*** This is something I took from the other thread where I explain all of my justifications. I dont feel like typing this out again.***
The whole point of what im saying is comparing this to building a 7m with forged internals that is capable of CONSISTENTLY running 500+ hp. If you have a stock setup and dont plan on modifying the 7m block past 450-500 hp then the turboed GE isnt worth your time.
Quote:
Just offhand... let's say you buy your magical 2JZ-GE for $400.
Don't bother doing what anyone with half a brain would do - crack that bitch open and replace *MINIMUM* mains/rods/rings/seals (not to mention measure out all specs)
A $400 dollar 2jzge isnt magical - you obviously havent looked for one very hard.
I did crack it open and measure everything - all components are PERFECTLY in spec and the cross-hatch is still visible on the walls. The motor had 70k miles on it. Why replace it all if there is nothing wrong with it? The rings are already mated to the cylinder walls and have been broken in. If I replaced the rings I would have to re-hone and that would take some material off the wall. Theres nothing wrong with the bearings either. Plus, all of the hardware measured perfectly in spec with the TSRM, and it is reusable.
$90 for a gasket kit
Quote:
I've got an '88 Supra.
Does that 2JZ-GE bolt up to the '88 mounts?
No, but you can buy some BIC motor mounts for $175 or put in an 89 subframe for cheap from a local u-pull-it.
Quote:
How am I mounting my CT26 to the 2JZ?
Well, if you are building a 7M with forged internals then im guessing that you probably arent going to bolt a ct26 back on it. If you AREN'T building a 7m w/forged internals then I guess you wouldn't need the 2j anyway because you have modest HP goals. Its a wash either way because for +500 hp on a 7m you are going to have to purchase an aftermarket turbo and manifold. They are the same cost for both engines....
Quote:
Turbo oiling and coolant?
What about my exhaust?
Turbo oiling supply and drainage can be accomplished from 100-175 bucks for a nice oil line set. Most aftermarket turbos dont come with water coolant but you are going to have to adapt that for the 7m anyway...... So once again, its a wash because unless you are getting some bolt on like a SP61 for the MKIII, you will have to get oil lines ANYWAY.
Quote:
Since I'm turboing a 2JZ, and it has a FFIM, how much is an intercooler?
Intercooler pipes?
Will my stock fuel lines bolt right up?
Throttle cable?
Well, the 2jzge DOESNT HAVE a FFIM. But I thought you would already know that. Regardless, $200 for an ebay intercooler setup IF you decide to go with a custom FFIM, and ffim intercoolers are easier to get than the same-side 7m style. Im not going to consider the cost of the IC or hardpipes because you could easily modify the stock 7M pipes to fit if you wanted to just get the engine running and drivable, and purchasing a set of hardpipes or intercooler, like a single turbo for 500+ hp, is something you would have to purchase for both engines anyway.
As for fuel lines we are, once again, back to the same question. Forged internals on your 7M? Yes? Why are you running a stock fuel system? Upgrades are required for both motors; its a wash.
Throttle cables are cheap and easy to come by. Which one you use would depend on the throttle body.
Quote:
How am I controlling the 2JZ ECM wise?
Im so glad you asked that. Lets get a total cost of what we REALLY need to do a 2JZGE swap with the assumption that we are going 500+ hp BEFORE we purchase our ECU. Items that would be required for the 7M AND 2JZGE for this hp level are not included. They are a wash. Ive added some things that you didnt list:
$400 - Engine
$100 - Gasket Kit
$200 - Thick head gasket
$600 - 1JZ bell housing and flywheel (new)
$200 - for r154 (if you dont have one)
$175 - Motor mounts (IF pre-89)
$1675 - For a 2jz with FORGED PISTONS ***edit - the pistons arent forged they are pressure-cast aluminum just like the 2jzgtte****, STRONGER RODS, 1.5mm BIGGER VALVES and no oiling problems. Just look at the internals of a 2jz; it is a better-engineered engine.
$1400 for an AEM
$250 for a wideband O2
Now we are at $2950 to $3325 depending on if you have an R154 or a pre-89
Thats one of my points -
Quote:
Let me put it this way - if it were that easy for the AVERAGE JOE, we'd be seeing a hell of a lot more JZ MKIIIs.
Well, most people on here arent "average joe" - they are very mechanically inclined. I assume that you are one of the more mechanically capable people because you are arguing with me about it. Am I wrong?
Quote:
For the price of "properly" dropping a 2JZ into my MKIII, I'd have a... well, I'd damn near have Duane's 7M
BTW -
$1000 in machine work
$350 for forged pistons (Probe)
$100 for rings
$120 for MHG
$100 for ARP head studs
$100 for Clevite 77 Mains/Rods
$500 for Rods and rod bolts
$100 for gaskets
$100 for Main Studs
$150 for an oil pump
$100 for Oil Thermostat or adapter and lines
About $2k ***EDIT by p5150 a VERY CONSERVATIVE $2720*** for a bulletproof 7M? What am I missing here?
Uhm you are missing connecting rods, main studs, an oil pump and a gasket kit : but I added it for you. That will run you an additional $800 combined. And your head STILL wont flow as much so you better dump another $1k on it (minimum) for port and valve work, but I guess that isnt REQUIRED to get to the 500hp mark - it only makes it easier - so we wont count the $1k.
If anybody wants to argue about flow numbers look here:
Post 28 - http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...#post214624 6
Post 19 - http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...ght=2jzge+flow
So when it comes down to it, we have a (more capable - dont forget that we didnt change the valves in the 7m yet) 600+ hp engine with an AEM for ~600 more than just the cost of building a 7MGTE.
Plus, if something happens with your support equipment that ruins your block (lean condition from FPR fail/ fuel injector fail/ poor tuning/ clogged fuel filter or injector/ running through a puddle of water and hydrolocking your engine (malloynx)/ over-revving on a patch of ice(figgie)/ over boosting due to a kinked wastegate line(a friend I know here in town)/ etc etc and I have seen or heard of all these things!!!!) you have a VERY CHEAP CORE SOURCE that you can drop in the car with a HEAD GASKET CHANGE.
Sure, this isnt worth it for everyone - but for those that say "500-600 hp is my goal", they would get there a lot faster for less money with more reliability if they would just go 2JZGE(T).
The whole point of what im saying is comparing this to building a 7m with forged internals that is capable of CONSISTENTLY running 500+ hp. If you have a stock setup and dont plan on modifying the 7m block past 450-500 hp then the turboed GE isnt worth your time.
Quote:
Just offhand... let's say you buy your magical 2JZ-GE for $400.
Don't bother doing what anyone with half a brain would do - crack that bitch open and replace *MINIMUM* mains/rods/rings/seals (not to mention measure out all specs)
A $400 dollar 2jzge isnt magical - you obviously havent looked for one very hard.
I did crack it open and measure everything - all components are PERFECTLY in spec and the cross-hatch is still visible on the walls. The motor had 70k miles on it. Why replace it all if there is nothing wrong with it? The rings are already mated to the cylinder walls and have been broken in. If I replaced the rings I would have to re-hone and that would take some material off the wall. Theres nothing wrong with the bearings either. Plus, all of the hardware measured perfectly in spec with the TSRM, and it is reusable.
$90 for a gasket kit
Quote:
I've got an '88 Supra.
Does that 2JZ-GE bolt up to the '88 mounts?
No, but you can buy some BIC motor mounts for $175 or put in an 89 subframe for cheap from a local u-pull-it.
Quote:
How am I mounting my CT26 to the 2JZ?
Well, if you are building a 7M with forged internals then im guessing that you probably arent going to bolt a ct26 back on it. If you AREN'T building a 7m w/forged internals then I guess you wouldn't need the 2j anyway because you have modest HP goals. Its a wash either way because for +500 hp on a 7m you are going to have to purchase an aftermarket turbo and manifold. They are the same cost for both engines....
Quote:
Turbo oiling and coolant?
What about my exhaust?
Turbo oiling supply and drainage can be accomplished from 100-175 bucks for a nice oil line set. Most aftermarket turbos dont come with water coolant but you are going to have to adapt that for the 7m anyway...... So once again, its a wash because unless you are getting some bolt on like a SP61 for the MKIII, you will have to get oil lines ANYWAY.
Quote:
Since I'm turboing a 2JZ, and it has a FFIM, how much is an intercooler?
Intercooler pipes?
Will my stock fuel lines bolt right up?
Throttle cable?
Well, the 2jzge DOESNT HAVE a FFIM. But I thought you would already know that. Regardless, $200 for an ebay intercooler setup IF you decide to go with a custom FFIM, and ffim intercoolers are easier to get than the same-side 7m style. Im not going to consider the cost of the IC or hardpipes because you could easily modify the stock 7M pipes to fit if you wanted to just get the engine running and drivable, and purchasing a set of hardpipes or intercooler, like a single turbo for 500+ hp, is something you would have to purchase for both engines anyway.
As for fuel lines we are, once again, back to the same question. Forged internals on your 7M? Yes? Why are you running a stock fuel system? Upgrades are required for both motors; its a wash.
Throttle cables are cheap and easy to come by. Which one you use would depend on the throttle body.
Quote:
How am I controlling the 2JZ ECM wise?
Im so glad you asked that. Lets get a total cost of what we REALLY need to do a 2JZGE swap with the assumption that we are going 500+ hp BEFORE we purchase our ECU. Items that would be required for the 7M AND 2JZGE for this hp level are not included. They are a wash. Ive added some things that you didnt list:
$400 - Engine
$100 - Gasket Kit
$200 - Thick head gasket
$600 - 1JZ bell housing and flywheel (new)
$200 - for r154 (if you dont have one)
$175 - Motor mounts (IF pre-89)
$1675 - For a 2jz with FORGED PISTONS ***edit - the pistons arent forged they are pressure-cast aluminum just like the 2jzgtte****, STRONGER RODS, 1.5mm BIGGER VALVES and no oiling problems. Just look at the internals of a 2jz; it is a better-engineered engine.
$1400 for an AEM
$250 for a wideband O2
Now we are at $2950 to $3325 depending on if you have an R154 or a pre-89
Thats one of my points -
Quote:
Let me put it this way - if it were that easy for the AVERAGE JOE, we'd be seeing a hell of a lot more JZ MKIIIs.
Well, most people on here arent "average joe" - they are very mechanically inclined. I assume that you are one of the more mechanically capable people because you are arguing with me about it. Am I wrong?
Quote:
For the price of "properly" dropping a 2JZ into my MKIII, I'd have a... well, I'd damn near have Duane's 7M
BTW -
$1000 in machine work
$350 for forged pistons (Probe)
$100 for rings
$120 for MHG
$100 for ARP head studs
$100 for Clevite 77 Mains/Rods
$500 for Rods and rod bolts
$100 for gaskets
$100 for Main Studs
$150 for an oil pump
$100 for Oil Thermostat or adapter and lines
About $2k ***EDIT by p5150 a VERY CONSERVATIVE $2720*** for a bulletproof 7M? What am I missing here?
Uhm you are missing connecting rods, main studs, an oil pump and a gasket kit : but I added it for you. That will run you an additional $800 combined. And your head STILL wont flow as much so you better dump another $1k on it (minimum) for port and valve work, but I guess that isnt REQUIRED to get to the 500hp mark - it only makes it easier - so we wont count the $1k.
If anybody wants to argue about flow numbers look here:
Post 28 - http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...#post214624 6
Post 19 - http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...ght=2jzge+flow
So when it comes down to it, we have a (more capable - dont forget that we didnt change the valves in the 7m yet) 600+ hp engine with an AEM for ~600 more than just the cost of building a 7MGTE.
Plus, if something happens with your support equipment that ruins your block (lean condition from FPR fail/ fuel injector fail/ poor tuning/ clogged fuel filter or injector/ running through a puddle of water and hydrolocking your engine (malloynx)/ over-revving on a patch of ice(figgie)/ over boosting due to a kinked wastegate line(a friend I know here in town)/ etc etc and I have seen or heard of all these things!!!!) you have a VERY CHEAP CORE SOURCE that you can drop in the car with a HEAD GASKET CHANGE.
Sure, this isnt worth it for everyone - but for those that say "500-600 hp is my goal", they would get there a lot faster for less money with more reliability if they would just go 2JZGE(T).
