Veitnam Part 2?

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SupraMario

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/28/AR2006072801492.html

Why do I see these fucked up stories show up more and more. How can politicians push for shit like this, It sickens me to no end, I dont hate this soldier for what he did or how he talks. I dont condone his actions, I cant say what I would do in a situation like his. I blame only the fat bastards who started all this shit, those are the real criminals not our guys in the military. For all the guys out there in uniform, I'm not against you, I'm against what they are making you do.

This is so you dont have to click the link, it may ask you to sing in. so i just will post the story here.

Washington Post said:
"I came over here because I wanted to kill people."

By Andrew Tilghman
Sunday, July 30, 2006; Page B01

" I came over here

because I wanted to kill people."
Over a mess-tent dinner of turkey cutlets, the bony-faced 21-year-old private from West Texas looked right at me as he talked about killing Iraqis with casual indifference. It was February, and we were at his small patrol base about 20 miles south of Baghdad. "The truth is, it wasn't all I thought it was cracked up to be. I mean, I thought killing somebody would be this life-changing experience. And then I did it, and I was like, 'All right, whatever.' "

He shrugged.

"I shot a guy who wouldn't stop when we were out at a traffic checkpoint and it was like nothing," he went on. "Over here, killing people is like squashing an ant. I mean, you kill somebody and it's like 'All right, let's go get some pizza.' "

At the time, the soldier's matter-of-fact manner struck me chiefly as a rare example of honesty. I was on a nine-month assignment as an embedded reporter in Iraq, spending much of my time with grunts like him -- mostly young (and immature) small-town kids who sign up for a job as killers, lured by some gut-level desire for excitement and adventure. This was not the first group I had run into that was full of young men who shared a dark sense of humor and were clearly desensitized to death. I thought this soldier was just one of the exceptions who wasn't afraid to say what he really thought, a frank and reflective kid, a sort of Holden Caulfield in a war zone.

But the private was Steven D. Green.

The next time I saw him, in a front-page newspaper photograph five months later, he was standing outside a federal courthouse in North Carolina, where he had pled not guilty to charges of premeditated rape and murder. The brutal killing of a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and her family in Mahmudiyah that he was accused of had taken place just three weeks after we talked.

When I met Green, I knew nothing about his background -- his troubled youth and family life, his apparent problems with drugs and alcohol, his petty criminal record. I just saw and heard a blunt-talking kid. Now that I know the charges against Green, his words take on an utterly different context for me. But when I met him then, his comments didn't seem nearly as chilling as they do now.

Maybe, in part, that's because we were talking in Mahmudiyah. If there's one place where a soldier might succumb to what the military calls "combat stress," it's this town where Green's unit was posted on the edge of the so-called Triangle of Death, for the last three years a bloody center of the Sunni-led insurgency. Mahmudiyah is a deadly patch of earth that inspires such fear, foreboding and uneasiness that my most prominent memory of the three weeks I spent there was the unrelenting knot it caused in my stomach.

I was nervous even before I arrived. Although Mahmudiyah is only a 15-minute drive from the heavily fortified Green Zone in Baghdad, I was taken there by helicopter. Military officials didn't want to risk my riding in a truck that might be hit by a roadside bomb. I'd chosen to go to Mahmudiyah because I wanted to be on the front lines of the war and among the troops fighting it.

"I came over here because I wanted to kill people."

When I arrived in February, Green's battalion -- the 101st Airborne Division's 502nd Infantry Regiment -- was losing an average of about one soldier per week. Whenever I asked how many of the nearly 1,000 troops posted there had been killed so far, most soldiers would just frown and say they'd lost count.

Danger was everywhere. Inside the American base camps, mortar shells fell almost daily. In the towns where U.S. forces patrolled, car bombs were a constant threat. On the rural roads, the troops kept watch for massive artillery rounds hidden under piles of trash that could shred the engine block of an armored Humvee and separate a driver's limbs from his torso.
About a month before I arrived at Green's base -- an abandoned potato-packing plant lined with 20-foot concrete walls -- the soldiers there fought off a full-blown assault that rallied dozens of insurgents in a show of force almost unheard of for a shadowy enemy that typically avoids face-to-face combat. It took more than an hour to quell the attack of gunfire and rocket-propelled grenades coming from all sides of the camp.

Morale took another nosedive soon after, when the hastily rigged electrical wiring system caught fire and burned down the Americans' living quarters. The soldiers watched as the early-morning blaze destroyed all reminders of home: the family photographs, the iPods and the video games that provide brief escapes from combat. When I got there a week later, a chow-hall storage room, packed with radios and satellite maps, was serving as the base command center. The sergeants were still passing out toothbrushes and clean socks to the young troops who had lost everything.

The company commander in charge of Green's unit told me that the situation was so stressful that he himself had "almost had a nervous breakdown" and had been sent to a hotel-style compound in Baghdad for three days of "freedom rest" before resuming his command.

And yet despite the horrific conditions in which they were daily being tested, I found extraordinary camaraderie among the soldiers in Mahmudiyah. They were among the friendliest troops I met in Iraq.

Green was one of several soldiers I sat down with in the chow hall one night not long after my arrival. We talked over dinner served on cardboard trays. I asked them how it was going out there, and to tell me about some of their most harrowing moments. When they began talking about the December death of Sgt. Kenith Casica, my interview zeroed in on Green.

He described how after an attack on their traffic checkpoint, he and several others pushed one wounded man into the back seat of a Humvee and put Casica, who had a bullet wound in his throat, on the truck's hood. Green flung himself across Casica to keep the dying soldier from falling off as they sped back to the base.

"We were going, like, 55 miles an hour and I was hanging on to him. I was like, 'Sgt. Casica, Sgt. Casica.' He just moved his eyes a little bit," Green related with a breezy candor. "I was just laying on top of him, listening to him breathing, telling him he's okay. I was rubbing his chest. I was looking at the tattoo on his arm. He had his little girl's name tattooed on his arm.

"I was just talking to him. Listening to his heartbeat. It was weird -- I drooled on him a little bit and I was, like, wiping it off. It's weird that I was worried about stupid [expletive] like that.

"Then I heard him stop breathing," Green said. "We got back and everyone was like, 'Oh [expletive], get him off the truck.' But I knew he was dead. You could look in his eyes and there wasn't nothing in his eyes. I knew what was going on there."

He paused and looked away. "He was the nicest man I ever met," he said. "I never saw him yell at anybody. That was the worst time, that was my worst time since I've been in Iraq."

Green had been in country only four months at that point, a volunteer in a war he now saw as pointless.

"I gotta be here for a year and there ain't [expletive] I can do about it," he said. "I just want to go home alive. I don't give a [expletive] about the whole Iraq thing. I don't care.

"See, this war is different from all the ones that our fathers and grandfathers fought. Those wars were for something. This war is for nothing."

A couple of days later, I ran into Green again, and he invited me to join him and another soldier in a visit to the makeshift tearoom run by the Iraqi soldiers who share the base with the American troops. It was after dusk, and the three of us walked across a pitch-black landing zone and into a small plywood-lined room where a couple of dozen barefoot Iraqi soldiers were sitting around watching a local news channel.

"Hey, shlonek ," Green said, offering a casual Arabic greeting with a smile and a sweeping wave as he stepped up to the bar. He handed over a U.S. dollar in exchange for three Styrofoam cups of syrupy brown tea.

Green knew a few words of Arabic, and along with bits of broken English, some hand gestures and smiles, he joked around with the Iraqis as he sipped their tea. Most U.S. soldiers didn't hang out on this side of the base with the Iraqis.

I asked Green whether he went there a lot. He did, he said, because he liked to get away from the Americans "who are always telling me what to do."

"These guys are cool," he said, referring to the Iraqis.

"But," he added with a shrug, "I wouldn't really care if all these guys got waxed."

As we talked, Green complained about his frustration with the Army brass that urged young soldiers to exercise caution even in the most terrifying and life-threatening circumstances.

"We're out here getting attacked all the time and we're in trouble when somebody accidentally gets shot?" he said, referring to infantrymen like himself throughout Iraq. "We're pawns for the [expletive] politicians, for people that don't give a [expletive] about us and don't know anything about what it's like to be out here on the line."

The soldiers who fought alongside Green lived in conditions of near-constant violence -- violence committed by them, and against them.

Even in my brief stay there, I repeatedly encountered terrifying attacks. One night, about a mile from Green's base, a roadside bomb exploded alongside the vehicle I was riding in, unleashing a deafening crack and a ball of fire. In most places in Iraq, soldiers would have stopped to investigate. In the Triangle of Death, however, we just plowed on through the cloud of smoke and shower of sparks, fearing an ambush if we stopped. Fortunately, the bomb was relatively small, its detonation poorly timed, and the soldiers all laughed about it moments later. "Dude, that was [expletive] awesome," the driver said after making sure no one was hurt.

A few days later, I was standing outside chatting with an officer about the long-term legacy of the Vietnam War when a rocket came whistling down and struck the base's south wall. A couple of days after that, a mortar round blew up a tent about 20 feet from the visitors' tent that I called home.

My experience, however, was nothing compared with that of Green and the other young men of his Bravo company who spent months in the Triangle of Death.

In the end, I never included Green's comments in any of the handful of stories I wrote from Mahmudiyah for Stars and Stripes. When he said he was inured to death and killing, it seemed to me -- in that place and at that time -- a reasonable thing to say. While in Iraq, I also saw people bleed and die. And there was something unspeakably underwhelming about it. It's not a Hollywood action movie -- there are no rapid edits, no adrenaline-pumping soundtracks, no logical narratives that help make sense of it. Bits of lead fly through the air, put holes in people and their bodily fluids leak out and they die. Those who knew them mourn and move on.

But no level of combat stress is an excuse for the kind of brutal acts Green allegedly committed. I suppose I will always look back on our conversations in Mahmudiyah and wonder: Just what did he mean?

andrewtilghman1@yahoo.com

Andrew Tilghman was a correspondent in Iraq for the military newspaper Stars and Stripes. He lives in Houston.
 

SupraMario

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JustAnotherVictim said:
I thought that's why a lot of people signed up to fight. The "excitement"and being allowed to kill, how is this a big revelation?
Its not that it is a big revelation, this soldier is now being charged with a bunch of stuff, not that what he did was wrong, but alot of soldiers are being trialed for stupid shit. In times of war, the fat fuks in politics are telling the guys they sent over there how to act. Its not a war, its suicide, and a half assed peace mission.
 

SupraMario

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JustAnotherVictim said:
Is this the guy who killed that family?

Yep.
I'm sure the stories of the soldiers who killed all those people in that village are the same. instead of getting this guy off the feild and into a mental hospital, and getting him some help. they just use them to the point were the human mind loses all care for anything, you become an animal again.

My uncle was in veitnam for 2 tours. He was put on the MIA list 7 times, and on the KIA list 2 times. He is an alchoholic, he signed back up to keep 2 of his bothers out of the war, he drinks no stop and the things he said he did over there were so barbaric, that he wished he would have been killed in the war.

I fear the same things will happen to our guys, over there when they come home.
 

JustAnotherVictim

Supramania Contributor
It seems to me the more pointless wars have worse effects on people than somethign like WW1 and 2. I'm not saying that terrible things didn't happen but they saw more of a direct result of their sacrifices instead of what's happening today where I don't think the soldiers get that same effect.
 

SupraMario

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JustAnotherVictim said:
It seems to me the more pointless wars have worse effects on people than somethign like WW1 and 2. I'm not saying that terrible things didn't happen but they saw more of a direct result of their sacrifices instead of what's happening today where I don't think the soldiers get that same effect.

Exactly, the soldiers who came home from WWI and WWII, were hailed and celebrated.
The guys who came home from Veitnam were spit on and called child killers.

and those who are coming home and who are over in Iraq are war criminals, and get accused of fighting for the wrong cause? There is no logic in this war anymore, and the soldiers are suffering because of it.
 

ChadMKIII

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Jul 14, 2006
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This thread is ridiculous.
Really, it is.

I had a long reply, but my browser just crashed, so I'll probably shorten it a bit since I don't feel like typing it all over again.

Anyway, I laughed when I read this:
D34DC311 said:
I blame only the fat bastards who started all this shit, those are the real criminals not our guys in the military.

Did you read the article? No, really? Politicians had nothing to do with this nutcase of a kid. He JOINED JUST SO HE COULD KILL.
Washington Post said:
"I came over here because I wanted to kill people."

Red flag right there. The army didn't do this to him, nor did the fat politicians. He was already like this. Did you also skip the part about his background?
Washington Post said:
When I met Green, I knew nothing about his background -- his troubled youth and family life, his apparent problems with drugs and alcohol, his petty criminal record.
This kid is 21 and already has a history of drugs, alchohol, and a criminal record.

D34DC311 said:
For all the guys out there in uniform, I'm not against you, I'm against what they are making you do.

What they're doing is protecting you so can sit around and complain and whine. Without the military, you wouldn't be able to sit there in a nice comfortable home with a Supra and presumably other cars and complain about the fat politicians who you don't like. They didn't make this guy like that, he already was. Reat the article before you make baseless, unrelated comments, please.

BTW, sorry if I came off a little pointed, I just realized it all sounds a little rude. But it just bugged me. Reread that article, though.
 

JustAnotherVictim

Supramania Contributor
Problem with your arguement is you're only using this one kid as an example, I don't believe every one of the other guys being prsecuted and indicted have the same type of history as this kid. Simply because the kid has a record doesn't make him instantly bad, there have been plenty of guys who have records then join the military and turn around. His situation can only apply to him, because it's almost impossible to pinpoint exactly what set him off. From what I read it didn't sound like he had any trouble with working in the military unless I misread the article. I'm not condoning his actions or saying politicians are not to blame for things like this It's a mixture of both, there is no black & white.
 

ChadMKIII

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JustAnotherVictim said:
Problem with your arguement is you're only using this one kid as an example

I know.
That's all DeadCell was doing, so I was constraining it to just talk about this one kid.

JustAnotherVictim said:
His situation can only apply to him, because it's almost impossible to pinpoint exactly what set him off.

His troubled childhood, poor family relations, drugs and alchohol, etc all caused a downward spiral in this kids life, IMHO. He already wanted to kill before he got to the military, they didn't do this to him.

JustAnotherVictim said:
From what I read it didn't sound like he had any trouble with working in the military unless I misread the article.

No, doesn't sound like he did. Actually, the only complaint I noticed was that the brass wouldn't let him kill enough.
Washington Post said:
As we talked, Green complained about his frustration with the Army brass that urged young soldiers to exercise caution even in the most terrifying and life-threatening circumstances.

"We're out here getting attacked all the time and we're in trouble when somebody accidentally gets shot?"

JustAnotherVictim said:
Simply because the kid has a record doesn't make him instantly bad, there have been plenty of guys who have records then join the military and turn around.
True and true: Never said it was his record that made him bad, its the fact he enjoyed/didn't mind killing people. And there are plenty of druggies/criminals, whatever that do get cleaned up and become great people cuz of the military.

My point was just that you can't blame this kid's condition on Capitol Hill, thats all.
 

SupraMario

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ChadMKIII said:
Anyway, I laughed when I read this:

Did you read the article? No, really? Politicians had nothing to do with this nutcase of a kid. He JOINED JUST SO HE COULD KILL.
Red flag right there. The army didn't do this to him, nor did the fat politicians. He was already like this. Did you also skip the part about his background?

This kid is 21 and already has a history of drugs, alchohol, and a criminal record.

Yes I read the article, This is just one of the one I read, and I happen to be reading it last and just posted it up. Yes the kid was a nut job, but who let him into the military in the first place if he was unstable to begin with?
Politicans, why? because he can kill, and do just as good as the next sack of meat they put a gun in the hands of.




ChadMKIII said:
What they're doing is protecting you so can sit around and complain and whine. Without the military, you wouldn't be able to sit there in a nice comfortable home with a Supra and presumably other cars and complain about the fat politicians who you don't like. They didn't make this guy like that, he already was. Reat the article before you make baseless, unrelated comments, please.

BTW, sorry if I came off a little pointed, I just realized it all sounds a little rude. But it just bugged me. Reread that article, though.

How is this kid protecting my rights and freedoms as an american?
You know who put sadam into power?
Do you know who gave him weapons?
Do you know who is fixxing up the next government for Iraq?

Yea, those fat politicians.

But this wasnt about them, this was about how our soldiers are being blamed for their mental problems that they lash out on, these young kids are living in hell. Now their time to go home, is being extended.


ChadMKIII said:
I know.
That's all DeadCell was doing, so I was constraining it to just talk about this one kid.

I should have posted the other stuff, on the other simmilar problems that are occuring over there. War makes the most civilized, open minded, calm person, and turns them into a barbaric killing machine.

If this kid already had such a bad record, why put him on the front lines?

ChadMKIII said:
His troubled childhood, poor family relations, drugs and alchohol, etc all caused a downward spiral in this kids life, IMHO. He already wanted to kill before he got to the military, they didn't do this to him.

Education is key, family is key.
poverty and ignorance are the real weapons of mass destruction.
How come we dont focus on schools and the education of the poor, here in america? instead of spending more on our roads than we do our youth?
why not schools instead of a losing war?

ChadMKIII said:
No, doesn't sound like he did. Actually, the only complaint I noticed was that the brass wouldn't let him kill enough.

reread this again:
[B said:
Washington Post[/B]] As we talked, Green complained about his frustration with the Army brass that urged young soldiers to exercise caution even in the most terrifying and life-threatening circumstances.

"We're out here getting attacked all the time and we're in trouble when somebody accidentally gets shot?"

He is saying that as we are getting shot at and killed, they want us to be more aware of the people shooting them. basicly be a police officer.

ChadMKIII said:
My point was just that you can't blame this kid's condition on Capitol Hill, thats all.

Would you want people with a criminal record like his, being an employee of your business, and handling customers?
Didnt think so. Then why put him into the military knowing his record?
 

ChadMKIII

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How is this kid protecting my rights and freedoms as an american? He's not doing a great job of representing it, but by fighting against guerillas that would love to destroy America
You know who put sadam into power? Not off the top of my head, but it wasn't Capitol Hill...
Do you know who gave him weapons? Russia, Iran, et al, plue he made a lot of them himself
Do you know who is fixxing up the next government for Iraq? Well, we're trying to...

I will give you this, you bring up a lot of good points I thought of also, namely why they let a nutcase like him into the army. But the answer is actually pretty simple-My guess is he didn't tell them he was signing up specifically so he could kill people. Would you? They prolly just figured, so the kid has had a bit of trouble with drugs, and he stole a candy bar. He can be cleaned up. I doubt anyone told them he was a nutcase.

D34DC311 said:
He is saying that as we are getting shot at and killed, they want us to be more aware of the people shooting them. basicly be a police officer.
Read it in context. His only point is that he doesn't like that he can't kill more people, while the brass wants to only kill when necessary. What I said the first time was correct.

D34DC311 said:
But this wasnt about them, this was about how our soldiers are being blamed for their mental problems that they lash out on, these young kids are living in hell. Now their time to go home, is being extended.

No one likes war. Obviously its no cake walk out there. But I know plenty of people that have served over there, and for every nutcase, there are 100's of great guys who this doesn't effect like that at all. It depends on if you let it effect you or not. This kid didn't have that far to go before he was a mental case, anyway...

This is a war, if we pull out early, the few thousands of soldiers who were lost will have died for naught. We need to finish our job there and neutralize the terrorist guerillas.

D34DC311 said:
War makes the most civilized, open minded, calm person, and turns them into a barbaric killing machine.
See above, but thats a rough generalization. Obviously it effects some, but not all. Look at the heroes who served in WW2, they went through just as greusome of a time, yet very few are mentally unstable. You only hear about 10-20 people who go crazy, and suddenly all the thousands of people who have served over there are being turned into barbaric killing machines. Sorry, but it doesn't hold water.

D34DC311 said:
Education is key, family is key.
poverty and ignorance are the real weapons of mass destruction.
How come we dont focus on schools and the education of the poor, here in america? instead of spending more on our roads than we do our youth?
why not schools instead of a losing war?
No, ignorance and lack of morals are the urban WMD. Being poor doesn't create an excuse for being scum. If you're poor, do something about it besides stealing. Its not their only option. They can go, gasp, get a job, and buy things for themselves.

I would be very interested where you got the amounts that show we spend more on rads than schools, because here in CA, we spend more than many places on kids, yet we rank among the worst in the nations.

It has NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING to do with money. It has to do with good teachers. They need to stimulate the kids to learn, not coddle them in pluch environments and teach them crap.

This is not a losing war at the moment. War is hard. I'm refraining from saying Duh.
Its only losing if you give up on it, which as an American citizen, it would be a real shame if you did.
 

JustAnotherVictim

Supramania Contributor
Actually I believe the government did originally put Saddam into power. Just like they trained Osama Bin Laden to fight.

ChadMkIII said:
I would be very interested where you got the amounts that show we spend more on rads than schools, because here in CA, we spend more than many places on kids, yet we rank among the worst in the nations.

It has NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING to do with money. It has to do with good teachers. They need to stimulate the kids to learn, not coddle them in pluch environments and teach them crap.

This is not a losing war at the moment. War is hard. I'm refraining from saying Duh.
Its only losing if you give up on it, which as an American citizen, it would be a real shame if you did.

I do agree with the school issue, it is terrible out here. The 5th biggest economy in the world and some of the dumbest people. The GED test is so easy I passed it when I was a sophomore in High School.

We definately are not winning the war, I wouldn't quite call it losing either. We are never going to be rid of all the terrorists so I would push that idea out of your head. We can only hope to make it stable long enough for them to take care of themselves and maybe they'll make the best of it and won't waste this oppurtunity.
 

ChadMKIII

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Jul 14, 2006
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I know we'll never be able to completely rid ourselves of terrorists. You can never get rid of flies, either, yet you kill them everytime you see them in your house. Same principle-the less, the better :)
It is a tough war, no questioning that. We're fighting guerillas on their own soil, so they have the upper hand, they can attack and disappear. That doesn't mean we're losing the war though.

JustAnotherVictim said:
The 5th biggest economy in the world and some of the dumbest people.

Igonrant, not dumb. They could be the brightest in the nation, they just have had crappy education. I'm lucky to be attending a private Christian high school, which does infinintly better on standardized tests, etc than the state and nation, and I feel I'm getting a good education. I'm typing this reply at Stanford University at the moment, where I'm attending summer classes. The rest of the kids who are failing the exit exam are no different than me. They just haven't gotten the same quality education. Not because the schools dont have enough money, but because it is sadly misused. Teachers are not good quality, they don't inspire the kids to learn and be curious. If we made better use of the money, we could do better with less money and have brilliant kids.

And the last statement, about hoping the Iraqi's make the best out of the opportunity we give them, that's what we're hoping for. But they won't ever see that chance if we don't stay there until they're prepared. If we leave now, its game over. The Iraqi military isn't ready to fight the guerillas. We would be doing them a huge disservice to leave now.

Nice talking with you :)
 

SupraMario

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ChadMKIII said:
How is this kid protecting my rights and freedoms as an american? He's not doing a great job of representing it, but by fighting against guerillas that would love to destroy America
srry bro, the guerillas that your talkin about, arent the reason we are there. I wont bring oil into this, because we all know Iraq is #2, Oil is #1.
Look at afraghanistan, they have no oil, how quick did it take us to move from there to Iraq?

ChadMKIII said:
You know who put sadam into power? Not off the top of my head, but it wasn't Capitol Hill...
Wrong. We did.

ChadMKIII said:
Do you know who gave him weapons? Russia, Iran, et al, plue he made a lot of them himself
Wrong again. We did.

ChadMKIII said:
Do you know who is fixxing up the next government for Iraq? Well, we're trying to...

I will give you this, you bring up a lot of good points I thought of also, namely why they let a nutcase like him into the army. But the answer is actually pretty simple-My guess is he didn't tell them he was signing up specifically so he could kill people. Would you? They prolly just figured, so the kid has had a bit of trouble with drugs, and he stole a candy bar. He can be cleaned up. I doubt anyone told them he was a nutcase.

Srry, thats not the case, when your fighting a war, and you know its unpopular, you either.
A) Draft people
Or
B) Take anyone you can, that wants to kill.


ChadMKIII said:
Read it in context. His only point is that he doesn't like that he can't kill more people, while the brass wants to only kill when necessary. What I said the first time was correct.

You still dont understand that? Look at it closely, he is saying that with all the attacks going on. The brass is telling them to be more careful, wait untill the car bomb is right next to you. thats what they are saying.



ChadMKIII said:
No one likes war. Obviously its no cake walk out there. But I know plenty of people that have served over there, and for every nutcase, there are 100's of great guys who this doesn't effect like that at all. It depends on if you let it effect you or not. This kid didn't have that far to go before he was a mental case, anyway...

Correction, No one likes an unjustified and unpopular war.
WWII, people wish they wouldnt have to fight it, but they did. Why? because we were endangered, to the point of genocide, if we didnt stop it.

ChadMKIII said:
This is a war, if we pull out early, the few thousands of soldiers who were lost will have died for naught. We need to finish our job there and neutralize the terrorist guerillas.

That will never happen, the only way to truely fix this problem, is to pull out, educate the masses, and let civil war happen. The masses will stand up eventually. they are already doing it Iran.

ChadMKIII said:
See above, but thats a rough generalization. Obviously it effects some, but not all. Look at the heroes who served in WW2, they went through just as greusome of a time, yet very few are mentally unstable. You only hear about 10-20 people who go crazy, and suddenly all the thousands of people who have served over there are being turned into barbaric killing machines. Sorry, but it doesn't hold water.

Those you talk too, and hear from you only here very little, most dont like to talk about it. why? because they did what they had to to survive. Ask any war vet. He will not tell you gruesom details, and if he does he'll prolly break down and cry.
When your life is threatened, you turn back to basic instencts. You do whatever comes to mind to stay alive, and when you dont really know who the enemy is. You shoot anything that looks remotely like it.

ChadMKIII said:
No, ignorance and lack of morals are the urban WMD. Being poor doesn't create an excuse for being scum. If you're poor, do something about it besides stealing. Its not their only option. They can go, gasp, get a job, and buy things for themselves.

You have said you go to a catholic school, you were raised nicely, you have a roof over your head, food in your stumach. Things seem easy when this is how you are raised, but when your parents dont know any better, arent up held to any standards, see that they can live off drug money, and a government check. The your children will think the same.
Beleive me, how do you think those guerillas and terrorist get their troops and cannon fauder? Brainwashing, essencially growing up poor, IS brainwashing your children.
take this into example, a parent uses a credit card and has debt out the ass. The child grows up and watches this. When the child is of age, if he/she is not educated then he/she will think this is how things work.
You take more after your parents than you think you do.

ChadMKIII said:
I would be very interested where you got the amounts that show we spend more on rads than schools, because here in CA, we spend more than many places on kids, yet we rank among the worst in the nations.

Bush put in motion funds for road work across america, for 286.5billion, by 2009.
Schools dont take in half this.
NPR is where i got my info.

ChadMKIII said:
It has NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING to do with money. It has to do with good teachers. They need to stimulate the kids to learn, not coddle them in pluch environments and teach them crap.
LOL, srry bro, it has alot to do with money. alot more than you think. Dont try and blame the teachers. Its quite hard to teach a packed room of kids. whats the average size of your christian school class room? 20? 25max?
I went to a catholic school too. largest class I had threw out my HS years was 27. This was in gym.
Some of my friends, had math classes that hit 50.


ChadMKIII said:
This is not a losing war at the moment. War is hard. I'm refraining from saying Duh.
Its only losing if you give up on it, which as an American citizen, it would be a real shame if you did.

you havent checked the bush administrations ratings lately have you?
This war was a losing war the moment we were hit with those planes.
America is fighting, alot of wars.
The war on drugs.
The war on education.
The war on terrorism.
The war on homeland violence.

I can go on, and thats just here in the USA. I can name about 20+ other war fronts we have men and women stationed across the globe that are war zones.
 

ChadMKIII

Yup, Thats The G/F
Jul 14, 2006
369
0
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34
Bay Area, Ca
D34DC311,
Once again, I had a long response and my browser crashed. Here goes again.

We DID NOT specifically put Saddam into power, nor specifically give Saddam weapons.

We supported a coup by the Ba'athists, of which Saddam just happened to be a young member, like any other member. He eventually got into power after a THIRD coup put a Ba'athist general into power, he came after that general. We did not specifically install Saddam.

Next, we did not specifically give Saddam weapons. We gave some arms to the Ba'athists in the 1960's. While some of these did end up being used against the Kurds, the majority of the major weapons, and the modern weapons, were courtesy of other world powers who are not particularly good friends with the U.S.

D34DC311 said:
Srry, thats not the case, when your fighting a war, and you know its unpopular, you either.
A) Draft people
Or
B) Take anyone you can, that wants to kill.

First, it has nothing to do with popularity. Next, we have no idea what the recruiters knew about this kid. We're both just speculating, so its a moot point.

Moving right along,
D34DC311 said:
Correction, No one likes an unjustified and unpopular war.
WWII, people wish they wouldnt have to fight it, but they did. Why? because we were endangered, to the point of genocide, if we didnt stop it.
Correction, no one likes any war. Period. Justified or not.
Do you LIKE World War 2? No. No one likes millions of people dying and killing each other. That was my point-war is never fun.

[quote-D34DC311]
That will never happen, the only way to truely fix this problem, is to pull out, educate the masses, and let civil war happen. The masses will stand up eventually. they are already doing it Iran.[/quote]
Maybe you don't understand this, but if we pull out now, the terrorists will regain control. The civilians who would like peace can't stand up to the terrorists yet, they aren't prepared. They would simply be oppressed again, and we would have lost a few thousand soldiers and gotten nothing accomplished. We would be stabbing the Iraqi's in the back, and dishonoring those who died.
If we allowed civil war to happen, and supposing that the Iraqi's stood up to the terrorists, it would simply be another bloodbath. Instead of a few thousand, we would now have tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's dead. While I am not for losing more American troops, is one human's life intrensically more valuable than another, simply beacuse he is of the same nationality? Thus, the less life lost, the better.

D34DC311 said:
Those you talk too, and hear from you only here very little, most dont like to talk about it. why? because they did what they had to to survive. Ask any war vet. He will not tell you gruesom details, and if he does he'll prolly break down and cry.
When your life is threatened, you turn back to basic instencts. You do whatever comes to mind to stay alive, and when you dont really know who the enemy is. You shoot anything that looks remotely like it.
True, but it has nothing to do with what I said. They can still function in normal society without raping and killing a 14 year old girl and her family. This guy completely lost it. As the article you presented said:
Washington Post said:
But no level of combat stress is an excuse for the kind of brutal acts Green allegedly committed. I suppose I will always look back on our conversations in Mahmudiyah and wonder: Just what did he mean?
People that saw just as terrible of things in WW2 don't go around raping and killing now. It is very sad what has happened to some of them, but most can still function well in society without killing people. I never said they wouldn't break down if pressed about brutal scenes they might have encountered.
D34DC311 said:
You have said you go to a catholic school, you were raised nicely, you have a roof over your head, food in your stumach. Things seem easy when this is how you are raised, but when your parents dont know any better, arent up held to any standards, see that they can live off drug money, and a government check. The your children will think the same.
Well, not to nitpick, but its not Catholic, just regular old Christian. But once again, you prove my point. As you state 'when your parents don't know any better, arent held to any standars, live off drug money and a gov't check, your children will think the same' (slightly paraphrased). It has NOTHING to do with being poor, it has to dow with being held to high standards REGARDLESS of your situation. If a parent fails to teach his or her child that because they are living off drug money, that person is not doing a good job of parenting. But being poor doesn't mean that you should be held to lower standards. All men are equal. And, as you conveniently ignored, there are also many, many very rich people who steal and cheat in their businesses all the time.

D34DC11 said:
Beleive me, how do you think those guerillas and terrorist get their troops and cannon fauder? Brainwashing, essencially growing up poor, IS brainwashing your children.
The troops they get has nothing to do with the poverty. It has to do with the religion these children grew up with and the way the parents raised them. It is specifically in the Qur'an to kill Infadels. Thus, they believe they are obeying their religion by killing Jews and Christians. Also, Paradise is not guaranteed to Muslims just for being a Muslim, so when a kid is promised to instantly go to Paradise and have 72 virgins awaiting him, and his parents are proud for him to do that, and the general culture supports that, and he is told it is the Will of God, why would he have a problem with it. Yes, many who join do join because they are poor and don't like their earthly life anyway, but thats not the main reason.

D34DC311 said:
you havent checked the bush administrations ratings lately have you?
This war was a losing war the moment we were hit with those planes.
America is fighting, alot of wars.
The war on drugs.
The war on education.
The war on terrorism.
The war on homeland violence.

Hahaha, what do poll numbers show? That 65% of the nation is also as uneducated and incorrect as yourself?
Abraham Lincoln had an approval rating as low as 16% during the Civil War. Do you think it was wrong because 84% of the nation didn't like it? Of course not. Popularity has nothing to do with right or wrong.

And I hope we're not fighting a war on education. Perhaps one for education. :)

D34DC311 said:
LOL, srry bro, it has alot to do with money. alot more than you think. Dont try and blame the teachers. Its quite hard to teach a packed room of kids. whats the average size of your christian school class room? 20? 25max?
I went to a catholic school too. largest class I had threw out my HS years was 27. This was in gym.
Some of my friends, had math classes that hit 50.
A good teacher could get them in line. And this doesn't negate the fact that the funding in badly misused. If it were properly spent, we could do better with much less. Money sent through a beaurocracy is money lost.

Anyway, the original point to this thread was that its not the wars fault that this kid turned out like that. That was all I was trying to say. Have a good day.
 
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