Titanium valves for the 7M

[CT26smoker]

S#it, If I could afford Ti valves, I'd jump at the chance.

Fact: Toyota puts Ti valves into their Beems 3SG (Altezza IS200).
Fact: Ti is better at high temp than stainless, that is why it's used so much in aerospace.

Fact: SS sucks as an exhaust valve, my Ferrea 6000 had eroded the seats so bad in 6000 miles, they were starting to leak, and they are out now to be reground.
Yes, Ferrea makes a higher grade, and I haven't tried a set of them yet.
Just pissed me off that what they are selling as a base valve sucks so bad......

WHERE are you getting Ti valves for close to the same price as SS ?
The last time I looked Ferrea wants $75 per valve for Ti :aigo:

By the way, Love the pictures of the shop....
So many pictures of peopl's work area are cluttered with junk, garbage, and dirty cloths....

 

[madsupra88]

Ok let me start off by telling you these valves are made by Delwestusa , These valves are molly coated and almost indestructible. These valves go for $100 EACH , We can do whatever you want with the valve.

Also stock valve seat is .0100 wide, he cuts them at a 45 degree angle and gets the down to .005 wide which will flow tons more. whatever you want done to the valve can be done.

He has had his street low 9 sec van for the past 10 years and it is the fastest in michigan, he has the titanium valve train he makes and drives the van on summers and races it without a single problem.

You can look him up at jarvisperformance.com


He can seperate the sets also, Titanium reatainers and titanium keepers for $260 Thats a steal.

---------- Post added at 03:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:22 PM ----------

BTW, as for the retainers, it would be best to send out one of the springs that you would use so he can machine them specificly to your specs.

 

[Poodles]

S#it, If I could afford Ti valves, I'd jump at the chance.

Fact: Toyota puts Ti valves into their Beems 3SG (Altezza IS200).
Fact: Ti is better at high temp than stainless, that is why it's used so much in aerospace.

Fact: SS sucks as an exhaust valve, my Ferrea 6000 had eroded the seats so bad in 6000 miles, they were starting to leak, and they are out now to be reground.
Yes, Ferrea makes a higher grade, and I haven't tried a set of them yet.
Just pissed me off that what they are selling as a base valve sucks so bad......

WHERE are you getting Ti valves for close to the same price as SS ?
The last time I looked Ferrea wants $75 per valve for Ti :aigo:

By the way, Love the pictures of the shop....
So many pictures of peopl's work area are cluttered with junk, garbage, and dirty cloths....

ONLY the dual VVTi version of the beams motor had titanium valves. It's also a freak and runs 11.5:1 compression and is an interferance motor. Erosion of the seat has nothing to do with the valves either...

 

[CT26smoker]

Erosion of the seat has nothing to do with the valves either...

You misunderstand.
The actual seats are fine, it's the surface on the valve, that sits on the seat, which went south on my Ferrea 6000s.

 

[Flateric]

$100 bucks each, yikers! So like 2400 in valves alone? Whoa!

 

[IJ.]

Narrow seats on a Turbo 7M just don't last, I tried a fancy radius valve job when I built the brand new head on mine and within 5000km's they leaked like a sieve, went back to a 3 angle that I've always used, end of issue, couldn't see a difference HP wise on a chassis dyno so again race V's real world is a different beast and must be taken into account.

 

[jetjock]

Gotta love some of the "facts" in post 21.

OP: Which alloy are we talking about here?

 

[IJ.]

Gotta love some of the "facts" in post 21.

OP: Which alloy are we talking about here?

:opcorn::

 

[madsupra88]

So from your experience, what do you prefer 3 angle or 4 angle . Ive never heard anyone doing a 4 angle on a supra im curious to see the difference!

---------- Post added at 10:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 PM ----------

Gotta love some of the "facts" in post 21.

OP: Which alloy are we talking about here?

Valves:
MIL-Spec Ti-6242 vacuum arc triple melt titanium, with thermally sprayed coating (Molybdenum) which is a sliding/wear coating.

Retainers:
MIL-Spec Billet Titanium

-Saif

 

[jetjock]

So, a max operating temp of appx 950 F (about as good as it gets for Ti alloys) followed by a reduction in fatigue limit due to creep and oxidation even when precipitation hardened. I think I'll pass, at least on the exhaust valves...

 

[bioskyline]

hmmm intertsting. ill have to see where this goes. onlything ive owned with tit parts is a ls7 powered sandrail

 

[madsupra88]

So, a max operating temp of appx 950 F (about as good as it gets for Ti alloys) followed by a reduction in fatigue limit due to creep and oxidation even when precipitation hardened. I think I'll pass, at least on the exhaust valves...

From what I've researched,

Maximum Service Temperature, Air 1000 °F

How hot do our cars run (combustion chamber)? I'm guessing somewhere close to that range if not more depending on the type of fuel used am i correct?

Now a typical heat treatment for this alloy is rough forging which drastically changes its max temp to 1900 °F

Would that be something worth doing, or would it be better off just getting the stems coated with DLC or Chromium nitride.

One thing that's making me stick to these valves is like i said before, he has a full aluminum built small block in his vehicle, using these exact same valves for the past 5+ years, Actually drives it every summer and see's at least 15-20 track days a summer, and has never had an issue with them.
This is him in 07 lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRDO8FQWMuI

 

[rakkasan]

Simple question, what are your goals relating to your motor?

 

[madsupra88]

Simple question, what are your goals relating to your motor?

9 sec E.T ill be happy, Thats not my point though, basically trying to build a very strong motor to handle a good amount of abuse and still hold together for a good amount of time. Now you might say that this is not worth it, but remember when i started this thread, in my head i was thinking that titanium is lighter and stronger than SS. After reading what people say on here, i stand corrected, it is not stronger than SS. But just the amount of weight i could remove from the valve-train just seems like a very good thing to do.

---------- Post added at 10:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 AM ----------

Or how about Ti retainers and keepers all around, and just use Ti valves on the intake and SS on the exhaust? Or would that not be such a good idea. I know the new vettes have Ti intake valves!

 

[rakkasan]

Now you might say that this is not worth it, but remember when i started this thread, in my head i was thinking that titanium is lighter and stronger than SS. After reading what people say on here, i stand corrected, it is not stronger than SS. But just the amount of weight i could remove from the valve-train just seems like a very good thing to do.

Well, I wouldn't say if you were right or wrong, it is your money. The thing that I have witnessed a lot of people doing is getting wrapped up in high dollar parts just because they are high dollar, or looking for the bling effect, instead of setting a target and actually hitting it. I've been guilty of this as well.

My car runs 10x's better now with my new motor because of my relentless research-before-buying approach I took. If you KNOW that the additional cost of Ti valves will make a difference, buy them. If you think that SS, or even stock valves will serve your purpose allowing you to spend the saved monies on other parts, then maybe that should be your plan. Set a target, then figure out how to hit it.

 

[Enraged]

food for thought: set of 12 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAN-11119-12/

 

[madsupra88]

.

---------- Post added at 10:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 AM ----------

Or how about Ti retainers and keepers all around, and just use Ti valves on the intake and SS on the exhaust? Or would that not be such a good idea. I know the new vettes have Ti intake valves!

 

[IJ.]

What would the benefit of that be Saif?

Ti retainers and Keepers are fine just don't see a need for half a set of Valves..

 

[figgie]

I will jump in here as I had a lengthy convo with Delwest USA on this very subject nearly 5 years ago.

madsupra88.

Hate to burst that bubble (actually not really).

One thing Delwest forgot to tell you is as was mentioned before, the OEM valves seats need to be chucked as it is way to hard a material for the Ti alloy based valves to seat against. So that leaves only ONE option for valves seats that won't destroy the Ti alloy valves in short order. Beryllium-Copper seats (which Delwest USA also makes). But now here is the kicker, with the valve seat material change, you are swapping the wear from the valve to the valve seat unlike OEM that sacrifices the valve over the valve seat when it comes to longevity. Also the other portion you forgot to address, since the Ti alloy is infact softer than the SS or OEM counterpart, that means the guides must be swapped to bronze guides to. Ask Delwest how much the Beryllium-Copper seats cost and also the protection that a machine shop must take to protect themselves from that shit (ie unless they are a race shop that has touched Be-Cu seats, most won't touch that shit with a 100ft pole). Oh you thought it was a cut and dry replacement?

Sorry dude, not even close.

In total, without doing ANY port work and just those parts. You are looking at a 10K bill after all the machining is said and done and no one will see benifits unless spinning the motor to 10k+ rpm SUSTAINED.

In short, waste of money and a dream for just about anyone save for a dedicated race shop with sponsorships.

 

[madsupra88]

I will jump in here as I had a lengthy convo with Delwest USA on this very subject nearly 5 years ago.

madsupra88.

Hate to burst that bubble (actually not really).

One thing Delwest forgot to tell you is as was mentioned before, the OEM valves seats need to be chucked as it is way to hard a material for the Ti alloy based valves to seat against. So that leaves only ONE option for valves seats that won't destroy the Ti alloy valves in short order. Beryllium-Copper seats (which Delwest USA also makes). But now here is the kicker, with the valve seat material change, you are swapping the wear from the valve to the valve seat unlike OEM that sacrifices the valve over the valve seat when it comes to longevity. Also the other portion you forgot to address, since the Ti alloy is infact softer than the SS or OEM counterpart, that means the guides must be swapped to bronze guides to. Ask Delwest how much the Beryllium-Copper seats cost and also the protection that a machine shop must take to protect themselves from that shit (ie unless they are a race shop that has touched Be-Cu seats, most won't touch that shit with a 100ft pole). Oh you thought it was a cut and dry replacement?

Sorry dude, not even close.

In total, without doing ANY port work and just those parts. You are looking at a 10K bill after all the machining is said and done and no one will see benifits unless spinning the motor to 10k+ rpm SUSTAINED.

In short, waste of money and a dream for just about anyone save for a dedicated race shop with sponsorships.

Ahh, this is the explanation i was looking for, I was actually going to give them a call and discuss this with them.
so overall conclusion to this is Dump the valves and just stick with Ti retainers and keeprers and go with SS valves am i correct?

And is $260 for a full set of Ti retainers and Ti keepers a good deal?

thanks
-Saif