Do you want Energy Suspension Poly Bushings? READ HERE.

craigh310

Supramania Contributor
Mar 25, 2008
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Gardena, California
Grimsta;976172 said:
Great, it got done. If I cant get an @$$hole machinist to fab up some bushes around here I may have to get these, I could put up a GB run

As a machinist, I have looked into this. There are a few choices for material, nylon 6/6, nylantron (graphite impreganated nylon), Delrin. Choice for the sleeve would be 304 stainless. I have not removed the suspension on my 88, but it could be possible to make some of these bushings. But, would the ride be severe?, as this material has no give.
 

alloyguitar

it's legal, i swear...
Mar 30, 2005
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knoxville, tennessee
I thought about using a ball bearing wrapped in a nylon sheath, because I think metal on metal would eventually wear a hole in the bolt for the control arm...

and honestly, I would prefer having no give, considering what i do with my car, but I think it would beat it apart.
 

gaboonviper85

Supramania Contributor
Jan 13, 2008
3,236
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Northeast Philly
it would take forever for that sleeve to wear...suspension arms don't move often enough or fast enough to generate heat either that would cause wear so a ball bearing would be a waist and you would never notice the diff.

Being a machinist myself also I have thought about it and asked around..from what I gather you could do delrin or nylon upper suspension bushing but the lowers need something to absorb impact and give a little or else it may rip the bolt right out of the body mount....I still may try it..you can order solid polly bars from mcmaster carr but you'd have to get the harder polly cause it would be like machining a sponge LOL.
 

gaboonviper85

Supramania Contributor
Jan 13, 2008
3,236
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Northeast Philly
pulling my car into the shop right now to take measurements....

darn...guess you cant take the arms off without having to have it realigned...it shall wait
 
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Asterix

Lurker of Power
Mar 31, 2005
469
36
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Vienna, VA
craigh310;977050 said:
As a machinist, I have looked into this. There are a few choices for material, nylon 6/6, nylantron (graphite impreganated nylon), Delrin. Choice for the sleeve would be 304 stainless. I have not removed the suspension on my 88, but it could be possible to make some of these bushings. But, would the ride be severe?, as this material has no give.

Nope. Neither nylon nor delrin is up to the task. There are dozens of choices, but the best bang for the buck is polyu. 316 is a better choice than 304 for the tubes.

Ball bearings are bad because of all the impact force your suspension sees. The front lower arms see large forces from braking and road impacts. That's why the lower ball joints are so big.

Asterix
 

Adjuster

Supramania Contributor
So, where are we with this?

Any more drive reports? (Now that I'm assuming the alignment is done?)

Looking at this summer to do the suspension, and it would be nice to have some more options for bushings...

Do you find they are too harsh? Or are they pretty compliant? Any more booming, or road noise?

Stuff like that.

Thanks in advance. ;)
 

suprageezer

New Member
Aug 27, 2005
778
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Southern California
Adjuster, I love them I think the only negative is the transfer of a little more road noise, but I have always liked that knowing it means more positive steering rersponse. Basically no more turn the wheels and and wait for the squish of stock buna rubber to catch up. When I have my TEMS on soft it even seems more frim not sure why though. The best thing about poly busings is I will never have to replace them. I made a set for my old van and they were still like new after 17 years. It also means my alignment will stay true.

On the above posters about nylon, delrin or Heim joints. My experience with SS heim joints on my 78 Fiat 124 that I made all the trailing arms and lateral sway bar using the Phenolic bushings they were toast in two months, so I don't think there is a more robust socket material than that. Nylon and Delrin would make every single little defect in the road surface seem like a speed bump in noise levels as did the Heim joints did, which is why the entire automotive bushing aftermarket uses polyurethane. It's not like all this wasn't figured out 25 years ago.
 

p5150

ASE and FAA A&P Certified
Mar 31, 2005
1,176
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Central Idaho
Props to suprageezer and doward for following through with this. I will certainly purchase a set as well.
 

Grimsta

Supramania Contributor
May 30, 2007
1,081
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Santa Rosa, Ca.
I"m sending in stock sway bar bushings & brackets, tranny mount and motor mounts to Energy to have some made up. I talked to the guy who did your bushings Suprageezer, Brian. So they'll make those up and hopefully have them comercially available with the control arms! :D
 

ToyoHabu

New Member
Jun 25, 2005
261
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Huntsville, Alabama, United States
Asterix;977319 said:
Nope. Neither nylon nor delrin is up to the task. There are dozens of choices, but the best bang for the buck is polyu. 316 is a better choice than 304 for the tubes.
Asterix

Polyurethane has its own engineering problems, a properly designed Polyurethane bushing will not look nor operate like a rubber bushing, the physical design of rubber bushings take advantage of rubbers characteristics that are absent from Poly

This site has a great review of the whole problem. http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic/polyurethanefriction.htm

Delrin is a good material for bushings, low friction, high creep resistance(a BIG problem with polyurethane).

when we start to raise the performance expectation of any component we will eventually hit a design or material limitation, the control rod failure you experienced is an example of this , there are some who have had to reinforce the rear sub-frame due to design/material limitation.

I am designing and fabricating my own suspension components, I have about decided to "throw away" the whole rear suspension system, keeping only the differential and wheel bearing assembly.
 

Wiisass

Supramania Contributor
Well good job believing everything you read on the internet.

Rubber bushings, operating exactly as they said in that link, will add affect the suspension. They add both spring rate and damping into the equation. Which is nonlinear and hard to account for without complex models. They do not allow the spring/damper to properly do their job.

Poly is better than rubber in the fact that it is stiffer and will handle lateral and longitudinal accelerations better than rubber. The frction between the sleeve and the bushing can be reduced if you properly maintain them. This means greasing them and keeping them clean. If this is too much for people to handle, then maybe they should not modify their cars.

Also, the amount of friction isn't as high as you would think. Even if this friction coefficient is high at the bushing, they are operating on such a long moment arm, that the amount of frictional force at the wheel center, where it actually matters, is not as high.

Delrin is a good material for bushings that operate on a single axis. In places like sway bar mounts, it works very well. In control arms, it does not. This is due to all the problems that myself and Asterix and probably some other have brought up in this and other discussions. The control arms do not pivot around a constant axis, because of this, they would not load the delrin evenly. And because the delrin does not give at all, this would put bending loads into a suspension arm not designed for that type of loading. And in extreme cases it will fail. And in normal cases, it will fatigue the arm up to the point of failure. If you drive your car and drive your car hard with delrin bushings, you will have problems at some point. Even if stuff is not breaking yet, you are adding more negative effects due to the improper use.

The control arm failure was not due to material limitation, it was due to poor design. Yes, the arm could have been weakened just due to age and use, but the delrin accelerated that wear due to the way the arm became loaded.

Suspension component design is a whole compromise itself. Rubber bushings have their pros and cons, as do poly bushings and spherical bearings. If you're really building a high performance car, then spherical bearings would be the obvious choice. Their main downfall is more direct transmittal of road noise into the chassis. But they allow the movement and control of the suspension that you want with a high performance car.
 

ToyoHabu

New Member
Jun 25, 2005
261
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Huntsville, Alabama, United States
I am also talking from experience. I have driven cars with polyurethane busings that have stuck and then unloaded in the middle of a turn, NOT FUN

Just for edification, why did TRD go with Nylon in there performance bushings?
 

Poodles

I play with fire
Jul 22, 2006
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Fort Worth, TX
Those bushings where NOT TRD, they where from a groupbuy and a dealership bought quite a few.

Properly maintained poly bushings work fine. Even better is the graphite impregnated poly bushings that are self lubricating...
 

suprageezer

New Member
Aug 27, 2005
778
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Southern California
Grimsta, Thank You for taking over, I've got a new job and have been working my ass off and just haven't been able to get the reat of the stuff to them. Can't wait to see the results.