to use them more and more, and now I really want one for my car. There are NO downsides to it, such as over-cooling the oil etc. They can be mounted anywhere (instead of where they can get air flow) and are fairly compact; not to mention that you can now use the airflow that it would normally use for intercooling or radiating.

I will say that I havent had much luck finding any however. Can anyone help in this manner?

 

[QWIKSTRIKE]

]On that note, I'm a huge fan of oil-to-water coolers.[/I][/B] I can see why companies (again BMW...I mention because I worked as a tech there for two years) are starting to use them more and more, and now I really want one for my car. There are NO downsides to it, such as over-cooling the oil etc. They can be mounted anywhere (instead of where they can get air flow) and are fairly compact; not to mention that you can now use the airflow that it would normally use for intercooling or radiating

Not me....it I am quite happy with my upgraded 13x2x5 3/4 19 row oil cooler. When I put that thing in it changed my belief on how much should be spent on oil coolers. My oil temps never goes over 180 degrees in the winter, and barely goes ove 190 in the summer in standing traffic.

This cooler is in between my AC condenser, and IC. It also helps having a relocated dual oil filter of which one holds a quart of oil and the other almost a quart and a half of oil. The cooler also holds over a quart of oil, and I have about 10-11 quarts of oil on fill up.

 

[WhtMa71]

Also, I dont have a boom boom wikky wikky system in my car; in fact,

:rofl:

The 7M, external wastegate, and a venting BOV is the most beautiful symphony I need.

I agree with this..although my girlfriend does not agree

 

[3p141592654]

You can find oil-to-water coolers at some racing shops. They tend to be custom made and expensive.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/category/Mocal_Heat_Exchangers

 

[Orion ZyGarian]

Fuck thats ridiculous..I just found an OEM one from the dealership for $200!

Thanks for the link though, I will continue searching.

On a side note on topic, I'm curious as to whether or not anyone uses smaller fans for their intercooler, oil cooler, etc.

 

[IJ.]

Having a manual switch teaches you to pay attention to your gauges more; even on my DD I religiously follow them. I know better than to not monitor my car better than that.

Also, yes the engine makes the most heat when you're making power, but you're also going much faster and have much more incoming air to help cool it. I doubt the fans could supply as much air as the air you're running into itself.

Also, proper ducting is very essential as well.

The problem with that approach is it leaves too much to human error.

Doesn't take much of an overheat to anneal a 7M head then it's junk.

 

[Poodles]

Yep, what if someone else drives your car?

The other reason to go to e-fans, especially for a company like BMW, is less noise because they only come on when needed.

But, personally after installing a koyo radiator, new fan shroud (with custom brackets to make the shroud mount properly), and a brand new OEM fan clutch... it's quiet when it's cold.

My fiance's neon is louder when it's fans are on then mine is after a very hard drive. But honestly I dunno WTF anyone is saying about noise since most of our exhausts would drown out the noise at idle anyway...

 

[Orion ZyGarian]

The problem with that approach is it leaves too much to human error.

Doesn't take much of an overheat to anneal a 7M head then it's junk.

This is very much true and very embarrassing for me and other 7M fans. Because of this I have had ideas here and there as to how to send better cooling to the #6 cyl as that is most often the problem child, and separately, thinking of different ways to have a more proper, uniform seal of the head to the block. Obviously, none of which have been financially feasible.

Imagine an all aluminum 7M though.. one with most all of the properties of the 7M retained save for minor upgrades such as an oil pump tube without a bend, a #6 cyl that doesnt get shafted from cooling problems, perhaps a reverse flow coolant system (cools the head, then the block; see LT1 Chevys and others) with a more uniform distribution of coolant around the cylinders...

I can dream.

 

[QWIKSTRIKE]

Setting up Efans will be a matter of preference, and they will do a great job at cooling your car. I have had efans for over 5 years with no cooling issues. I found if the fuse blew out you will need a spare. If there is no fuse a jumper wire will get you going until you get to an auto supply store.

I have found that you need a vey good sensor setup. I powered mine off the ac senor that powered the stock auxillary fan with no issues what so ever for 5 years. I used 10 gauge wire, and 2 40 amp relays. I used one relay for each fan. You can wire a remote manual switch to have them to turn on manually.

The stock set up is more reliabe but only to the point of whether or not your belts are in good condition. The stock set up weakness is the shroud usaullay is broken or in poor condition, or just missing. The belts can, and do break and you will be stuck until you get one. Clutch's can and will start underperforming and you won't know until this happens. I have had new belts wear and break prematurely due too high reviving big boosting pulls. Don't dare get anything but GATES belts and hoses. When the stock belt breaks you are done until you install a replacement. I have been stuck because of this scenario a few times, and I always buy gates belts unless an emergency calls for what ever the store has until you can get a gates belt.

My car always continue to remain as cool as my stock setup, and also if I wanted to I have full ECU control of what temperature my fans will start cooling my engine. This you can not do with a stock fan.

My car warms up faster in the winter while setup on a sensor switch, and cold oil takes a longer time to heat up. It takes a while for oil to get to 180 degrees if you are running it through a full time oil cooler with a thermostat. I watch my gauges during warm up every day and oil is the last to make operating temps in the winter, and the summer.

There so far isn't any proof that suggest that a properly set up efan will under perform a stock fan setup. If there is proof I'd like to see the factual data. I feel in stand still traffic the efans have an advantage. I feel at cruising temps they are just as efficient if set up properly because my efans don't come on until I am operating at a certain engine temp. I am not debating which has more CFM's at certain speeds either because my engine temps so far have remained cooled with my efans under all conditions, and they may cool better at idle than stock.

While driving durimg the winter my fans never come on until I stop. During the summer they come on more but mostly when I am at a stand still. At a stand still in the summer they are never always on unless in stop and go NYC traffic. Even then they are intermittent. This I guess is where you may or may not have a power savings that some talk about. I am not inferring or debaing that it is a savings at all. However logically there could be in theory because of less drag from the stock belt.

All this to say there are good points, and not so good points for using both systems. The reliability of both is dependent on many variables. Efans must have perfectly set up fault resistant wiring and relays. Stock fan must have perfect running clutch's and belts with good condition shrouds in place.

I can say that there are electric fans that are working over 10 years with no issues. The ford contour fan I first bought years ago came from a 96 ford countour and lasted until I changed to my new ford Taurus single fan. I feel my only problem will be whether or not another high out put single fan will take its place......NOT!

No matter which way you go there will be at some point a need to address a failure, and for me a fan that has a blown fuse or a bad relay is easier to get me home than a broken belt or failing clutch. Yes... reliabilty seems to lean more toward the stock belt setup, however I have personal new found knowledge about electric fans that has made me an expert on making them run unless my fan has just up and died. This has NEVER happened to me!:naughty::biglaugh:


The choice is yours!

 

[IJ.]

^ Nice use of paragraphs <golf clap>

 

[QWIKSTRIKE]

]^ Nice use of paragraphs [/B] <golf clap>

wise guy....just get me some good numbers with that dayummmnn T04Z.:naughty::biglaugh::icon_bigg

 

[IJ.]

221rwhp @ 5psi/4000 rpm so far

 

[QWIKSTRIKE]

221rwhp @ 5psi/4000 rpm so far

I really would love to have that turbo in place of my gt4067r. 221RWHP at 5lbs is AWESOME.

I got a few secrets up my sleeve for the summer. As you said of S/F ever since my first upgrade I have been upgrading.lol It never seems to end as you stated!

 

[Orion ZyGarian]

Great writeup man. Yes I read all of it. I will like to add that circuit breakers are a bit more expensive than fuses, but IMO worth it. Nothing says "hell yes" like not getting stuck somewhere without fuses and a broken fuse.