What does it take to go E85? Advantages/Disadvantages?

[IJ.]

lol.. ah well.. this thread is confusing because the physics dont match the statements. I dont run it so I cant make a qualified statement.

However.. "just the physics" of E85 suggest that the only benefit for a turbo charged/supercharged/whatever car being tuned for it is higher resistance to detonation. "the physics" that I see suggest that you would make less power with the same amount of fuel regardless of your tune.

I must be missing something.

You HAVE to flow more to make the same HP as Gas, it has better detonation resistance and you get a slight cooling effect from the volume of fuel going into the engine so you can run more spark advance/boost and make more power.

 

[Mr Bojangles]

I guess you mssed the chart showing how low the BTU content of E85.

No, its just irrelevant. You're the leader of misinformation in this thread.

Like I said, in your moms impala E85 has no benefit, but in a properly tuned boosted or high compression motor its far superior at making power because you can run more timing and boost. Those are facts that are not up for discussion or opinions.

It does require 30% more E85 to make the same amount of power than 93. But you can make more power due to above statements. BTU's mean nothing unless your using it to heat your house.

 

[Dan_Gyoba]

However.. "just the physics" of E85 suggest that the only benefit for a turbo charged/supercharged/whatever car being tuned for it is higher resistance to detonation. "the physics" that I see suggest that you would make less power with the same amount of fuel regardless of your tune.

Yep. Less power with the same amount of fuel, but the idea is that with the detonation resistance, you can burn MORE fuel, and thereby make more power.

 

[destrux]

NHTSA Campaign Number: 09V020000

www.nhtsa.dot.gov
Manufacturer TOYOTA MOTOR NORTH AMERICA, INC.
Recall Date: JAN 16, 2009
Potential Number Of Units Affected: 214570
Description ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING
Summary TOYOTA IS RECALLING 214,570 MY 2006-2008 LEXUS IS, MY 2006-2007 GS AND MY 2007-2008 LS PASSENGER VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH ALUMINUM FUEL DELIVERY PIPES (FUEL RAILS). ETHANOL FUELS WITH A LOW MOISTURE CONTENT WILL CORRODE THE INTERNAL SURFACE OF THE FUEL RAILS. AS THIS CONDITION PROGRESSES, THE ENGINE MALFUNCTION INDICATOR LIGHT MAY ILLUMINATE.
Consequence OVER TIME, THE CORROSION MAY CREATE A PINHOLE RESULTING IN FUEL LEAKAGE. FUEL LEAKAGE, IN THE PRESENCE OF AN IGNITION SOURCE, COULD RESULT IN A FIRE.
Remedy DEALERS WILL INSPECT AND REPLACE THE FUEL DELIVERY PIPES FREE OF CHARGE. THE RECALL IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN DURING FEBRUARY 2009. OWNERS MAY CONTACT TOYOTA/LEXUS AT 1-800-255-3987.

That's fine and all... but the key word there is "with a low moisture content". It's the water that's absorbed into the fuel that's corroding things, not the ethanol. Normal "E10" gasoline will do the same thing, since that's enough ethanol to absorb any water that makes it into the tank.

Don't fill the car up with more fuel than you'll use in a week or two and you'll be fine. Some people like to have a full tank all the time even if they only burn through 18 gallons in 3 months, and those are the people that will end up with excessive moisture in their fuel.

...and all this crap about BTU's. You'd better tell all the guys running drag cars and other race cars on methanol that they'd be better off with pump gas because it has more BTU's.

BTU's only matter if you're worried about fuel weight or fuel economy. That's why Audi built diesel powered Lemans cars. Not because diesel is the best way to make a bajillion HP.

 

[Nick M]

No, its just irrelevant.

The BTU content of fuel is irrelevant. Ok.

 

[3p141592654]

That's fine and all... but the key word there is "with a low moisture content". It's the water that's absorbed into the fuel that's corroding things, not the ethanol. Normal "E10" gasoline will do the same thing, since that's enough ethanol to absorb any water that makes it into the tank.

Ummm, Really? What does "with a low moisture content" mean to you, apparently not what it means to me? :aigo:

100% chemically pure ethanol has a "low moisture content"!

 

[Mr Bojangles]

The BTU content of fuel is irrelevant. Ok.

Yes, for this discussion or else according to your chart we should all run diesel since it has a higher BTU rating than gasoline.

 

[figgie]

lol.. ah well.. this thread is confusing because the physics dont match the statements. I dont run it so I cant make a qualified statement.

However.. "just the physics" of E85 suggest that the only benefit for a turbo charged/supercharged/whatever car being tuned for it is higher resistance to detonation. "the physics" that I see suggest that you would make less power with the same amount of fuel regardless of your tune.

I must be missing something.

psst

it is not physics

it is chemistry 101

you don't ever tune any fuel in a car to gallons

you tune to lambda

at the SAME lambda of 1. E85 will make MORE power (and consequently has more BTU) than the same lambda of Gasoline. And the same falls true for Methanol v Gasoline or Nitromethane V Gasoline.

On a volume basis, gasoline does have the BTU content crown but that would be one dead engine if we tuned to gallons/Liters

 

[figgie]

It does require 30% more E85 to make the same amount of power than 93. But you can make more power due to above statements. BTU's mean nothing unless your using it to heat your house.

negative

It require 30% fuel to keep the motor from popping from running too lean not to make power

what 30% more fuel does is puts it around the lambda = 1 range which is how you tune any fuel anyway.

At Lambda = 1. E85 has more energy content (due to having to have more fuel) than the equivalent lambda = 1 of gasoline.

hell the math is right in the AFR equation

14.7 grams of air to 1 gram of Gasoline
9.8 grams of air to 1 gram of E85
Methanol is 6.x lbs of air to 1 lbs of fuel

since the engine injest the same amount of air regardless of fuel. then the fuel needs to be adjusted

so put another way

14.7 grams of air to 1 gram of Gasoline
14.7 Grams of Air to 1.5 grams of E85
14.7 Grams of air to 2.67 grams of Methanol

starting to see the math?


BTU are the stored energy content of any thing that is combustible.
That includes wood, paper, water, gasoline, e85, Diesel, Kerosene, etc

 

[Nick M]

Yes, for this discussion or else according to your chart we should all run diesel since it has a higher BTU rating than gasoline.

No, the discussion is E85 which has lower power levels than gasoline. You claimed it is higher, when it isn't. It isn't debatable, and you are filling peoples heads with nonsense. And it is politically foolish to buy it.

 

[figgie]

No, the discussion is E85 which has lower power levels than gasoline. You claimed it is higher, when it isn't. It isn't debatable, and you are filling peoples heads with nonsense. And it is politically foolish to buy it.

hold up.

on a per gallon basis. Correct.

On a lambda basis. Incorrect.

Politically, not my issue as that is what ALL of those capital hill folk get paid 6 digit salaries to contend with.
the math (chemistry) does not lie. No way to fudge it without introducing errors.

 

[Mr Bojangles]

No, the discussion is E85 which has lower power levels than gasoline. You claimed it is higher, when it isn't. It isn't debatable, and you are filling peoples heads with nonsense. And it is politically foolish to buy it.

I didnt claim it was higher at all. You clearly have some weird hang up against E85. I said on a boosted or high compression car that is properly tuned for it you can make more power safer on E85 than 93. Which is 100% true and fact. You can't argue that. ALthough there are idiots that argue scientific facts like evolution everyday and I think that's what's going on here too.

Your political views have nothing to do with this discussion.

 

[IJ.]

Don't know about the USA but e-85 here is costing a LOT to produce, only reason it's cheaper than Gas is Govt Subsidies...

Economies of scale might change this in time...

 

[IBoughtASupra]

Nick,

Explain to me....

2JZ lays down 550 on 93. Then on E85 with the same boost level it did a hair past 600 with minor adjustments. Ended up at 7xx on E85.....you can't get that on pump.

 

[figgie]

Nick,

Explain to me....

2JZ lays down 550 on 93. Then on E85 with the same boost level it did a hair past 600 with minor adjustments. Ended up at 7xx on E85.....you can't get that on pump.

I know John reed tested this out. Just adjusting for Fuel increases but leaving all else the same (timing, same engine, same fuel pump, same car etc). The power output increased which coincides with the math.

 

[Mr Bojangles]

I'm glad to see there are some voices of reason in this thread.

 

[Grandavi]

Okay then, I think I grasp it now.

Generally speaking (ignoring any potential ill effects of E85 on a MK3 fuel system because there are no "hard facts", just warnings to be aware...) E85 allows you to do adjustments to the engine that will allow for more HP over normal pump gas. Generally speaking its the same effect as meth injection. You cannot easily top the 600 HP lvl without meth injection because your engine (7MGTE and the JZ sister) will be too prone to detonation.

So... E85 is better for a tuner.
Pump gas is better for a normal daily driver.
(with caveats about possible fuel system issues with the E85 being corrosive to the fuel delivery system)
Politically, the argument is mute. There is very little "political" that isn't stupid.

If your going to track your car and you have the option of running E85 (after a tune for it) or pump gas, your better off with E85 (with a tune).

Exhaust-wise, is there any potential issues or benefits with E85 in regards to the turbo or catalytic converters? I read that there are less emissions, but I keep remembering being told not to run ethanol in my Turbo LeBaron in the late 80's (wood alchohol I believe).

In general, I think the world will be leaning towards this type of fuel "replacement" as the technology develops because it is a renewable resource and it bascially begins the journey to "synthetic" gasoline.

 

[Mr Bojangles]

You got a surprising amount of truth out of all that. I'm glad it was all of some help. As far as cats go, I have no idea because nobody I know on E85 has them and I dont want to speak without first hand experience.

 

[Dan_Gyoba]

I was told that alcohol was a bad fuel for turbocharged vehicles back in the day because it tended to burn hotter. Alcohol enhanced fuels were blamed for a lot of scorched valves, as well as detonation due to hot edges. Colder plugs were routinely recommended as well. Add in the fact that those turbos were oil cooled only, and it was "common sense" that hotter temps would be a big problem.

I know that the effects of alcohol enhanced fuels on aluminium parts had been known at the time, and I know people who had things damaged by running earlier enhanced fuels. (Corroded valve seats in a carburated engine aren't fun.)

I don't know of the veracity of the reasoning, but there have certainly been advances in the technology of blended fuels. (I think they used to use methanol as well, and not ethanol.)

 

[figgie]

I was told that alcohol was a bad fuel for turbocharged vehicles back in the day because it tended to burn hotter. Alcohol enhanced fuels were blamed for a lot of scorched valves, as well as detonation due to hot edges. Colder plugs were routinely recommended as well. Add in the fact that those turbos were oil cooled only, and it was "common sense" that hotter temps would be a big problem.

I know that the effects of alcohol enhanced fuels on aluminium parts had been known at the time, and I know people who had things damaged by running earlier enhanced fuels. (Corroded valve seats in a carburated engine aren't fun.)

I don't know of the veracity of the reasoning, but there have certainly been advances in the technology of blended fuels. (I think they used to use methanol as well, and not ethanol.)

That is the problem with hearsay

Alcohol burns COOLER than gasoline.

Burned valves? Best guess, running lean on alcohol, detonation. On a properly fueled system, the Alcohol serves as a temprature reduction (why Meth Injection works well when done right).

Methanol is magnitued worse for corrosion than ethanol forget comparing to E85. Also keep in mind that Methanol requires a lubricant be added. E85 has the lubrication in the form of gasoline (that 15% gasoline is really good for that).