200RWHP

[Ma70.Ent]

Meh, ma70Ent. will (please) clean out all the non-specific "data." I'm glad he does a good job of keeping the good tech threads clean.

Haha, thanks! Anyways, will do right now. There's no reason to close a thread unless the conflict continues, and this one has currently stopped.

 

[IJ.]

My above post isn't whoring or bragging it's just to show that with a large Turbo low boost and a very very basic GE based build you could achieve the 200rwhp goal easily at very low RPM.

I know people have a multitude of reasons for NOT going NA/T but this approach is another alternative and you end up with a very unstressed nice to drive package that would run on Kerosene.

 

[DEFIANT 7M]

Hey, I'm sorry for my outburst guys:3d_frown: Totally not me..My "easy" button safety was off.

 

[AJ'S 88NA]

Hey, I'm sorry for my outburst guys:3d_frown: Totally not me..My "easy" button safety was off.

Wait until you get older, right IJ:biglaugh:

 

[labrat469]

I dislike turbos because all of the problems associated with them; IE turbo lag, boost leak, boosting at the wrong time, bearings going out, cracked manifolds, turbines, and housings, lubrication failures, spending hours if not days fine tuning A/F ratio, spending a lot more money on the electronics and hardware to run a boosted motor, higher fuel costs. I could go on but you get my meaning. To me turbos are just another headache I rather avoid. If I want more power then I'll get forged internals and a dual stage nitrous kit. It's alot cheaper than building, converting, or swapping a turbo motor in my car. It's there at my command waiting to be used.

 

[OneJoeZee]

I think you're exaggerating about turbos.

As long as you don't ghetto mod and half ass things, problems will be minimal. Yes, there's more moving parts and things to go wrong but it's not like adding the turbo turned a reliable car into an unreliable car.


Problems and things breaking are more often than not caused by the owner of the car, NA or turbo.

 

[cuel]

Kerosene, eh? That would be interesting... A diesel 7m...

I have a turbo build in progress(albeit slow...). It won't replace my n/a as my dd; it'll be my weekend toy. I have a donor n/a body pretty much stripped down and ready, just need to finish removing the interior, and start the clean-up work. Of course, both cars will be identical to each other on the outside

That said, I'm keeping my n/a, n/a. It has some modifications already, and I'm almost to the point where I can pull the motor, freshen up the bottom end, and put my newly built head on it. Just gotta get my 'Lude done so I can drive it for a week or 2 while I go through the GE. You can have a built n/a, reliable as a daily driver, that will go another 200k miles. As long as you maintain it properly, and don't go all out.
Which reminds me. I might need some info from you AJ. I'm gonna be getting the MaftPro soon, and might hit you up for a little help, since I haven't seen CRE around in a while. Hope every thing's alright with him...

 

[labrat469]

I think you're exaggerating about turbos.

As long as you don't ghetto mod and half ass things, problems will be minimal. Yes, there's more moving parts and things to go wrong but it's not like adding the turbo turned a reliable car into an unreliable car.


Problems and things breaking are more often than not caused by the owner of the car, NA or turbo.

I wish I was exaggerating. Everything I mentioned in my post I have seen. Turbos may add alot of power but at what cost. A lot of people sing the praises of turbo but nobody talks about their down side. I just want newbies to see both sides and weigh the risks involved. I've dealt with ghetto rigged, half ass tuned, and "Lego" built motors. And some of those motors supposable were built in reputable shops.

I'm also tired of seeing people build high output motors and then wrap their car around a vertical object because the motor had more power than they could handle on the street. Does anyone ever think about that. How much HP is too much power for the street? My motor I just built is not a street racing motor or a track racing motor. It's a daily driver that will never see above 250 HP. That's my limit that I've decided to go with. Do you actually think a +400 HP can be a daily driver? Hell no! In your quest for power you moved your power band up into the higher RPM's and you shrank the total width of your power band so now you have to work your motor harder just to get to the power band. And you're so happy that you can burn your tires from 1st gear thru 3rd gear. But what is that doing to your stock drive train? Personally I don't like tearing down a transmission and finding the teeth on the input shaft gone and first gear in more pieces than a jig-saw puzzle and second gear missing more teeth than the guys from "Deliverance".

I'm sorry for coming across like I'm some asshole who thinks he knows everything because I don't know everything. I just want people to seriously think about what they are doing when they are building their motor. And realize how each step in building their motor will affect their next step.

 

[OneJoeZee]

I wish I was exaggerating. Everything I mentioned in my post I have seen. Turbos may add alot of power but at what cost. A lot of people sing the praises of turbo but nobody talks about their down side. I just want newbies to see both sides and weigh the risks involved. I've dealt with ghetto rigged, half ass tuned, and "Lego" built motors. And some of those motors supposable were built in reputable shops.

I'm also tired of seeing people build high output motors and then wrap their car around a vertical object because the motor had more power than they could handle on the street. Does anyone ever think about that. How much HP is too much power for the street? My motor I just built is not a street racing motor or a track racing motor. It's a daily driver that will never see above 250 HP. That's my limit that I've decided to go with. Do you actually think a +400 HP can be a daily driver? Hell no! In your quest for power you moved your power band up into the higher RPM's and you shrank the total width of your power band so now you have to work your motor harder just to get to the power band. And you're so happy that you can burn your tires from 1st gear thru 3rd gear. But what is that doing to your stock drive train? Personally I don't like tearing down a transmission and finding the teeth on the input shaft gone and first gear in more pieces than a jig-saw puzzle and second gear missing more teeth than the guys from "Deliverance".

I'm sorry for coming across like I'm some asshole who thinks he knows everything because I don't know everything. I just want people to seriously think about what they are doing when they are building their motor. And realize how each step in building their motor will affect their next step.

I don't think you're coming across as an asshole at all but it sounds like you have a small chip on your shoulder about turbo cars. If NA is your choice, that's fine. I'm not telling you that's wrong. But you don't need to knock on turbo cars talking about all the extra parts and things that can go wrong to justify your being NA. And just the same, turbo owners don't need to knock on NAs to justify their choice.

And you are exaggerating about turbo cars. You make it sound like owning a turbocharged car is like rolling the dice everytime you drive and it's not. The majority of people have cars with basic boltons. There's nothing wrong with a turbo Supra with bolt ons that has been maintained properly. If it's a car that's much more modified(built motor, upgraded turbo, etc), then all bets are off. The reliability there will come from the build quality. But the same goes for a built NA motor. If the motor isn't put together right, shit's going to fail. It doesn't matter if there's a turbo strapped to the engine or not.

Unreliable turbo Supras are unreliable because of poor maintence and owners that run them into the ground. And it's not like this is limited to turbos. Plenty NA cars are just as poorly maintained and poorly treated and have reliability problems because of it too.

Browse the NA and Turbo sections. Both of them have plenty threads about people having issues with their cars.

Supras are reliable if cared for. Both turbos and NAs. The turbo model isn't inherently more unreliable than the NA.

I've been daily driving a turbo Supra for 5 years. A 7M with modest bolt ons, a 1J with modest bolt ons, and a 1J with upgraded turbos.


I'm not sure what unreliable hack job turbo Supras(are you even talking about Supras?) you're talking about but don't blame it on the fact that the car is turbocharged. Blame the owner or whoever failed to properly build the car. Turbo Supras can be and are reliabe, end of story.

 

[Ma70.Ent]

I may be N/A, but I agree with OneJoeZee. Turbo cars aren't that bad. I'll take two of my favorite quotes from around here...

There is very little wrong with this car as intended from the factory. The only thing is all of you that have gotten your hands on them. Those of you in this category know who you are, and those who are not know who you meat heads are.

However I still stand by my statement that 99 times out of 100, the weak link in the MKIII is the owner.

IMO, nothing wrong with the car, just the owner(s).

 

[AJ'S 88NA]

I might need some info from you AJ. I'm gonna be getting the MaftPro soon, and might hit you up for a little help, since I haven't seen CRE around in a while. Hope every thing's alright with him...

Anyway I can help cuel, CRE has a way of showing up when somebody really needs some help, I know I couldn't have got mine as close as I have with out his help.

Back on subject, I don't care what you are driving with no mods stock or maxed out with turbos if you don't maintain it and you drive the piss out of it everytime you drive it it's going to break. The more stuff you have on it the more it's going to cost you to fix it.

It seems there is always a weak link somewere.

 

[91supran/a]

how about this ok....i have a 1991 NA i have put an OBX header on mine with a custom 2.75 exaust and high flow cat.

so how bout electric supercharger now everyone laughs haha right but ive found a really bad ass one for cheep $110 shiped. ppl have been seeing 6-8 psi for boost im thinkin about experamenting heres the website www.electricsupercharger.net
check the forums on there. there is a dyno sheat and it shows 60 hp increase that sould be niceeeeeeeee:biglaugh: lol anyway check it out.

 

[cuel]

lol. Might work on a 'stang, Honda, or some other easily programmed vehicle. If you did attempt it, I'd advice a piggy back fuel management system, and stay away from the chip. Doubt they make one(chip) for the Supra anyway...

 

[Ma70.Ent]

Chips don't exist for our car.

http://www.4cefed.com/jetecuscam.html

 

[labrat469]

how about this ok....i have a 1991 NA i have put an OBX header on mine with a custom 2.75 exaust and high flow cat.

so how bout electric supercharger now everyone laughs haha right but ive found a really bad ass one for cheep $110 shiped. ppl have been seeing 6-8 psi for boost im thinkin about experamenting heres the website www.electricsupercharger.net
check the forums on there. there is a dyno sheat and it shows 60 hp increase that sould be niceeeeeeeee:biglaugh: lol anyway check it out.

I wouldn't waste my money on that. The ones I've seen at higher RPM's become restrictive because the air is moving faster than the blades. People have been experimenting with those since they came out in the 90's.

When some company claims high gains they put in fine print all of the other work that they have done to the motor before adding their gizmo.

Caveat emptor (Let the buyer beware)

Before adding any mods go get the machine work done first.

 

[Ma70.Ent]

Electric Superchargers...there's so much discussion on how useless they are, but I'll post up a good article I found for you, so maybe you could decide...

http://www.wildweasel.ca/HowTo/Auto/eTurbo.aspx

So now we ultimately come to the discussion on the idea of an electric supercharger.

First I want to note that this article doesn't apply to the few electrically driven compressors that have been specifically engineered for the purpose of providing short-term boost over a quarter mile. The Thomas Knight products are an example. Those kits are similar to a turbo or centrifugal blower driven by a high-amperage electric motor and require heavy duty wiring and entire banks of batteries to drive them. They do not hook up to the stock 12v vehicle electrical system and are not meant for street-driven vehicles as they are only capable of producing boost for very short periods and require a long time to recharge. These kits cost thousands of dollars and if you're considering purchasing one, I'm going to assume that the scope of this article is elementary in comparison to the knowledge you must already have.

So then, back to the topic of electrical superchargers. Understanding that forcing more air into the engine will make more power, it stands to reason that if we can place an electric fan in the intake path that will force air into it, we can make more power.

The problem with this idea is that most people who think of it really have no idea how much air gets pumped by the engine during its normal operation. The engine acts as a big air pump and is capable of moving huge volumes of air all on its own. With that in mind, any electric fan that you place in the path of the intake is only going to act as an obstacle to efficient airflow and not provide any level of boost whatsoever. In order to provide boost, the fan has to be able to force more air through the intake than is already being sucked and that's simply not going to happen with some off-the-shelf computer fan or bilge exhaust blower or whatever else you've found or had marketed to you.

Now that you realize how futile the idea of an electric supercharger is, consider the dangers. If you place something in the intake path between your air filter and the engine and that thing isn't made to be there, you now run the risk of having it break and send unfiltered pieces into your engine, potentially causing catastrophic failure. I would hope this is more than enough to discourage experimentation in this area.

As a general rule, if something seems too good to be true it generally is. Modifying a car to add power isn't a cheap endeavour and most of these sorts of shortcuts will only end up burning you in the end.

Interestingly, the company from whom I got that image above even has a small disclaimer on their site with a list of cars that showed no gain from their units. The list included GM's 2.4L engine in both the Grand Am and Cavalier Z24. I suspect it likely includes all cars from ripped-off customers who bothered to get the system dyno tested.

Notes:
I've had some questions posted about this that I'd like to address. First off, on the topic of whether one of these things will actually be a hindrance to the airflow, I did some calculations to determine the maximum airflow of a 2.4L engine. If you're interested in this, the thread can be found here. Please let me know if you find the link to be broken.

Secondly, someone just recently mentioned in my guestbook that these fans can be found rated to move upwards of 1000 cfm. I just wanted to note that those ratings are referring to the amount of air moved in an unrestricted environment, for which they've been designed. If you install one of those in your boat to bring outside air into the cabin, it may very well move 1000 cfm. If, however, you place it in a restricted path such as your engine intake where there simply isn't room to move that air without building up pressure, it will not build up that pressure that you want. While it may be capable of moving this much air past it, it is not capable of forcing that air to compress into the smaller space.

On Thursday, Feb. 24, 2006, a Mr. Ed. Walker left a note in the guestbook saying the following:

it is about the cfm, and not the psi. as long as your giving the vehicles motor more air than it can naturally draw in(cfm). read the definition of the supercharger in the dictionary. and our dyno results. www.streetfreakzperformance.com


I won't address all the spelling and grammatical errors. I'll leave that up to the reader to make their own conclusions about. As for looking up the Dictionary Definition of a Supercharger... Well the reader can do it themselves and find that my reference above is quite accurate and that nothing about an electric blower fits it. An electric blower doesn't force air and doesn't compress it.

Let's look at what he's saying though. Obviously Mr. Walker didn't read the whole page but I wouldn't expect that from someone trying to bilk people out of their hard-earned money. He suggests that CFM (Cubic Feet per Minute) is the key here, rather than PSI (Pounds per Square Inch). He's saying that flow is more important than pressure.

First of all, I stress again that the CFM rating of those electric blowers is completely irrelevant in this application and does not reflect how much air the fan will push into the engine. That number reflects the amount of air the fan can move through it in an unrestricted environment. An intake tube with an engine powerfully sucking air through it is hardly an unrestricted environment.

An industrial exhaust fan, 4 feet in diameter and turning at 100 rpm, may be capable of moving hundreds of thousands of CFM of air but if you were to stick it to your car and create a funnel leading into your intake, it wouldn't do you the least bit of good. The same goes for these little blower fans people are hawking as superchargers. As mentioned above, just because it is capable of moving 1000 (or more) CFM of air through it in an unrestricted environment does not mean that it is going to force that much air into the engine. With air already in front of it, the fan blades will just churn through the existing air causing a restriction in flow while the engine continues to suck just as much as it was before.

In a boost application, PSI is important. CFM is also important, but only in how it is applied in conjunction with the pressure. The CFM of the whole system, engine included, is key but adding an electric blower to the system does NOT increase that CFM by any significant amount no matter how high the CFM rating of that blower is.

People will tell you CFM is important, like Mr. Walker did, and here I will provide an example of how that is true with respect to the whole system.

If you take a stock engine and add forced induction via a roots style supercharger, you will increase your manifold PSI and the engine's CFM of air consumption. By forcing more air in, you obviously move more air through. Note here that electric blowers do not force more air in because they do not increase the manifold PSI. They are not a form of forced induction. Now that you've got your boost (PSI increase), let's say you go and replace your entire exhaust system with something much better flowing. The result here is that the air can pass more freely through the engine so the CFM can increase. This may bring with it a corresponding DECREASE in manifold pressure (PSI) while providing more power. Your boost gauge will read a lower amount but your engine will make more power. This is because the supercharger is still forcing in the same amount of air but the engine is consuming it faster and making more power. If you had used a turbo, the turbo would simply supply more air to keep the PSI at the level you'd set. To get your PSI back up with the supercharger, you'd need a smaller pulley.

Now an unscrupulous salesman might spin these numbers to note that with the higher CFM you're making more power even though you've got less manifold pressure (PSI). With that in mind, clearly having an electric blower with a huge CFM rating will help you.

Let's look at that scenario.

If you take that same engine stock, there will be no pressure (PSI) in the manifold. Air is simply flowing through as fast as the engine can suck it in and blow it out. With a good intake, this is fairly efficient. Now let's add our high flowing exhaust system. We still don't have any manifold pressure, but our CFM has increased. We're making more power because the engine is more efficiently consuming the air it's sucking through. Now you add an electric supercharger. They tell you that it's got some monster CFM rating but curiously, the CFM hasn't changed or, perhaps, has dropped a little. This is because the air can no longer smoothly flow through that section of your intake. They want you to believe that the fan is helping the air along, but the truth is that if the intake was free flowing beforehand then all you've done is put in a restriction. The fan can't compress the air in front of it so it can't move the CFM that it could with no restriction. In turn, the fan itself provides restriction to the overall system, bringing down the engine's CFM of air consumption.

For a little bit of amusement for all my fans here, this is taken directly from Mr. Walker's website.

The E-Turbo from Street Freakz Performance is designed for just that. At full throttle, your performance turns to 800 cubic feet per minute, equivalent of 185 miles per hour of wind being shoved down your throttle body. Or get a twin setup, which will be 370 miles per hour!

Anyone dumb enough to think that this thing is going to provide hurricane-force winds to their engine probably deserves to be suckered out of their money. That fact aside though, the speed that air flows through a fan is entirely dependant on the rpm of the fan and the amount of restriction to airflow that exists. If you put 20 fans in a row, the air flowing through them does not accelerate faster and faster through each fan. The fans later in the line will simply have less load on them as they won't have to work to move the air. It's already flowing as fast as they'd be trying to move it. Of course, if you put a powerful vacuum at the end of this chain, all those fans would just be providing more and more restriction to the flow.

Hell, just google stuff like "do electric superchargers work" and you'll find some possible answers.

 

[91supran/a]

hmmm i dont know i still might just try it just for shits and gigels. if it dont work ill just put it on my dads Stang and see wat happens. i wasent gonna install the so called "chip" they include. but ill keep you guys posted i mean it dosent look like the e-ram system at all. it looks like a output side of a turbo with an electric motor on it and i found some spects on it

air flow: 1123 (double wat a 5.0 takes in at 5,000 rpm)

power consumption: 700 watts

motor speed: 24562 rpm

thats pretty good i mean if i get anything over 3psi i got my moneys worth ill let you guys know and post some pics of it installed. ill try and save some money and get it dynoed b4 and after.

 

[Ma70.Ent]

hmmm i dont know i still might just try it just for shits and gigels. if it dont work ill just put it on my dads Stang and see wat happens. i wasent gonna install the so called "chip" they include. but ill keep you guys posted i mean it dosent look like the e-ram system at all. it looks like a output side of a turbo with an electric motor on it and i found some spects on it

air flow: 1123 (double wat a 5.0 takes in at 5,000 rpm)

power consumption: 700 watts

motor speed: 24562 rpm

thats pretty good i mean if i get anything over 3psi i got my moneys worth ill let you guys know and post some pics of it installed. ill try and save some money and get it dynoed b4 and after.

Good luck with that, lol.

 

[gofastgeorge]

Give me $100, and I will send you some magic liquid,
that when rubbed on your rear tires will make so much more HP,
your tires will spin at only 10% throttle opening.

This stuff is amazing !
After applying, I could even start off in 4th gear, and spin the tires!
:naughty:

 

[flight doc89]

Give me $100, and I will send you some magic liquid,
that when rubbed on your rear tires will make so much more HP,
your tires will spin at only 10% throttle opening.

This stuff is amazing !
After applying, I could even start off in 4th gear, and spin the tires!
:naughty:

lol, thats not your tires smoking........

these shitty little computer fan e-SC's arent gonna do shit. now, that said, i have seen a couple very nice kits (and expensive) that WILL compress like 4-6 psi boost, but you have to let it recharge between runs, and it runs outta juice after like 10 seconds or so.

just go toibo