Welcom to the industry, Tesla Motors

[drunk_medic]

I hope that they extend the mileage or decrease the charge time. I was able to drive over 1500 miles in 24 hours, and that includes stopping for gas, food, bathroom, etc. I don't see that happening for electric/alternative fuel vehicles anytime in the near future. It's going to take a lot to sell me on these technologies. For the moment, they are merely a novelty to me.

 

[bonus12]

I hope that they extend the mileage or decrease the charge time. I was able to drive over 1500 miles in 24 hours, and that includes stopping for gas, food, bathroom, etc. I don't see that happening for electric/alternative fuel vehicles anytime in the near future. It's going to take a lot to sell me on these technologies. For the moment, they are merely a novelty to me.

1500 miles in 24 hours!? thats an average of 62.5 MPH, assuming you didnt sleep! i think electricity will be there someday. for now though, the roadster can only go 250 miles. the sedan in 2008 will probably do around 500.

who knows what the third model will do...

 

[Adjuster]

500 charge cycles. Using your example of every 5 days of use adding up to "one" cycle, this adds up to about 73 cycles per year, assuming you do no more driving than your commute to work, and the trip to the grocery store.

Reality is, people use their cars for long trips on weekends, and medium trips during the week. Use of cars outside of commuting to work tends to add up to more miles than you think.

Let's use the reality in leasing that average people drive somewhere between 10 and 15 thousand miles per year. If you belive they can get 100k out of this battery pack, that's an expected life of 10 years on the long end, and 6.6 years if you drive 15k. Let's look at my average mileage, where I put 20 to 25k on my cars every year. (Here in the West we tend to drive more since there is so much space between cities out here.) So, 5 years or 4 depending on how much I drive that year....

Now let's look at the car. It's a re-packaged Lotus Elise. (A GM product, and a very cool chassis made of aluminum and other lightweight building materials.)

The standard Elise is quite a performer. http://www.lotuscars.com/
0-60 in 4.9 or 4.7 seconds depending on your options.
0-100 in 12.9 seconds.
Top speed of 150mph.
MPG of 24 city and 29 Hwy.
Weight of 1984lbs...
Price is about 43,000.00 USD.

Ok, let's compare the Tesla version of that same car.
About 4 seconds 0-60.
135mpg...?
250 miles per charge..
Claims about 1 cent per mile cost?
And the price? Ok, here in Boise, it's 108,000.00 USD. (I have to pay 8k more because I don't live in the silly Bay Area.)

Yikes! this car has a price that is 65,000.00 more than the gas powered one?

Let's put this into perspective.
At 3.00 per gallon, that's 21,666.66 gallons of gas that I could burn in the "normal" Lotus Elise before I even come close to spending 1 cent per mile on power to run the Tesla. Let's say I drive like a madman, and only average 25 miles per gallon...

Ok that works out to 541,650 or so miles I could drive the Elise before I could even start to use my 1 cent per mile on the Tesla...

Is anyone here confused? Does anyone here actually think electric cars are suddenly going to take over and change the market anytime soon?

Now that gas is down to 2.60 a gallon, it's even more stupid to spend 108,000.00 on the Tesla than before. Want more power on the Lotus? Just add a turbo kit for the Toyota motor it's running, and your there!

Want more power on your Tesla? Buy a Lotus.

Besides, I like the sound of buring fuel in my engines!

Sorry to put a damper on your festivities, but this re-packaged Lotus is not all it's cracked up to be, and will not take over GM, Toyota and others in any shape or form. It will be a car for the uber rich, and uber stupid. (Better known as ULEE's the world over.)

There was one other statement you made that is totally wrong. That's that sports cars use more power than sedans so the range of the sedan would be greater than the sports car?

Range has to depend on how much weight your hauling around, and how much aerodynamic drag the vehicle has. The smaller, lighter sports car has minimal amounts of weight and drag, so it's going to have greater range v/s a larger, less areodynamic vehicle, so range will only go down if the battery pack stays the same. (Assuming the motor size and it's power use is similiar.)

I suppose if you underpower the sedan to the point where it can barely move, it might run longer on the same power pack, but who would want to drive that? Not me.

 

[Joel W.]

Does anyone here actually think electric cars are suddenly going to take over and change the market anytime soon?

Yup...

And all your nay saying can not stop it, no matter how hard you try...

 

[Adjuster]

Prove me wrong and buy one

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

That's a lot of math.

 

[Joel W.]

Prove me wrong and buy one

I don't feel like fighting with you because you will just get me banned again.... You asked for an opinion and I gave you mine.

Be thankful...

 

[trucker]

Biodiesel sucks. I maintain semi's for a few local truckers and they have to change fuel filters 3 times as often as those who don't run bio. Once the temp outside drops below 20F they are changing filters once a month instead of twice a year. If there was an anti-gel additive that worked for bio it would be just as good or better than regular diesel, but so far nobody has found it.

?????wtf???

a pm always involves changing BOTH fuel filters EVERY TIME

pm 15-30k depending on useage is every month on a road tractor.

i'm not going to start shit, but if thos guys are changing filters 2x a year, how can they even come close to properly maintaining thier trucks?

the cummins isx series needs filter change every 12000 mi, which is between pm's otherwise fuel mileage can be cut by as much as half. no one is going to abuse thier equipment like that.

as far as biodiesel, i have never noticed a difference other than the fact that around here it's typicaly 2-3 cents per gallon higher, i guess i might if i only changed my filters only twice a year.


and cold weather gelling is typical for diesel, even premium will gell if it gets cold enough,i have spent more than a couple of cold assed hours changing filters on the side of the road,thank god for the electric pumps on isx's


i guess this is kinna off topic for this thread...sorry

 

[Adjuster]

Not really. Let's talk about cold weather and electric cars. (Heck, let's actually use our hypothetical electric car in the real world.)

Ok, you live in the USA, but are not part of the "Crazyfornia" crowd, so you get 4 seasons, and it's wintertime. Today's temp is -10 F, and it's nasty cold.

You get up to go to work, and unplug your Tesla that's been charging up all night long on cheaper nighttime power.

Mmmm. The indicator says full power, but dang it's COLD! Hit that "Instant heater" button and let's get this vehicle warmed up...

As your driving along, now out of your garage, the battery pack has to deal with being cooled down, reducing the effectiveness of the battery, and it's having to deal with providing you with max heat, and power the motor to move the car. You decide to turn on some tunes while commuting to work, and also hit the defrost to clean off the windshield that is starting to fog up.. (this turns on the AC, and uses even more power. First you cool the air, and remove some of the mosture, and then heat it up and blow it over the windshield. All of this takes power.)

You make it to work at Save the Planet Inc., and you have a 1/2 tank of battery power indicated! "Yay! I don't have to ride the bus again!" you muse. You would have parked in a "power" spot to recharge, but they were all full, and besides, they charge you double for using power during the day to help encourage more environment friendly nighttime vehicle recharging.. "I have plenty of power, and can charge it tonight at home." You conclude.

You work your job, and decide to walk to lunch to conserve energy. After a nice meal of bean sprouts and humas, you wash it all down with herbal tea, and get back to work saving the planet. But not before you seperate your lunch trash into the paper, plastic and aluminum can bins... Your amazing!

5:30pm rolls around, and it's time to go home. Your Tesla super green machine is waiting for you in the parking garage.

You get in, and find the car has been sitting there for hours. The battery pack is now ambiant air temp, -10 F. It's gone from indicating 1/2 a full charge to about 1/3 left. (Barely.) You decide it's going to improve as it warms up with use... and get in to drive home...

BRRRR! "It's F'n freezing in here!" And your breath is fogging up the windows, so you hit the "defrost" and crank up the heat to max again. Oh, and I really want to listen to my ipod, so I plug it into my special base, and find the songs. (Not thinking that my ipod is also charging while I'm listening to it....)

About 1/2 way home, you get a warning beep. (Ok, so I'm making this up, I don't know if the Tesla has a warning beep, but it's possible... LOL) This tells you battery power is dangerously low, and you need to exit traffic and find power now. You decide it's just a few more miles, and keep pressing on.....

The car runs out of power, and it's dark, so you can't see either now with no light at all. You coast to the side of the road, and whip out the cell phone... "Dang it" no service! Dodging the smelly, nasty and "fossil fuel burning" cars on the road, you manage to cross back over to the side of the highway, and find a solar powered call box. Your really cold now since your stylish hemp jacket and organic cotton clothes are more for fashion than keeping you warm like wool..(You would never wear an animal by-product..murderers!)

You lift the handset and WTF? It's not working, the ice and snow buildup on the solar panel for the past few weeks has slowly killed this box, and it will not even give you a dial tone...

You try and waive down a passing motorist, but nobody stops to help you.

You decide to walk, and head for the nearest exit and side road. You barely make it to the 7-11 in a crappy part of town. The "homies" are looking at you pretty close, but your confident your local law enforcement is going to keep you safe...

You ask for change? "I only carry plastic" you state.. and you have to buy a hot cup of coffee since they don't have herbal tea, and then use your change to call for a tow. The tow company says it will be a few hours before they can get to your car, and there's a 100.00 surcharge for being an EV since they have to make sure the driver is not going to be killed by your car.

You decide to take the bus home, and slog out to the bus stop. "Hey! I know this place" you exclaim. You were here this summer on the hottest day of the year... (Your use of AC killed the battery, and you forgot to plug in the night before, and thought it would make it on 1/2 a charge...)

While waiting at the bus stop, the "Homies" from inside the 7-11 come out and join you. They ask for your wallet, watch and shoes! You tell them the police will get you for this, but they pull guns and you end up losing your hemp jacket as well! Bastards! (You would never think of owning a gun, much less using one to protect yourself...) Now your peniless, cold and stuck in the bad part of town! You can't even walk back to your cold, dead EV ubercar since you don't have a jacket or shoes...

Your fucked.
You were fucked when they sold you the 100k EV.
You were fucked when you were indoctrinated that the ULEE lifestyle is best.
You were fucked when they told you gun control was good, and owning a gun was bad.

It's your choice, but I'd rather not be fucked. (Unless she's got nice curves, and a great smile )

 

[Adjuster]

Oh, I almost forgot, the "biodiesel" city busses all froze up, and you did not make it home till really late because only the old busses were working...

You got to ride home in a crowded, cold and smelly old bus... Your so intelligent for saving the environment!

 

[bonus12]

500 charge cycles. Using your example of every 5 days of use adding up to "one" cycle, this adds up to about 73 cycles per year, assuming you do no more driving than your commute to work, and the trip to the grocery store.

Reality is, people use their cars for long trips on weekends, and medium trips during the week. Use of cars outside of commuting to work tends to add up to more miles than you think.

Let's use the reality in leasing that average people drive somewhere between 10 and 15 thousand miles per year. If you belive they can get 100k out of this battery pack, that's an expected life of 10 years on the long end, and 6.6 years if you drive 15k. Let's look at my average mileage, where I put 20 to 25k on my cars every year. (Here in the West we tend to drive more since there is so much space between cities out here.) So, 5 years or 4 depending on how much I drive that year....

you're pretty wrong. Driving only 50 miles is only a partial discharge, roughly using 20% of the charge. If a driver continues to drive 50 miles every day and recharges every night, then after 5 days they would complete the equivalent of one charge/discharge cycle.

100,000 miles is 100,000 miles. that is a lot of miles. besides, would you drive a ferarri, for example, 10-15k per year? tesla is coming out with a sedan in 2008.

 

[bonus12]

Not really. Let's talk about cold weather and electric cars. (Heck, let's actually use our hypothetical electric car in the real world.)

Will the Tesla Roadster work on a cold day?

Yes, the Energy Storage System (ESS) has a heater that will keep the batteries warm in a cold climate.


so that debunks that problem.

 

[Joel W.]

This is why we need to find another alternative to Adjusters ways right now!!!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1130731388742388243&q=the+oil+factor&hl=en

Edit: I am selling my supra if anyone in Washington is interested in it let me know and I got a new job so I won't be around much anymore... Take care guys..

One last vid to scare the shit out of you before I go...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1oPEfa9Lws&mode=related&search=

Here is one to give you hope...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3953634519146582505&q=zero+point+energy

 

[bonus12]

From the Website:


Becoming Energy Positive
I should mention that Tesla Motors will be co-marketing sustainable energy products from other companies along with the car. For example, among other choices, (they) will be offering a modestly sized and priced solar panel from SolarCity, a photovoltaics company. This system can be installed on your roof in an out of the way location, because of its small size, or set up as a carport and will generate about 50 miles per day of electricity.

If you travel less than 350 miles per week, you will therefore be “energy positive” with respect to your personal transportation. This is a step beyond conserving or even nullifying your use of energy for transport – you will actually be putting more energy back into the system than you consume in transportation!


TESLA'S PLAN:

1. Build sports car (the roadster)
2. Use that money to build an affordable car (codenamed whitestar. coming out as early as '08)
3. Use that money to build an even more affordable car
4. While doing above, also provide zero emission electric power generation options

 

[Adjuster]

Bonus, you missed the point entirely.

Factor in the cost of your electric Lotus, AKA the Tesla sports car, and you could buy gas for many thousands of miles AND a fully equiped Lotus of your choice.

I think it's nice that someone is doing this, but the market demand for this product is not here yet, and will not be as long as hydrocarbons are plentiful, and lower cost per unit of energy.

Nice does not equal smart however. There is no general market for EV's in the USA, or elsewhere. You can try and create a market with laws like Crazyfornia did, but your only going to end up dumbing down the rest of that market. (Just like what's going on in CA right now. Sales of normal gas burning cars subsidizes the leasing of true EV's, and then CA realized that the EV would not become a reality any time soon, so they relaxed and now support the hybrid vehicles.)

I know technology has improved, but I helped build solar panels for use on remote buildings in areas where there was no power grid, and everything in the building had to be powered with the sun, or generators. These panels ended up on very nice multimillion buck homes/cabins in the mountains, some with no real roads leading to them. Truely back country cabins with solar power, and geothermal based heating systems. (Storing the heat in the ground, then radiating it back into the home at night, and all the power for the pumps, lights and other things you need in a home were run off solar power and battery racks.) To put this into perspective, these homes were generally less than 3000 sq ft, but cost 2 or more million dollars back in 1985. Today they would be even more expensive. A 3k home in 1985 in CA was about 250k if they were on a normal road, with normal power, in the suburbs near a normal city. Oh, and the land was extra above the cost of the home on the 2 million price tag.. People with serious money were/are the only ones living the "off the grid" lifestyle you mention.

The average family in this country will never live like that. The poor surely will not, and the uber rich will just play with it untill the "green" fad is done, and they move on to other intrests.

I have a car with a "fad" sunroof that has solar panels in it. I love having the cool interior on the hottest days. (A fan is run by the power, and it circulates air into the car to keep it as cool as possible. I also think it helps to keep my battery charged up as well.) The down side is that option is very rare because the expense up front to buy it was insane. (Like 3000.00 more than a standard sunroof.)

The reason I made fun of this car is the "insane" price of this re-packaged Lotus. Do you really want to be the one that pays for the development of this technology? I don't.
I also don't think it's viable yet. Create a cold fusion powered car and I'll be all over that idea. Or make it powered with a form of power we have not seen yet, and I'm there too.

The reality is, hydrocarbons are currently the best way to haul around enough energy to power a vehicle using existing technology. Oil based energy rules, and we will not get rid of our use of plastics, medicines, fuels and other uses we have refined "crude" oil into at this point in history.

The aluminum and steel was mined using diesel powered trucks, then refined with power from either a hydroelectric dam, or coal power plant. The resins, plastics and fiberglass used to make the body are produced from oil, or use power from oil to be created. Same for the tires, brakes and all the other systems used in the Tesla car. (As well as all the millions of others produced annually.)

These are a few reasons why I think the claim that EV's will take over the market in 10 years might be slightly off base. (OK, so more than slightly, that idea is way off base. Lightyears off base in my opinion.)

 

[bonus12]

The reality is, hydrocarbons are currently the best way to haul around enough energy to power a vehicle using existing technology. Oil based energy rules, and we will not get rid of our use of plastics, medicines, fuels and other uses we have refined "crude" oil into at this point in history.

i think you miss the point entirely of an electric car. one word: ENVIRONMENT!

and there is no such thing as a green fad. the only reason there is life on earth is the perfect climate. when the climate changes, we are in trouble. guess what, adjuster. we are changing the climate, and we must change it back. the answer? renewable energy!!

the tesla's efficiency is equalivalent to 135 mpg. yes, it uses fossil fuels somewhere along the line, but the tesla is creating a new power infrastructure. solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, more. technology that is expensive now will soon be cheap.

remember when bad computers costed thousands of dollars? now, you can get a computer with better technology for $500!!!

you do get my point, right adjuster?

 

[Adjuster]

Bonus, do you really belive what your saying? (or what the ULEE's are shoveling is more like it.)

"Perfect climate?"

"we are changing the climate"

Let's be perfectly clear that I do not think the whole theory of carbon dioxide caused global warming holds any water at all.
The sun controls the climate, and has for billions of years. Man has little, or nothing to do with this warming and cooling of the planet now, or thousands of years ago. We will have little to do with it thousands of years from now too. 300,000 years of ice core data proves that the climate warms and cools and it was long before "man" started burning our little portion of hydrocarbons. Man puts less c02 into the atmosphere than nature, and again I go back to the fact that the small amount of c02 relative to the entire atmosphere leads me to believe that "man made global warming theory" is just a way to scare people into donating money to foundations "commited to stop global warming" and excercise in futility BECAUSE THE SUN CONTROLS THE WEATHER.

Don't belive me? Watch what happens right now. We are going into fall and winter and the Northern latitudes will get cold, and the Southern ones are warming up. It's due to the earths relative position and tilt to the sun, but it's also due to the sun putting out a somewhat steady amount of energy at this point in time. IF the sun suddenly put out more, or less energy, it would affect our weather very quickly, and we will either get warmer, or enter the next ice age.

Here's more. Water vapor is by far the best heat trapping "greenhouse" gas, yet your ULEE friends don't have a PR effort to limit this most common of the "greenhouse" gases. Water vapor is also found in quatities around the globe, and does have a direct effect on weather and tempature, unlike c02 that has NO effect due to it's low concentration compared to other greenhouse gases. To put it all in perspective, the amount of c02 in the atmosphere is 3 inches of 100 yards, and the amount added since 1940 is 3/8's of one inch, yes, about the width of a pencil. Of that 3/8's of an inch, man has "caused" about 3% of 3/8's of one inch in 300 yards! BIG FUCKING DEAL! There is so much more water vapor to be considered it's not even a comparison. And water trapps heat about 70% better than c02. So you have massive amounts of heat trapping water vapor and ULEE's say nothing, but you have miniscule amounts of man generated c02 and they raise billions of dollars from scared humans. (There are some really stupid people for sure, and money is no measure of intellegence.)

Ok, back to the EV Tesla, AKA re-baded Lotus. It's a neat car. It's not competitive price or performance wise, but it's a neat car.

Computers were expensive, and costs have dropped many times since the 80's when PC's were introduced. The demand for PC's is stil huge because they do things nothing else can. And they have improved thousands of times performance wise.

EV's are expensive, and I don't really see costs dropping much, but they will go down some. The demand for EV's will be minimal because competing with a common, and available fuel source with more energy per lb hauled around = better performance and range for the hydrocarbon based vehicle v/s EV's. When EV's are truely competitive range and performance and SIZE wise, you will see the market for them grow accordingly. Untill then, little tiny cars like the Lotus/Tesla with minimal range will have a minimal market size.

It does not matter how "green" it is, or how friendly they market it, the total amount of people with limited intellegence and lots of cash is only so large. "Joe sixpack" will not buy this EV till it's easy to charge, and affordable, AND out performs what he can buy powered on hydrocarbons.

You get my point, right bonus12? It's a neat car, but nothing more IMHO.

 

[bonus12]

It's not competitive price or performance wise, but it's a neat car. QUOTE]

ummm... you're wrong. 0-60 = 4 seconds

Price = 89K

compare that with a ferarri or another high performance vehicle. i think the corvette Z06 is the only car that can beat these numbers --- but you have to pay for gas an pollute the earth!!

 

[Doward]

We need to get off of oil.

Not because some stuck up hippie says so.
Not because some well-to-do engineer says so.

We need to, just because it is FACT that oil will eventually run out.

Do we want to be standing around holding our dicks when that happens? I'd like to think that technology will have progressed enough so that it is AFFORDABLE FOR ALL when the time comes to get completely off of oil.

BTW, anyone that thinks electric cars are completely oil-free is wrong. Something's got to lubricate those bearings - it may not be motor oil, but I'm 99.9% certain it's good old petroleum-based grease.

 

[wingman]

You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get myself a 1967 Cadilac El Dorado Convertable. Hot pink! With whale skin hub caps, an all leather cow interior, and big brown baby seal eyes for headlights! YEAH! And I'm gonna drive around in that baby at 115 miles per hour, getting one mile per gallon, sucking down Quarter Pounder cheeseburgers from McDonalds in the old-fashioned non-biodegradable Styrofoam containers. And when I'm done sucking down those grease-ball burgers I'm gonna wipe my mouth with the American flag, and then I'm gonna toss the Styrofoam containers right out the side and there ain't a Goddamn thing anybody can do about it!