Solid subframe bushings

[Albert]

Hey guys. Just wanted to show you guys what I've been working in the last week. They are solid subframe bushings that are fully pressable, instead of spacers. I just use a .001 press fit, so all it takes is sticking it in the freezer for half an hour.

Right now I've only made the fronts, I'll have to start on the rears next week sometime.

Here are some pictures:

let me know if you guys have any questions or concerns!!

 

[spencyg]

I asked this question in another thread on this topic and never got a reply, so I'll ask it here. Why not just bang out a number of steel discs from 3/8" plate with the correct OD to be welded on the top and bottom of the sub frame mounting points? Maybe a tube would need to be welded at the bolting point to take the compression load of the bolts, but even if that's necessary (which I don't think it is if the right material thickness is used to begin with), you'd be looking at FAR less work and material cost than aluminum bushings. I also think the ride quality would be identical....at the point where you're comparing bushings to bushings, solid steel vs. solid aluminum isn't going to make a lick of difference. Just wondering why everybody is going the difficult and expensive route of aluminum...???

Thanks for your thoughts.

SG

 

[adampecush]

I think with solid subframe bushings, you are going to be breaking things you didn't think were possible. Unfortunately, you won't know until they fail catastrophically, which could be in a week, or 5 years down the line.

 

[Albert]

I asked this question in another thread on this topic and never got a reply, so I'll ask it here. Why not just bang out a number of steel discs from 3/8" plate with the correct OD to be welded on the top and bottom of the sub frame mounting points? Maybe a tube would need to be welded at the bolting point to take the compression load of the bolts, but even if that's necessary (which I don't think it is if the right material thickness is used to begin with), you'd be looking at FAR less work and material cost than aluminum bushings. I also think the ride quality would be identical....at the point where you're comparing bushings to bushings, solid steel vs. solid aluminum isn't going to make a lick of difference. Just wondering why everybody is going the difficult and expensive route of aluminum...???

Thanks for your thoughts.

SG

why would you weld plate to the subrame? A: is permanant, and B: It has the possibility of warping while welding. Pressable Bushings seems SOOO much easier. And choosing Alum over steel is a no brainer; It has soo many characteristics that are better: Corrosion, easier to machine, you can press it easier using the freezer method, and the cost of Alum is cheap! especially when you factor in tooling. you will go thru so many more inserts cutting steel then alum. ill use 1 insert to do all 10 bushings. start factoring time it takes to make steel ones, its longer; ie more money on your part.

---------- Post added at 11:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 AM ----------

I think with solid subframe bushings, you are going to be breaking things you didn't think were possible. Unfortunately, you won't know until they fail catastrophically, which could be in a week, or 5 years down the line.

Agreed, the car it is going on is a full Drag supra. guarentee things are gonna break. but for people that are worried about that, I have polyurethane bar stock that can be cut in the same dimensions very easily. in durometer ratings from 60A to 95A. only bad thing about that is, its about $220 bucks in order to complete the front and rear. and that is JUST the material!!!

 

[adampecush]

Agreed, the car it is going on is a full Drag supra. guarentee things are gonna break. but for people that are worried about that, I have polyurethane bar stock that can be cut in the same dimensions very easily. in durometer ratings from 60A to 95A. only bad thing about that is, its about $220 bucks in order to complete the front and rear. and that is JUST the material!!!

You've gotta pay to play. These should be right at home on a drag car. Street car...not so much.

 

[gurley0916]

I have to agree why would you weld steel plate on, aluminum does not corrode and it can be pressed back out if you decide you want to go with poly or replacement stock bushings.

 

[Albert]

Most People look for rears to eliminate wheel hop. Id let you guys know how the ride quality is, if its that much more noticeable, but his car wont be done till mid-late 2011

---------- Post added at 11:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 AM ----------

I have to agree why would you weld steel plate on, aluminum does not corrode and it can be pressed back out if you decide you want to go with poly or replacement stock bushings.

what happens when the weld cracks under high streess?

 

[airhead04]

PMd

 

[spencyg]

why would you weld plate to the subrame? A: is permanant, and B: It has the possibility of warping while welding. Pressable Bushings seems SOOO much easier. And choosing Alum over steel is a no brainer; It has soo many characteristics that are better: Corrosion, easier to machine, you can press it easier using the freezer method, and the cost of Alum is cheap! especially when you factor in tooling. you will go thru so many more inserts cutting steel then alum. ill use 1 insert to do all 10 bushings. start factoring time it takes to make steel ones, its longer; ie more money on your part.

If you know how to weld, warping is a moot issue. Welding is no more permanent than pressing an aluminum piece into a steel sleeve and then left to corrode. If you want to remove the plates, you cut the welds and remove the plates. Easy as that. Yes...Aluminum does corrode. That white powdery stuff which you see on the surface of old aluminum parts is oxidation, and you get a ton of it when dissimilar metals are pressed together. Machining would be minimal with steel discs. You wouldn't even need to machine if you're good with a cutting torch or plasma cutter and have a drill press (or a hand drill, for that matter). Aluminum is much more expensive pound for pound than steel...been to the metal yard recently? The price is easily double, and to make bushings from solid stock, you'll be removing over half of your purchased aluminum in the form of lathe turnings.

As far as welds cracking, I guess this goes back to knowing how to weld. Some of the welds I've seen on this site would certainly scare me in ANY application. The load on the bushings isn't very condusive to cracking anyway. Most of the load is transferred through compressive force (tightened chassis mounting bolts) directly into the unibody. Any sheer forces would be spread evenly between the 6 mounting points, and 12 plates (1 on top, one on bottom).

The subframe breaking as a result of being hard mounted? I suppose that point loads could be increased, but it certainly wouldn't be any more of an issue between a welded plate type mount, and a pressed bushing type mount.

SG

 

[Albert]

I jusT see it as a bitch to weld a disc on there. Making sure it's all lined up and not cock-eyed. Using a plasma torch? Good luck getting everything even and line up perfectly. 20 bucks for material for alum isn't bad at all IMO. And it's plug and play. Not everyone has acess to grinders, cut off wheels, drill press, etc etc. Turn it on a lathe. Cost me 20 bucks and 2 hours. Not bad considering I work at a machine shop.

I understand that disk may be easier to make. But to weld it on is where you got me???? Why not just do what BIC does an just sandwhich them in. No need for welding??? Works the same..

I was just trying to make it easier on the user. Ie: you recieve the bushing, freeze them, pop them in, done.

For Joe dirt that wants to hack up steel or inconell or what ever, I don't really care. More power to you. GL

 

[stevenr816]

SG,
You need to look at it from a customer point of view. They want something that is well engineered, has the least custom work required and these offer that. Not all people like us have custom tools like welders, grinders, lathes, band saws, benders, etc. If you can make these just the same quality with out the worry of stuff breaking vs. mine then great. These cost $30 for the t6 6061 plus the hours of R & D to get them precise to .0001" Yes aluminum is more epensive but has its trade offs, it doesnt rust like steel, yes it does corrod under certain elements, they are 2/3 lighter then steel, aswell as easier on tooling for the lathe (less time and money spent per tool/bushing made)

I custom made these for my 8/9 second drag car, but want to also road race and cruise on the weekend. These will work in every way you ever need. The class i want to race in, you cant have a roll cage coming out of the firewall so these also will add structural rigidity on top of it all. The stock bushings dont even have an outer shell there more of just sitting there for the ride. My stock one were able to come out with me pushing on it with an extension, thats how loose they are.

 

[GrimJack]

From my point of view, the aluminum ones have a couple advantages. AL may be more costly by the pound, however, it's also significantly less dense, so that will mitigate the materials cost significantly. More importantly, anyone can install the AL set in their own garage with a freezer to shrink 'em and common hand tools. Sure, a fair number of guys have a welder in their garage, but most of us do not.

Albert, those look fantastic. Have you considered selling them?

 

[Albert]

I will consider it once I design the rear bushings. I've already got pm's of people wanting the rears. I just need to factor cost plus labor. Etc etc

 

[gurley0916]

Albert does a good job of R&D and manufacturing since his shop builds parts for aircraft engines and most of them are prototype applications. Im really interested in having him make me a set of poly mounts once he has created the set for the rears. Keep up the good work! Would be nice to get these on the market for people.

 

[stevenr816]

Albert does a good job of R&D and manufacturing since his shop builds parts for aircraft engines and most of them are prototype applications. Im really interested in having him make me a set of poly mounts once he has created the set for the rears. Keep up the good work! Would be nice to get these on the market for people.

easy lol i did the r&d
albert ran the machine

 

[gurley0916]

Albert did the Rotary and Drill I know you did the Research and development

 

[GrimJack]

I've already got pm's of people wanting the rears.

I'm not surprised. Add me to the list of people to talk to when you get there. Don't forget to factor in something for the R&D work, and wear on the machine tools. Admittedly, if you're using someone else's gear to make 'em, you may not have to *pay* these costs, but it's nice to know what all the costs are in case you ever decide you want to retire.

 

[spencyg]

Apologies. I didn't realize we were talking about mass production here. I have to agree...if your intention is to bang out 50 sets of these, aluminum is the way to go. For those of us who don't have a lathe in the garage (I'd hanker to say a significant amount more than those who don't have a welder), my comments still apply.

Peace.

SG

 

[te72]

I'll be hitting you up next spring sir. Considering the fine line of road course/daily driver use that my car is being built for, would you use the poly or the aluminum?

 

[RPSil13]

put me down for a set of front/rear when you start making these
thanks