The (old) Official Gun Thread.

[Poodles]

As much as I'd love to agree that this is media bullshit I can't:-(. Remington 700 series rifles have had unsafe trigger assemblies sense forever! Remington has known about this and chose to ignore it...the designer of the 700 warned Remington not to produce the trigger units but the ignored him. There are thousands of stories of 700's firing on their own just by flipping the safety off:-(

Yes these rifles have a "problem" but this problem is no excuse for this sad story! That lady violated the #1 firearm safety rule (never point the gun at something you don't want to shoot!)....

Infact, the #1 modification done to 700 series rifles is to junk the trigger and install a timely (sp) trigger and mod the bolt so it can cycle while still on "safe"....the rifle itself is an amazing platform but the triggers are hazzardous!

Millions of guns sold and only a handful of injuries/fatalities. Statisticly it's insignificant and any manufacter would want a failure rate that low. NBC has been known to rig their "demonstrations" over the years as well...

 

[Supracentral]

It's still a matter of poor handling. What are you doing pointing an uncleared weapon at someone?

In the cases I've seen, the 700's aren't the problem. It's the Remington-Walker-Haskell Trigger plus poor maintenance, dirt and/or a bad/poorly adjusted trigger job creates the condition.

This is probably the most popular rifle in the United States. I've owned several 700's and I'd probably be shooting one right now if it weren't for my CZ.

 

[gaboonviper85]

Millions of guns sold and only a handful of injuries/fatalities. Statisticly it's insignificant and any manufacter would want a failure rate that low. NBC has been known to rig their "demonstrations" over the years as well...

doesnt matter....remington was warned of the trigger group....

yes the death was the woman's fault but remington knew that the trigger group was flawed in some way! remington has had recalls but they have hid them in such a way the the general public wouldnt know about them unless that actively searched for them! remington has been shady about the whole deal....whats worse is that they are being shady willingly!!!!

the 700 series is an awesome series...hell the military even uses it but remington supplies them with different triggers!

i dont care how you defend remington in this....the bottomline is remington knew! hell, remingtons reply was pretty much an "oh fuck were caught" kind of reply!

again its the womans fault for the death of her son but i personally believe remington should recall every god damn 700....which will bankrupt them!

compare it to the pontiac fiero....they knew it was a fire trap but kept producing the shit box......i have no sympathy! when you are in the market for consumer products and you know what you sell is a hazard then you must make it known as such.....fuck even illegal fireworks have "warnings" written on them....but remington doesnt tell you that "when you drop the safetly gun may fire unintentionally all on its fuckin own"

yall can say "yeah yeah ive owned so many blah blah blah and my uncles cousin" but i personally wouldnt sell a product that was unstable when a .05 cent fix would correct the issue!!!!


im not defending nor condemning remington....but rather pointing out that they knew and the fix was super cheap and they knew of it before they put the 700 on the market and i fear that the government will get involved but i also feel that remiington needs to be taught a lesson about being cheap bastards! they sold an inferior product willingly withought making customers away that the trigger extreamly unstable!

 

[Poodles]

If they were that unstable, they wouldn't have sold millions of them. Also, the triggers are tuned and tested from the factory, if you screw with the setting or don't maintain the weapon, it's NOT a design fault. Same exact protection the automotive industry has, it's called ABUSE.

 

[87mk111]

i went to a gun show up in Cleveland toda and picked up some goodies for my SKS. I got 3 Tapco 20 rnd mags, 10 stripper clips, 100 rds of ammo, and a bandolier for the the stripper clips.

 

[gaboonviper85]

If they were that unstable, they wouldn't have sold millions of them. Also, the triggers are tuned and tested from the factory, if you screw with the setting or don't maintain the weapon, it's NOT a design fault. Same exact protection the automotive industry has, it's called ABUSE.

Lmao....don't be silly! Ofcourse they would have! Lipo batteries are still being sold as well as many consumer products that randomly burst into flames....

Come on poo....you know better than to say that!

 

[Poodles]

I know that consumers aren't stupid, the government just think they are. Like I said, a couple dozen or so confirmed cases out of the MILLIONS of guns sold is a track record any company would be GLAD to have. How about other guns that have major failures? Glocks blowing up, M16 barrel failures...

 

[gaboonviper85]

I know that consumers aren't stupid, the government just think they are. Like I said, a couple dozen or so confirmed cases out of the MILLIONS of guns sold is a track record any company would be GLAD to have. How about other guns that have major failures? Glocks blowing up, M16 barrel failures...

Glock did a MAJOR recall on all .40sw cal guns that had the old style barrels and didn't even remotly try to hide the fact that there was a problem!

Never heard of m16 barrel failure...but I'd imagine at was rather ar15's chambered in 223 and morons tried to shoot 5.56x45 NATO from them which is not mfg problem!

The bottom-line is...the creator of the 700 said there is a flaw in the design and didn't want it produced.

 

[Poodles]

The 700's designer, Mike Walker, who is now 98 years old and lives in North Carolina, said on camera the safety did not retract the firing pin, so it was not actually a safety. In 1948 he proposed a trigger-locking design, but it was rejected due to additional cost: 5.5 cents per gun. "I think it was stupidity," he said. Walker went on to state that the accidents were caused by user mishandling and bad safety practices.

His comments say otherwise...

 

[Cz.]

It looks like both parties are at fault as far as I'm concerned. Remington is at fault for marking something that apparently isn't a safety as a safety and the user is at fault for not properly handling the gun. It might be acceptable for some (arguably) fudd rifle if there's something marked as a "safety" that isn't, but if it were on any sort of serious ccw defensive firearm something like that would be completely unacceptable.

 

[ret]

^ I agree with both parties being at fault. Any gun owner should know and never, EVER ignore that a gun should not be pointed at anything you don't have any intention of shooting. Hell, I won't even let some people hold my gun even after I've cleared it of any cartridges, removed the magazine, and then put on the safety because I know they won't take it seriously. It doesn't get pointed at my friends when I'm joking around, it doesn't get pointed at my dogs when they piss me off, it doesn't even get pointed at my neighbor's cat no matter how much I just want to punt it sometimes.

On the other hand, the designer expressed a safety concern and developed a simple, cheap solution. Remington could have just as easily increased the price of the the gun by a buck and netted a massive profit simultaneously fixing any safety concerns. No one's going to flip out because the cost of a rifle goes up a buck when it's already a few hundred (I don't know any exact quotes), and you still have to consider taxes, background checks in most (if not all) cases, so on and so forth. Point is, if someone wants the rifle, one buck's not going to be a deal breaker, so Remington could have fixed the safety AND made money by doing so.

 

[Supracentral]

Remington could have fixed the safety AND made money by doing so.

Well, not really. Now let me preface this by saying I'm not defending the thought process I'm about to illustrate - Personally I think the sort of thinking I'm about to describe is one of the major problems in modern business and is unethical and immoral. With that said:

There's more to it than the "less than a buck" fix. First, by making an outright admission, they are opening themselves up to liability for any of the guns that are already out there with the bad trigger. This greatly strengthens anyone's lawsuit against them. To mitigate this, they'd have to issue a recall. A recall is a tremendously expensive proposition. Shipping, labor, replacement parts, additional customer support staff, communications, press releases, marketing, supply chain issues, retooling new production... A recall like this can cost many millions. Often times businesses weigh the potential costs of lawsuits against a recall and decide it's cheaper to pay the lawsuit.

There should be a special hell for anyone who makes the sort of "bean counter" decision I've described above if human lives are a factor in the equation.

If they truly believe there is a problem that is potentially life threatening, they have a moral and ethical responsibility to their customers to fix it.

Now with that said, I'm still not entirely convinced that a properly maintained and adjusted trigger really has all that much of an issue. But I don't have the information that Remington has. They should have enough information to be convinced one way or the other.

 

[ret]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I made that statement under the assumption that they applied the fix before they released the rifle. With your post in mind, I really don't know the timeline of the rifle - when it was designed, when it began production, and when the problem solution was presented are all probably much different times than my last post had assumed. I do however, still stand by the rest of my previous post and will go as far as to say that if the designer didn't think the firearm was safe, he shouldn't have handed over the plans without correcting the problem, but that's my personal opinion and I don't expect anyone to agree completely with that.

 

[MDCmotorsports]

What makes it a PITA to clean? I don't have any problem field stripping it, just outta curiosity

There are two rear sear disconnect "noses" that stick up on the rear of the slide.

If you happen to make the mistake I did when I first owned her, the slide gets stuck between those two disconnects, and the forward stop. You can not go forward, and you can not go "over" the disconnects.

You have to either A.) pay attention and push the disconnects down before you get the slide to that point or B.) take the entire rear trigger group apart (little springs and detents every where) to get the slide back off the frame.

Giant PITA for any one not familiar with the 4000 series platform.

 

[sweaver]

so i am new to the forum and it is very comforting to find like minded individuals. i was getting ready for hunting season and thought i'd post some gun pics also the .204 / .50cal swap.

steve

 

[87mk111]

nice guns. waht pistol is that?

 

[MDCmotorsports]

Appears to be an XD in 40.

Also, for all you XD owners out there. Make sure you keep a close eye on your roll pin on the top of the slide. This roll pin keeps the firing pin / carrier pin place. It has a tendency to come apart (shatter) and jam the operation. Wouldn't it just be a bitch to have to use your fire arm, and be denied by a $.50 piece?

 

[sweaver]

any maintenence recamendations other that clean and lube? yes it is springfield arms xd .40 cal. however the T/C encore is my baby

 

[MDCmotorsports]

any maintenence recamendations other that clean and lube? yes it is springfield arms xd .40 cal. however the T/C encore is my baby

Don't run lead boooolets in her and you'll be fine.

Always make sure you run quality factory ammo that has a copper jacket on them.

Lead booooooolets are known to cause kabooooms on XD's, Glocks, and various other autos.

 

[Cz.]

Do XDs have polygonal rifling? Most of the time that's the reason that straight lead isn't recommended. If it's standard rifling there really shouldn't be any risk.