Computer Stuff - Advice?

[drunk_medic]

I am in the middle of building my new computer and I am having trouble deciding on a few components. Right now, Intel and ATI seem like the top dogs so I am going that route.

If anyone has advice for me, I would like it but you must consider these points:
Must be LGA775 [have mobo already]
I prefer a 45nm process and a 1333 FSB [will match to RAM]
I don't give a rat's ass about overclocking potential, so no "get an E8400 and overclock it instead of an E8500" or "get a q6600 and overclock the piss out of it" replies.
I will not spend more than a couple hundred, so no "extreme" waste of money CPUs.

Quad Core or Dual Core does not matter TOO much. The processors I am considering most are the E8500, Q9400 and Q9550.

The downside of the Q9400 is thermals and cache size - quad-core 95W 2.5GHz, 6MB L2 Cache. The plus is having extra cores for a decent price [between the price of the two below].

The downside of the E8500 is lower cache and "only" two cores - dual-core 65W 3.16GHz, 6MB L2 Cache. The plus is lower thermal design compared to quad-cores, and it is the cheapest of the three.

The downside of the Q9550 is thermals and price - quad-core 95W 2.83GHz, 12MB L2 Cache - more expensive than the other two by over $100, but it's not a bank-breaker. The plus is having extra cores and more cache.

None of these +s or -s are breakers really - as far as thermal design goes, even the quad cores have lower thermals than my Opteron165 [probably partially due to the design process being halved from 90nm to 45].

Now from what I have read, games aren't optimized for quad cores yet, and many dual cores excel slightly in gaming because of this, however will a quad core make a huge difference if I am encoding video WHILE playing a game? The major slowdown is the reason I have not done such things in the past.


I am also torn between getting one expensive dual-slot VGA card [probably a 4870x2] or getting one mid-range single slot VGA card, and add a second one later [ie: dual 4850s in crossfire].
As it stands now, I have a x1950Pro and the only gaming I do is WoW, but when raiding with 24 other people my framerates can drop terribly. The expansion may introduce new visuals or need for a little more oomph, too. I am also interested in Fallout3, which is due out soon.
One more issue about the video cards is the amount of room available; I am building inside of a top-shelf Shuttle [SX48p2 Deluxe]. There is room for the cards and I am adding a 450W Thermaltake auxiliary VGA power supply in the 5 1/4" bay, so power for the cards won't be a problem, but I am worried a little about heat; no matter how great the shuttle cooling system is known to be, I wonder if it would have a problem with the heat from all of those components, especially two 4850s.

All in all, I want a modest gaming box that won't break the bank or turn into a space heater like my old P4 and my current Opteron. If anyone has insight or experience with any of these components, I'd like to hear. Newegg has many reviews, but I get tired of seeing people mark a processor down for the mere fact that it doesn't overclock well; that's like buying a NA and then complaining that it didn't come with a turbo.

 

[Poodles]

Crossfire/SLI setups are finicky and some games absolutely won't support them. Get the best single card you can now, and when you have the cash, buy another one of the same card (as it will be cheaper by then).

WoW is more RAM dependant than anything, and RAM speeds aren't as important as the amount of RAM you have...

And the match up these days is AMD/ATi or Intel/nVidia

 

[phoenix6]

And the match up these days is AMD/ATi or Intel/nVidia

Yeah, used to be the other way around, I recently bought a carry me over card for my older rig (which is getting a full upgrade in a few months)

I got a ATi HD2400 512m, I really like it, its been nothing but great with my AMD cpu and Ive always had nVidia up to this point.

I can run Spore pretty efficiently, fuck playing Crysis tho, this card is AGP, the processor is single core and even though I have 3gbs of ram, nah, Crysis hates this comp.

 

[drunk_medic]

Crossfire/SLI setups are finicky and some games absolutely won't support them. Get the best single card you can now, and when you have the cash, buy another one of the same card (as it will be cheaper by then).

The problem here is that I wanted to get a small form factor rig. I was thinking about building a "large" SFF rig, but no MATX motherboards supported the newest technology. There was only one SFF setup that was "bleeding edge", and that is the SX48p2 Deluxe.

WoW is more RAM dependant than anything, and RAM speeds aren't as important as the amount of RAM you have...

I'm still a XP guy, and will likely throw in 4gb [2x2GB] DDR3 memory. My concern about that is, will the RAM "limitation" in XP have an effect on DDR operation?
Right now I am running 2GB dual channel DDR.

And the match up these days is AMD/ATi or Intel/nVidia

I can't really help this; my motherboard is LGA775, and the chipset is optimized for Crossfire. At this point in time, that is a good setup, as the 4870x2 is stomping nVidia's offerings by a large margin, and Intel has been dominating AMD ever since Core2 hit the scene.

Unfortunately, my SFF has TWO available slots and they are both PCI-E 2.0 16x. There is only room for one dual-slot card or two single-slot cards [must have single-slot coolers as well to fit].
My video card choices are pretty much limited to single ATI [single or double-slot], dual ATI [single slot cards] or a single nVidia card [single or dual-slot]. I don't think this crossfire motherboard is supposed to be able to run two nVidia cards in SLI.


I found another interesting prospect for a CPU - the Q9450. It's a little slower than the 9550, but still has the 12MB of cache. It's been "discontinued" because the 9550 came down to it's price and the 9650 just came out, but you can still get them. We'll see what happens.

 

[Poodles]

As a side note, this is what I run:
-AMD Duron 1.4gig (can overclock to over 2gig when needed)
-Swiftech CPU cooler (ditched the Delta hairdryer fan and went with an Antec case fan)
-EPOX EP-8RDA3+ Pro Motherboard (nForce2)
-1.5gigs DDR RAM (1x1gig, 2x256MB)
-Gigabyte GeForce 6800 (came with a nice heatpipe passive cooler)
-Antec Nine-Hundred case (fucking love it)
-Heavily tweaked Windows Server 2003

When I used to play WoW I could play with maxed settings. Another thing I like about nVidia cards is the Digital Vibrance as most modern games use very...flat colors.

I haven't heard a whole lot of good things on the Crossfire system. Last I knew it wasn't nearly as mature as SLi. As nVidia is losing the chip wars bad right now, Crossfire may be the only option after they're gone...

 

[phoenix6]

Im back on Vista, I had a shitty passerby card for video for a while, when my older GeForce 5200LX took a crap. I couldnt use Aero, got my new ATi card, and Aero comes back! but SLOWS shit BADLY.... cant figure it out, nor do I care really...... but heres my rig

AMD Athlon XP 3200+ (not o/c'd)
Gigabyte 7VT600 Mobo
3gb DDR 3200 (3x1gb)
ATi HD2400 512mb (AGP 8x)
Antec Earthwatts 650w power supply (new)
Windows Vista Ultimate

All in all runs pretty good now, could use some tweaks I think but its ok, only complaint is Crysis runs like shit, for some reason DX10 WILL NOT work, it crashes everything all the time, but DX9 does work... I think thats partially why Crysis runs like shit.

 

[Poodles]

Personally, I'd ditch Vista as in your case there isn't going to be any advantage to using it.

My old setup was the same as this but with an ATi 9600 SE and 512MB RAM. Was able to play Doom 3 and everyone said I couldn't... OS tweaks really do make a huge difference in reducing loads on the hardware so they can be busy running the apps you want them to run.

 

[phoenix6]

yeah I agree, I need a vista tweaking program, honeslty I had XP loaded the fuck OUT with windowsblinds type styling, got bored, but Im just so used to the Vista style and approach and handling that I get bored with XP fast all the time, I think I do need a reinstall soon though.

 

[drunk_medic]

As a side note, this is what I run:
-AMD Duron 1.4gig (can overclock to over 2gig when needed)
-Swiftech CPU cooler (ditched the Delta hairdryer fan and went with an Antec case fan)
-EPOX EP-8RDA3+ Pro Motherboard (nForce2)
-1.5gigs DDR RAM (1x1gig, 2x256MB)
-Gigabyte GeForce 6800 (came with a nice heatpipe passive cooler)
-Antec Nine-Hundred case (fucking love it)
-Heavily tweaked Windows Server 2003

When I used to play WoW I could play with maxed settings. Another thing I like about nVidia cards is the Digital Vibrance as most modern games use very...flat colors.

I haven't heard a whole lot of good things on the Crossfire system. Last I knew it wasn't nearly as mature as SLi. As nVidia is losing the chip wars bad right now, Crossfire may be the only option after they're gone...

Those Antec cases are very nice! I have a P180 case and it has a great amount of room. It has plenty of fans. Still, I wanted to get a space-saver for my next PC, so SFF was the way for me.
I bought a 1TB Seagate for storage, and I am thinking about a small solid state disk for my primary, eventually. I will more than likely ghost it, and I have a few 80GB SATA drives sitting around here for a primary disk for now or as a backup if the SSD craps out [some people say they rock, some people say they don't - good to have insurance!]. I might even RAID-0 two SSDs if the reviews get a little better and the prices come down before winter time!
As for the storage drive, if I need more storage I will use E-SATA connected to an external storage tower of some sort. I hate to say "I'll never use 1TB of storage!" because eventually it happens, but that much inside of the rig sounds more than feasible for now.

My computer right now was nice for it's time. The batch of processor I got was highly overclock-able, I have good Mushkin RAM and a decent video card - but it's old tech, and it's time to move forward. I will probably post pics eventually, when the computer is built.

 

[drunk_medic]

yeah I agree, I need a vista tweaking program, honeslty I had XP loaded the fuck OUT with windowsblinds type styling, got bored, but Im just so used to the Vista style and approach and handling that I get bored with XP fast all the time, I think I do need a reinstall soon though.

I keep my computers VERY BORING! We're talking "Windows Classic" theme with a plain black background and very minimal icons. I'm running 1680x1050 and I keep my taskbar on the right side and make it auto-hide. I don't like a lot of clutter.

 

[Poodles]

Only thing that was tough was the cable routing with my case. Sadly my case isn't as quiet as it should be because of my loud ass PSU...

I've heard mixed reviews on the 1TB drives, so yes, definately back everything up just in case.

phoenix: Sounds like you like the bells and whistles of the pretty OS. I used to as well, but after seeing how much faster my games where after I switched to Server2003 and cut all that stuff out, I haven't looked back.

Plus, I hate fighting with my mom's Vista laptop. Nothing is where it used to be, or it's hidden in sub menus making things irritatingly time consuming and frustrating.

 

[phoenix6]

I agree, I need to clean my shit up, I just prefer a few NICE looking things, I dont need MUCH, just a few modern looking styles to whatever Im using.

 

[Poodles]

Mine is the classic windows look :rofl: Black and gray.

That's what backgrounds are for

Personally if I was going to go to a massive LAN party and wanted to have the "parade float" as my friend puts it, I'd dual boot with Linux as the looks are amazing but I'm lazy...

 

[phoenix6]

I had an Ubuntu dual boot in here before, I loved it, just got annoyed at trying to get my nVidia card running right and the constant headache of manually installing shit through the terminal.... just blah. Other than that, it ran like a fuckin dream.

 

[Poodles]

After talking to my techy friend (he builds PC's for fun, and also for profit), he's informed me that SOME nVidia cards work with Crossfire, but it's primarily ATI...

Really up to you, but nVidia isn't doing too good these days sadly...

 

[drunk_medic]

Another computer question! I posted this over on a SFF forum as well..
I am trying to get max power into a tiny case, and I need to spare as much room as possible.

"I know that it would void the warranty, but can anyone think of any damage that may be done by desoldering unused cable bundles from inside the PSU? I will be using a Thermaltake 450W PSU for my VGA power needs, and I won’t be needing the one strand with the two 4-pin 5v drive connectors. I have years of soldering experience, so I am not worried about the skill it would take to desolder the wires; my main concern is if this would do any kind of strange unforseen damage. In my opinion, this would make it much less cluttered than bundling and/or hiding the cables elsewhere in the case. "

Basically, I don't need the 6/8pin PCI-E power cables or the one strand of old-style drive power connectors that are coming out of this power supply. My hard drives and DVD/RW are all SATAII and the auxiliary Thermaltake VGA power supply in the 5 1/4" bay is there solely as power for whatever VGA solution I choose. I want to minimize cable clutter. What better way than to just get rid of what truly is not needed?!

Doesn't seem like any harm would be done, but I wanted a few opinions first.

 

[Poodles]

Opening the PSU case would indeed void the warranty. I just tiewrap the cables out of the way in my case...

Are you using another PSU to power just the vid cards? Dual PSU's can cause issues with grounding and can damage components (the exception is server power supplies that cost a mint). Just get one powerful PSU and skip the duals.

 

[drunk_medic]

Opening the PSU case would indeed void the warranty. I just tiewrap the cables out of the way in my case...

Are you using another PSU to power just the vid cards? Dual PSU's can cause issues with grounding and can damage components (the exception is server power supplies that cost a mint). Just get one powerful PSU and skip the duals.

I am dealing with a really small PC. I can't just "slap a huge PS in there and be done with it".

The secondary PSU is made by Thermaltake, and is made to be an aux PS specifically for VGA cards. It was designed with grounding to the main PSU in mind, and is done properly - there is no reason not to use it.

Just tie-strapping things out of the way does not seem like the best solution in regards to space saving with such a small case.

The Shuttle PSUs are supposed to be able to handle a great amount of voltage more than they are rated, but that doesn't mean I want to push it, especially when I have the room for something like this in place of where I normally would just put a DVD/RW that would see very minimal use. Any CD/DVD occasional use will be handled by way of E-SATA.

 

[Poodles]

Damn, that looks like a NIGHTMARE of a case to mess with...

Looks like they dropped the ball saying it's best for gaming but it doesn't have enough power to support it...

As said on newegg:

I would like to address Chris's comment. On August 1st 2008, almost a week after my initial review, Shuttle posted an answer to my question (and many others) regarding crossfire on the 4850. Unfortunately, they have issued a response stating the power requirements of the 4850 are two high to handle crossfire in this system. It's a real shame, now I have to decide whether I get rid of a video card, or possibly kill my power supply. At this point, I'm debating whether I will keep the system or sell it, I have to say I'm a bit dissapointed. Why supply 2 PCIe x16 2.0 slots if you can only use one without overloading the power supply???? This is their "flagship" barebones system with support of Quad Core CPUs and DDR3 1600, what's the deal?

Up to you on what to do, but a PC that size I see as a media center, not a gaming case as keeping things cool looks like it will be an issue...

 

[drunk_medic]

Damn, that looks like a NIGHTMARE of a case to mess with...

Most Shuttles are a dream, actually, as far as their reputation goes. Just about everything but the PS is modular. It is all supposed to, for the most part, come out and go in in a certain order.
Plenty room for RAM so long as you aren't using modules withhuge goofy heatpipes, and CPU cooling is built in; no need for OEM or aftermarket cooling. I'm very impressed withthis little case. It has room for everything but two double slot VGA cards.
You can expect a full build thread when I'm done