Will timing affect horse power?

[suprafanatic]

after we put in the new built motor we couldnt get the timing to go any higer than 7* and it should be around 12*
I was just wondering if having it down around 7 will create a power loss compared to if it were at 12*

 

[jdub]

You asking if it's OK to run the motor with the timing retarded. You are kidding...right?

Is this on a stock set of cams?
Sounds like your CPS is off a tooth. Or, you didn't set the cam gears and crank damper properly when you installed the timing belt.

 

[suprafanatic]

Stock cams as far as i know..
we arent sure exactly whats going on with it, the marks on the cam gears and the mark on the crank pully line up right..
John suggested that the CPS needed to be adjusted alittle more and in order to do that i would have to take a drimmel and make the slot on the CPS alittle bigger so it will adjust more.
So does having the timing off alittle cause me to lose some power?

 

[Nomad707]

DUDE.. you need to pull the CPS out and advance it one tooth. and then adjust it.. dont let someone use a dremel on your cps.. seriously. fix it right.. make sure that your cam gears are EXACTLY aligned with the notches on the top of the timing backing plate.. make sure you are at TDC when they are aligned.. THEN insert cps and set the timing properly.

When inserting CPS be sure it that the two notches on the cps are aligned, might take a few tries to get them to align after putting them in, but this will generally have the timing at 0 and then you can adjust by moving the cps up or down.

 

[suprafanatic]

well John thinks the problem was who ever milled the head took enough off to where its messing up the timing. we cant get the 2 notches to line up cause the CPS needs to twist down more but it needs some takin out of the slot in order to do so.

and my first question still hasnt been answered..lol

 

[Nomad707]

im sure it will affect HP in a very small amount...

 

[figgie]

A change in timing will create power loss or power gain (if the motor is not knock limited). So 3 degree can net you a loss of about 30 HP (10 HP per 1 degree of timing). On the same breath advancing the engine by 3 degree can net you a 30 hp gain until MBT (Maximum Best Timing) has been reached than it will gain you nothing until detoantion sets in.

Of course this is assuming that the TCCS also deducts 3 degree from the entire ignition table.

 

[jdub]

The CPS needs to look like this:


That's with the cam gears pointing at the index and the crank damper pointing at zero.
The adjustment bolt should be in the middle range with it looking like this.

Decking the head will affect valve timing a bit, but not 3 degs.

You really don't want to run with the timing retarded, even 3 degs. You want to run at the TSRM spec...10 deg BTDC.

 

[suprafanatic]

ok. i'll have to take some pictures of mine, right now the bolt isn't in the middle, its at the very top of the slot on the CPS i know that much. the CPS is also leaking a decent amount of oil onto the manifold.

The timing is suppose to be at 10? my stock motor i had before was at 12 and the guy that worked at Soundperformance in chicago that owns and specializes in MKiii's said that his was at 14 and that mine at 12 was fine.

 

[grimreaper]

The timing is suppose to be at 10? my stock motor i had before was at 12 and the guy that worked at Soundperformance in chicago that owns and specializes in MKiii's said that his was at 14 and that mine at 12 was fine.

what do they/you use for tunning and how are you monitoring timing?
this isnt shop talk of how to extract max power. its how to get your car running right. Which from the sounds of it, the shop cant do using oem adjustments. Oem over shop tricks any day of the week if i had to pick.

 

[Rennat]

even with a 3mm headgasket i dialed my timing in perfectly... just take your time, setting the CPS can be a real pain in the ass. just make it look like the pics andyou'll be good to go.

and running incorrect timing on a stock ECU is never a good idea... its suppose to be set to 10* for a reason...

 

[suprafanatic]

ya i know its suppose to be at 10. not like im running 7* on purpose lol

 

[suprafanatic]

actualy i take back what i said earlier about not being able to go higher than 7*. at one point we hit 10* then we did somthing and the timing dropped agian. after that we couldnt get it back up to 10

 

[jdub]

I assume you are checking timing with T and E1 jumped on the diagnostic block?

 

[suprafanatic]

yes we did the jump in the diag. box

 

[IJ.]

If the head has been milled that much you need to reset the CAM TIMING using the offset pin hole then set the IGNITION TIMING..... :nono:

damn guys these are basics.

Grim: If you haven't corrected the CAM TIMING with the 3mm HG it's out (about 2.5 degree change from memory)

 

[flight doc89]

the CPS is also leaking a decent amount of oil onto the manifold.

get a sheet of gasket material and cut out a gasket for the cps.

 

[IJ.]

or replace the o-ring....... :nono:

 

[jdub]

I'm not convinced the guy's got the CPS, damper & gears lined up to begin with.

 

[IJ.]

My point is if it's had that much removed from the head he'll NEVER get it lined up as the helical gear on the exhaust cam isn't where it's meant to be.

There is a narrow window for everything to line up look at the fuss with the BC Cams being out of phase.

Add in that this guy's Damper needs to be checked yet.

As to the original question YES reducing the amount of total timing will affect HP, I'm currently down 100+ rwhp on the top end as I had to limit the total due to a fuel change.

I'm not sure how the stock ecu calculates total if it's additional to base or independant JDub or JJ would be able to answer this.