Veitnam Part 2?

[lanky189]

ive come across way too much stuff in this thread that is just incinderary tinder waiting to spark.

Wars for Oil,
Islam declaring war on us..etc etc...


Fella's every time one of these threads comes up..it ends poorly...lets just agree to disagree and avoid these topics ok?

 

[lanky189]

i'll be watching.....place nice fella's

 

[rakkasan]

i'll be watching.....place nice fella's

Thanks, Dad!!!:biglaugh:

 

[SupraDerk]

Oh my god. I had so much good stuff written and fucking firefox screws me again!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I'm not going to retype everything so I'll just hit some key points.

Didn't read the last 6 pages, posts were too long, but I'm gonna talk about from Vietnam to now.

Vietnam, we were actually winning this war until politicans used it as a political platform to win seats in our government. It was really the first war that the media could show unfolding in real time, and people couldn't stomach what they saw. Politicians used this new sensationlism caused by the media as a leg for their political stance and in turn, screwed us royally.

The chain of command for our military changed as a result of the politicans and it's pretty much still this way. Instead of our commanders on the ground choosing targets, making war plans and executing them...politicians now picked the targets, told the president, the president then okay'ed them, and then the commanders were told, then the commanders made the plans, and tried to execute them.

Only problem with that...when a target was finally chosen, the target was no longer there. Sensationalism and micromanagement lost us Vietnam and for the most part has made us lose every war since.

The result of this practice since Vietnam, half assed battles, half resolved conflicts...resentment against the US...and long drawn out wars. In today's age any military of a modern society should really be able to win a war in months, due to more devastating weapons and higher accuracy and precision. But thanks to politicians having to have their greedy hands in the pot...we end up with problems...problems...problems.

The media doesn't help either. Two things run our country now...ratings and money. We have practically ZERO leaders left here with any kind of morals or integrity. From a young age we're taught that winning is success and to kind of win by any means neccessary. Unfortunately, this translates into everything EXCEPT for war for whatever reason. We go in with no goals and no intention to win...without the intent of victory, defeat is only a matter of time.

But anyway, back to the media. You can see the "win by any means neccessary" mentality everyday. Take Pallywood for instance. Link to Pallywood video News outlets rush to get ANYTHING out before their competition, they never really stop to think if they should release what they have or if what they have is a true account of what's happening. It creates the sensationlism they're looking for, leads to the ratings they live for...and ultimately brings them money, they're real goal. They don't give a shit about the people in need or those suffering. You can also see that when you have a news anchor be like "And we truly...truly feel sorry for the families in Lebanon *insert fake care and concern face here*...in other news Britney Spears is pregnant!! ZOMG!!!11!! :love: "

 

[SupraMario]

Oh my god. I had so much good stuff written and fucking firefox screws me again!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I'm not going to retype everything so I'll just hit some key points.

Didn't read the last 6 pages, posts were too long, but I'm gonna talk about from Vietnam to now.

Vietnam, we were actually winning this war until politicans used it as a political platform to win seats in our government. It was really the first war that the media could show unfolding in real time, and people couldn't stomach what they saw. Politicians used this new sensationlism caused by the media as a leg for their political stance and in turn, screwed us royally.

The chain of command for our military changed as a result of the politicans and it's pretty much still this way. Instead of our commanders on the ground choosing targets, making war plans and executing them...politicians now picked the targets, told the president, the president then okay'ed them, and then the commanders were told, then the commanders made the plans, and tried to execute them.

Only problem with that...when a target was finally chosen, the target was no longer there. Sensationalism and micromanagement lost us Vietnam and for the most part has made us lose every war since.

The result of this practice since Vietnam, half assed battles, half resolved conflicts...resentment against the US...and long drawn out wars. In today's age any military of a modern society should really be able to win a war in months, due to more devastating weapons and higher accuracy and precision. But thanks to politicians having to have their greedy hands in the pot...we end up with problems...problems...problems.

The media doesn't help either. Two things run our country now...ratings and money. We have practically ZERO leaders left here with any kind of morals or integrity. From a young age we're taught that winning is success and to kind of win by any means neccessary. Unfortunately, this translates into everything EXCEPT for war for whatever reason. We go in with no goals and no intention to win...without the intent of victory, defeat is only a matter of time.

But anyway, back to the media. You can see the "win by any means neccessary" mentality everyday. Take Pallywood for instance. Link to Pallywood video News outlets rush to get ANYTHING out before their competition, they never really stop to think if they should release what they have or if what they have is a true account of what's happening. It creates the sensationlism they're looking for, leads to the ratings they live for...and ultimately brings them money, they're real goal. They don't give a shit about the people in need or those suffering. You can also see that when you have a news anchor be like "And we truly...truly feel sorry for the families in Lebanon *insert fake care and concern face here*...in other news Britney Spears is pregnant!! ZOMG!!!11!! :love: "

Took the words right out of my mouth.

I love the ones who Proclaim He's a Liar. I love to ask them to their faces if they have ever met the man, do they actually know anyone that has met the man. 100% of the time the answer is NO, so if they have never met the man or anyone that has, how is it they proclaim he's a liar? I'll tell you exactly how, it's like a bad joke, and by the time it gets to the 10th person it in no way resembles the original joke. So here we have people who call themselves Americans Proclaiming GWB is a liar CAUSE, someone's brother's neighbor's daughter's aunt saw a TV show that claimed on Joe blows internet site that his cousins uncle heard him say a lie. Are you freaking kidding me didn't any of you naysayer's learn anything in 13 years of free school? Everything you know is acquired since not one of you can produce a film file showing GWB in a lie. If there were a file that existed it would be played Every night day in day out but the Communist Left Wing Media. So I challenge every one of you wizards who Proclaim GWB is a liar to produce the evidence OR admit you are programmed and you have learned from this experience.

theres a difference when I hear something from someone else, AKA Word of mouth.
But this as in him lieing to us, was from his mouth. he said in and on national TV, and a adress to the state, that "he had been misinformed" "communication between the CIA and FBI where not there" ect.

To me, that is saying "heheheh, yea we knew about it", so heres some halfassed excuses to get us off the fish hook. Plain and simple, just cause he didnt say "I lied" doesnt mean, he wasnt pointing in that direction.

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

That video was cool.

 

[Joel W.]

Derk: Things that make ya go hmmm..

 

[SupraDerk]

Yeah, I like that video, hah...but I'm not taking that to be truth either...but it does present two very different arguments over the same images...so obviously one side is lying to us and that pisses me off. Why do we never see anything like that in our news? We live in such a fucked up world, haha.

If you want to see the guys who made that video, or see the second half of it check this place out The Second Draft

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

Well they did say they weren't absolutely positive, but that's what appeared to be happening.

 

[SupraDerk]

Yeah. But I know in a debate, someone would use the argument "well they could've edited the video in the same way that it appeared to be edited on the news."

So if you use it to show that you have two perspectives of the same event on complete opposite sides of the spectrum. You have a great argument.

 

[ChadMKIII]

Yeah, Derk, Firefox has screwed me about 3 or 4 times in this thread, look thru my posts, every other one is 'Well, I had a long post and then my browser crashed'. What about Firefox supposedly being this miracle browser?!

But anyway, DeadCell, about GW being a liar, what you said was just that you thought he was a liar because he said they made a mistake. Just because he's the Prez doesn't mean he (and others like CIA, FBI, other countries' intelligence agencies who confirmed WMD's) don't make mistakes. Its highly possible that he really was told that there were WMD's, and and that the people that told him really did think that there were WMD's. They were all convinced that he had WMD's. And just because he says he doesn't think there are any WMD's any more, they could be sitting out there in the desert, buried under the ground in some special underground storage Saddam made. Or they could've been shipped off and hid/sold to Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, whatever. Anyway, Cliffs, him admitting a mistake doesn't make him a liar, you can only speculate that.

Plus, we just found some a month ago!

Derk, exactly. Military power has moved from where it should be. It needs to just be that the generals ont he front lines make the decisions, and its assumed those are the best ones, since the moron politicians couldn't win a war if the other side surrendered!

 

[SupraMario]

Yeah, Derk, Firefox has screwed me about 3 or 4 times in this thread, look thru my posts, every other one is 'Well, I had a long post and then my browser crashed'. What about Firefox supposedly being this miracle browser?!

But anyway, DeadCell, about GW being a liar, what you said was just that you thought he was a liar because he said they made a mistake. Just because he's the Prez doesn't mean he (and others like CIA, FBI, other countries' intelligence agencies who confirmed WMD's) don't make mistakes. Its highly possible that he really was told that there were WMD's, and and that the people that told him really did think that there were WMD's. They were all convinced that he had WMD's. And just because he says he doesn't think there are any WMD's any more, they could be sitting out there in the desert, buried under the ground in some special underground storage Saddam made. Or they could've been shipped off and hid/sold to Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, whatever. Anyway, Cliffs, him admitting a mistake doesn't make him a liar, you can only speculate that.

Plus, we just found some a month ago!

lol
News flash GW doesnt run the USA, hes a puppet. but when I say he knew, its cause he did, the people who wanted into iraq, Knew they didnt have WMDs. they can say what they want to and as much as possible try and cusion the blow, but its still a lie. no 2 ways about it.

Derk, exactly. Military power has moved from where it should be. It needs to just be that the generals ont he front lines make the decisions, and its assumed those are the best ones, since the moron politicians couldn't win a war if the other side surrendered!

wait a second, all your other post have been defending the fat politicians, now your against them?
his whole statement was exactly what I've been saying, its a political war, and you were disagreeing with me, now he post up and you agree with him.
You confusing me, pick a side.

 

[ChadMKIII]

I never said that politicians should be in control of targets, etc. Read my posts. I only defended a few specific incidents.
I said it was right for the war to have taken place, but I never said that the politicians should be in charge of what is attacked, etc. And I defended them saying that its not their fault that the kid you originally posted about was so screwed up. Just because I defend them in some situations doesn't put me behind them all the time. And I sure as heck wasn't defending the fat politicians who lobby for more welfare, govt subsidized assistance, handouts, etc. Besides, that was mostly referring to Vietnam. I'm really not sure the level of political control in Iraq at the moment, things are a lot easier to see in hindsight.

I think you only take certain portions of my posts and create assumptions and build my position off of them lol

This I enjoyed:

lol
News flash GW doesnt run the USA, hes a puppet. but when I say he knew, its cause he did, the people who wanted into iraq, Knew they didnt have WMDs. they can say what they want to and as much as possible try and cusion the blow, but its still a lie. no 2 ways about it.

I thought we'd been over this. THERE IS NO WAY OF PROVING IF THEY LIED OR MADE AN HONEST MISTAKE. Period. Can we agree that I can't prove for a fact they made an honest mistake, and that you can't prove for a fact they lied? This isn't a mantra, if you say they lied enough times it won't make it true.

Besides, lets not forget they are finding quite a bit of weapons, and the chemical/bio WMDs they just found are quite telling. There could easliy be more. We just don't know yet. Just because GW goes and says the intel could've been wrong and there may not be WMDs doesn't magically mean there aren't.

I'm beginning to think this thread is getting reduced to arguing hypotheticals now. If we can't prove something, lets just move on and quit acting like we can.

And no one person runs the USA, he couldn't have gone to war unless the evidence for WMD's was very much there. He had to get Congressional approval, and most of the Libs, like Kerry et al voted to go into Iraq. Tony Blair & Parliament must've also agreed the evidence was pretty convincing to dedicate some of their boys, as must have the other many nations who joined the Coalition Troops.

Just keep in mind its not a one-man war, there are many other parties involved, Bush cannot drag the rest of the world into a war on a whim.

 

[SupraMario]

I think you only take certain portions of my posts and create assumptions and build my position off of them lol

same here,
So agree to disagree?
cause this is going around in circles.

 

[ChadMKIII]

I was noticing lol.

Alright, works for me. Anyways, it was fun while it lasted and made sense. We may be closer on these issues than I originally thought, your first few pages of posts were very different sounding than these lol. See ya!

/thread

 

[SupraMario]

I was noticing lol.

Alright, works for me. Anyways, it was fun while it lasted and made sense. We may be closer on these issues than I originally thought, your first few pages of posts were very different sounding than these lol. See ya!

/thread

LOL, I'm for all out, no pussy footing around war, If your going to take a country and change it, do it the right way and fuck the country up, take out all the enemies, then rebuild it.
None of this O shit we kill a civilian, O god everyone stop shooting shit.
We need to take some pointers from Isriel.
They go the whole kick ass and take names thing down.
We are the most powerful country in the world, lets not talk big then dance around as the bullets come at us.

 

[jetjock]

THERE IS NO WAY OF PROVING IF THEY LIED OR MADE AN HONEST MISTAKE. Period.

Wow. You really need to do some research. A good place to start would be with the Downing Street Memo. Follow up with Paul Wolfowitz's and other's history advising W *before* he was Prez...

 

[Joel W.]

Whoo whooo...< runs away and hides >

 

[ChadMKIII]

LOL, I'm for all out, no pussy footing around war, If your going to take a country and change it, do it the right way and fuck the country up, take out all the enemies, then rebuild it.
None of this O shit we kill a civilian, O god everyone stop shooting shit.
We need to take some pointers from Isriel.
They go the whole kick ass and take names thing down.
We are the most powerful country in the world, lets not talk big then dance around as the bullets come at us.

Hey, now thats what I'm talking about. If you had said that in your first post I would've agreed. I had no idea thats what you were saying. Kool.

Wow. You really need to do some research. A good place to start would be with the Downing Street Memo. Follow up with Paul Wolfowitz's and other's history advising W *before* he was Prez...

None of those can be fully substantiated, or lend much proof to anything. I've looked at them, they don't prove what you're trying to say. This was an internal British memo, they don't know everything about the US policy before the war, they only knew some hearsay from the US dept's they talked to. Not to mention that the legitamacy has been questioned, anyway.

 

[Joel W.]

THERE IS NO WAY OF PROVING IF THEY LIED OR MADE AN HONEST MISTAKE

:nono:
Keep looking!!!