Toyota factory subwoofer?

[born2drv]

hey bigaaron, it's cool man i know you got lots of experience but it's a forum so i'm just giving my 2c based on my personal experience you could get lots of bass out of 6.5" subs for sure......... but it would not be the rumbling thunderous base some rap or hip hop songs call for, or even some jazz or classical.

wedge, cone size does matter for frequency response. SPL can be measured at an frequency. when competing most people will figure out what their optimal frequency is and use a song or frequency tone to maximize their SPL output.

my 4" mid range speakers will produce sound at 50Hz if i push them too... but it will be so negligable that it would not be audible in any real sense.

you could push 1000w rms into a little 6.5" sub in a bandpass enclosure (large size) and MAYBE get some decent response in the 20-60Hz range, but its not gonna set off any car alarms you happen to drive by.... and it would be no comparison to running 100w rms into a 10" sub in a sealed enclosure (smaller box) and getting way more output in the lower range. in fact the 6.5" box in bandpass would probably be the same cubic feet as the 10" box in sealed, only the 10" would be taller due to the larger basket, magnet, etc. That's the only reason to go for smaller speakers, because the mounting depth is shallower and makes for easier installs in tight places. I think a good compromise is running low profile 8's or 10's

Pioneer came up with a new subwoofer, it's 12" and only 4" mounting depth because it has a special inverted magnet.... and it's relatively affordable you can check it out on their website. A few other manufacturer's have similar designs but they're much more expensive and hard to come by from what I've looked into.

 

[bigaaron]

I hear you but what sounds good to you in your Supra does not have to win any competitions. I have a 12" JL sub in my spare tire well, its works great and plays low enough for me. I threw it together in about an hour, it's nothing special. The lid still closes and it takes up no space in the car, but I always have my AAA card handy. I got burned out on car audio from doing it for too long.

 

[OneJoeZee]

hey aaron. what'd it cost for you to do that^ in your car?

 

[WeDgE]

In regards to born2drv's post:

Again, displacement is what matters, not cone size...when looking at potential SPL.

Of course a single 6.5" speaker, with low x-max more than likely, isn't going to equal the output of a single 10" speaker...the 10" has much more displacement capability than the 6.5"...

For example,

Peerless Exclusive 7": Sd-132cm^2 P-P xmax-11mm (1.1cm) Displacement-145.1cm^3 (This driver can displace 0.145L of air at x-max)

Peerless XLS 10": Sd-333cm^2 P-P xmax-25mm (2.5cm) Displacement-832.5cm^3 (This driver can displace 0.8325L of air at x-max)

SPL is all about creating pressure...and how do you create pressure? By moving air, of course.

Now let's say we were able to ramp up the x-max of the 7" driver to say, 77mm (7.7cm). We would then see displacement as: (145.1cm^2)x(7.7cm)=1117.27cm^3

Wow, that's a 34.2% increase in displacement OVER the 10" driver. A 7" driver with that much x-max would definitely be louder than the 10"...probably by a good margin as well.

Now let's say we use 6 of those 7" drivers(original ones): 6(145.1cm^3)=870.6cm^3

Gosh, that's a 4.5% increase in displacement over the 10"! The 7" setup has the potential to move 4.5% more air, thus arriving at a higher SPL measurement. Also, with multiple drivers distortion numbers decrease as does power compression (which we would see in the single 10" being driven with 1000W).


This goes to show you that cone size by itself doesn't tell you much about the SPL potential a driver has. When looking strictly at cone size you're ignoring a dimension of the driver. Basically you're only looking at the static driver(Sd, or cone area) and we all know that a static driver cannot produce sound. Therefore, we must look at it in its dynamic state (displacement).

 

[WeDgE]

I dig your idea Aaron. Did you not want to fiberglass the tirewell? How will you secure the baffle to the car? Any plans for a false floor setup in the hatch?

 

[born2drv]

First of all, I never disputed that 6.5" subs can't high hard. Certainly at 120Hz or 200Hz or whatever, getting enough of them with high power can hit harder then 10" or 12" subs in the same enclosure volume space.

I simply stated that to get sound reproduced properly in the low bass range (like 20-60Hz) no 6.5" sub will cut it. Hell no 8" will cut it.

I can put 300 tweeters in my car and probably get 150 SPL or more and maybe win an SPL competition, but that doesn't mean I will get good sound reproduction in the entire 20Hz to 20,000Hz frequency range.

If you listen to dance, pop or rock and don't need high SPL output at low frequencies, 6.5" subs would work OK. If you listen to rap, hip hop, jazz, classical and want that deep bass, nothing short of 12" will really cut it.

Think about this... What is the resonance frequency of a thin sheet of plastic? Like 100Hz? 200Hz? WHat is the resonance frequency of the frame in your car? It's like 2-10Hz... that's why your car's frame never rattles from any music you will play. But your plastic panels vibrate/rattle because they're smaller and lighter. Same idea with speakers. They're vibratory sources. It's much easier to get something bigger to vibrate at lower frequencies. That's why to get the same SPL at 50Hz, you'd need to put the 6.5" in a larger (ported/bandpass) enclosure and run a ton of power through it. It doesn't want to reproduce low bass sounds but you're forcing it too.

That's another thing too, you'll blow a lot more 6.5" subs at 50Hz then you will with 12" subs if you try to get them to both run the same SPL at the same frequency.

 

[WeDgE]

Nevermind...simple physics is out of your league.

Not to mention the nuances of car audio lingo is lost on you as well...ah well... :\

 

[born2drv]

Hmm... I've studied mechanical engineering for four years and taken numerous physics courses. I even took a specific course on accoustics and vibrations as well as fluid dynamics which is also relevent to this discussion.

I would say simple physics is lost on you dude. Show me any 6.5" speaker enclosure that hits 140+SPL @ 50hz with less than 4 speakers.... and I will give you $1000. You can run 5000 watts in each sub for all I care, it will never happen.

I'd be surprised if 4 x 6.5" speakers could even hit 120 SPL @ 50Hz.

 

[bigaaron]

Also, even though the f3 of the enclosure might be 60hz, does not mean it does not have the capability to play lower frequencies, it just takes more power to do it.

BTW, once you have tenitis and your ears ring all the time like mine, you will not be so interested in listening to anything that hits 140db.

 

[bigaaron]

Also, even though the f3 of the enclosure might be 60hz, does not mean it does not have the capability to play lower frequencies, it just takes more power to do it.

BTW, once you have tenitis and your ears ring all the time like mine, you will not be so interested in listening to anything that hits 140db.

You cant hear 20hz in a car, the wavelength is longer then the distance from you to the speaker. You can hear it outside of the car but this is not 1990 and NWA is not at the top of the charts anymore.

The sub in my car now was cheap and easy and sounds good to me.

 

[WeDgE]

Hmm... I've studied mechanical engineering for four years and taken numerous physics courses. I even took a specific course on accoustics and vibrations as well as fluid dynamics which is also relevent to this discussion.

I would say simple physics is lost on you dude. Show me any 6.5" speaker enclosure that hits 140+SPL @ 50hz with less than 4 speakers.... and I will give you $1000. You can run 5000 watts in each sub for all I care, it will never happen.

I'd be surprised if 4 x 6.5" speakers could even hit 120 SPL @ 50Hz.

I'm not saying a 6.5" speaker will hit a certail dB @ specific frequency...oy vey...you're missing the whole point of my argument...which was to discredit the idea: all that matters is cone area...which is absolutely untrue. Do you follow now?

 

[Dirgle]

Ok boys, your points have been made quite clearly, and now your just repeating yourselves. Also this thread has wandered far off topic. Anything else you have to ague can be taken to PM's.

Back on topic gents.

 

[born2drv]

Of course it is, but that's not wht I said.

Anyhow yes SPL is important but you want an even distrubution of SPL at all frequency ranges. So lets drop the argument, I found an old pic of my previous set up......

Those were 2 x 6.5" Kicker "subs" ... made of fiberglass and coverned in matching vinyl (the vinyl started to peel though). They sounded great, but they didn't hit hard lower then 100Hz, and they didn't hit at all barely under 50Hz.

I'm going to do the same thing this time, only I'm putting 2 x 8" subs in there, and instead of covering in vinyl, I'll sand down the fiberglass and get it painted glossy burgundy.

I don't think these two 8's will hit all that low either, but it will sound better then the 6.5's and it may turn out decent, we'll see

 

[born2drv]

Note: There was also about a 1-1.5" clearance for the seats to fold down if I remember correctly... that was very important to me. I'm going to make sure my 8" pods won't stick out too much also so that the seats still fold down.

 

[ngsm13]

Hmm... I've studied mechanical engineering for four years and taken numerous physics courses. I even took a specific course on accoustics and vibrations as well as fluid dynamics which is also relevent to this discussion.

I would say simple physics is lost on you dude. Show me any 6.5" speaker enclosure that hits 140+SPL @ 50hz with less than 4 speakers.... and I will give you $1000. You can run 5000 watts in each sub for all I care, it will never happen.

I'd be surprised if 4 x 6.5" speakers could even hit 120 SPL @ 50Hz.

Ok, I want to know if you have $1000 to give me. Because I'll gladly accomplish this simple task if you do. But I don't want to waste my time on some douche bag...

nG

 

[bigaaron]

Of course it is, but that's not wht I said.

Anyhow yes SPL is important but you want an even distrubution of SPL at all frequency ranges. So lets drop the argument, I found an old pic of my previous set up......

Those were 2 x 6.5" Kicker "subs" ... made of fiberglass and coverned in matching vinyl (the vinyl started to peel though). They sounded great, but they didn't hit hard lower then 100Hz, and they didn't hit at all barely under 50Hz.

I'm going to do the same thing this time, only I'm putting 2 x 8" subs in there, and instead of covering in vinyl, I'll sand down the fiberglass and get it painted glossy burgundy.

I don't think these two 8's will hit all that low either, but it will sound better then the 6.5's and it may turn out decent, we'll see

That's because the box volume was obviously too small, not because the subs don't respond lower then 100hz. Also, that is a terrible place to put a subwoofer. You get way more sound by placing it in the rear corner. You basically had a midbass, not a sub.

 

[WeDgE]

That's because the box volume was obviously too small, not because the subs don't respond lower then 100hz.

Give this man a prize!!

 

[born2drv]

I've tried to put subs everywhere in this car. From my experience that is one of the best spots to put it that give you close proximity to the speaker (higher SPL) and it's in a spot where there are very few loose panels to vibrate. I hate rattles/vibrations in my car. Plus you can keep the targa roof and clips. If you put it in the corners in the back, it's a tight fit just for 6" speakers.

Like I said, those speakers performed very well and they required something like 0.40cu feet enclosure. The 8's I'm putting in their place will only require 0.25cu feet. So I'm hopeful it will sound decent.

And if I'm not satisfied I'll drop one 12" or 15" sub in the spare tire well like your setup.

 

[ngsm13]

Ok, I want to know if you have $1000 to give me. Because I'll gladly accomplish this simple task if you do. But I don't want to waste my time on some douche bag...

nG

Ahem...

nG

 

[born2drv]

These are some other old pics, this was the "in progress" pic......... unfortunately in progress... soemone ripped me off so i enver finished it... But you can see what I was doing....

Now something like that is more ideal of course.... But that turned the whole hatch into one giant enclosure. It also weighed like 250lb too and no targa would fit. It pounded hard tho... 147SPL out of 4 x 12" subs and only about 100watts each. I never had a chance to finish it or add more amps.