So, how about a titanium thrust washer?

[Reign_Maker]

No one has done a Rockwell Hardness test on it to determine if going to a different material will actually be better or not.

I've done a RW test... I'll get the results for you later... But from what I was told, the metal is already very hard...

and don't drop the clutch off the line with sticky drag tires.

Wll, I plan on doin that many many many times...

if your worried about heat use inconel.

I dunno if they have an inconel plate thick enough...

 

[X-man]

well i have an email out to weldon to answer that very question

Should be interesting to see what they have to say. Were you thinking of picking up gear lube from the drain hole and building some sort of distribution system on the top or could one drill and tap the case for 1/8th" NPT and run a series of number 4 JIC lines from a central manifold or distribution block to fittings installed in the holes drilled and tapped in the case. Have say a number 10 JIC pickup line to the pump and a no# 8 JIC line from the pump to a distribution block and then two or three no#4 delivery lines from the block to the tranny case placed to spray lube where it is needed the most?

 

[figgie]

Should be interesting to see what they have to say. Were you thinking of picking up gear lube from the drain hole and building some sort of distribution system on the top or could one drill and tap the case for 1/8th" NPT and run a series of number 4 JIC lines from a central manifold or distribution block to fittings installed in the holes drilled and tapped in the case. Have say a number 10 JIC pickup line to the pump and a no# 8 JIC line from the pump to a distribution block and then two or three no#4 delivery lines from the block to the tranny case placed to spray lube where it is needed the most?

numerous ways to skin this cat unfort and is all dependant on the pump.

 

[Adjuster]

How about this.

Machine the gear sides where the 1st gear washer resides. (Making that area wider as a result.)

Then machine a thrust washer that is about 2x as thick as stock. Do not put straight cut oil groves on the thicker custom washer.

Use spiral groves that are designed to pull oil into the center of the washer all the time.

Then deburr and molydisulfied coat the washer, and gear sides where it resides.

Might just be the ticket, and this will not cost an arm an leg to do. (You could even make the washer out of Inconel if you want. I think Inconel is a better option than Ti personally.)

The thicker washer would be less likely to fracture under shock loads, and being made from inconel, it would handle higher temps than the stock "sintered" metal washer. (Sintered metal being an opinion that I and the shop that did the machine work on my engine agreed on.) They guy that we sent out the trans to does them on the side, and is very good at rebuilding transmissions. He took the time to press out the tail shaft bushing and other parts that I wanted to coat, and I then coated everything I wanted and he pressed it all back together again. He even reccomended where to deburr and coat the shift forks to make them last longer, and hold up better. (Sort of like beam polishing a con rod, remove all the sharp edges, and moly coat the pads that make contact.)

I know many here have po-pooh'd the idea of additives, but moly in your transmission does excellent stuff, and there is that Bi-Tron stuff that is unknown to me, but makes some interesting claims. (How cheap would that be to run that as an additive, and solve the thrust washer problems due to better lubrication?)

Sounds to good to be true... (Usually is, but hey, it's cheap to try it.)

 

[GeneStarWindGSW]

You should have put the poll to find out who votes to see who is voting yes & who's voting no. IMO i think its a great idea if all the kinks can be worked out.

 

[Poodles]

old thread, but why not straight cut gears?

you don't have to put ALL straight cut gears, just first and second (and maybe third would be FINE for street use as you're not in them most of the time...

straight cut gears would eliminate the "thrust" on the thrustwasher, meaning it takes little to no load...

 

[GeneStarWindGSW]

There's like 50 of these threads going on. Admins can't you combine all of them together & sticky this or something?

 

[Reign_Maker]

No we cant... And this is old... There are a few guys making TWs out of different matials, brass alloys and such... My tranny is already done and in, so Im not having a Ti washer made...

As fro straight cut gears. that shit would be noisy as hell... Imagine the sound of reverse but going forward, ALOT faster, and alot louder...

 

[GeneStarWindGSW]

Sorry about that Jake. There's some new thrust washer threads going around & i thought this was it. Well combining it would be good for the information wise (what you stated & more)

 

[Reign_Maker]

When you merge threads, it becomes a cluster f*ck of a confusing mess... The posts are time stamped and remain in order, even if its from another thread... Make sense?

 

[GeneStarWindGSW]

yea i got cha. well extracting the good stuff from any written article is hard but its gotta be done some day . Hopefully not you though.. oh noes

 

[IJ.]

Ti is the wrong material for this part.

 

[Keros]

From what I've read in other threads and on other forums, the the stock TW is hardened steel, all the way through. This is why it cannot take shock loading, because although it is extremely hard, it is very brittle (as all hardened steel is). As most know, hardness and ductility are inversely related in steel; as hardness increases, ductility decreases. I don't think the hardness of the TW is the problem, the brittle nature of its hardened state is the reason it lasts so long but breaks under high power applications. It has no flex at all and just snaps.

If a thrust washer is just a washer of specific dimensions, a machine shop with a screw machine could churn them out for pennies in time/production costs. There's alot of different hardening methods for steel, perhaps a solution lies in steel with a different internal molecular arrangement... i.e. hardened exterior, soft and ductile interoir.

What is the operating temprature we need, and what is the max temp (say in an extended raceing environment)?

Inconel, molybendium, and titanium are all good ideas in principal. Moly is not that strong but doesn't change properties under temprature. Ti is a good all around solution but it does not take well to high stress high strain repeat loading cycles. Inconel is a super alloy that's not cheap to buy or use; Inconel is a bitch to shape because it eats most economy cutting tools for breakfast... high strength tooling and very thought out machinging is required to make it work without work hardening the sweet crap out of the material or destroying the tool. But it might be the ticket.

From what I can see, we need is a material that has high creep resistance in high temprature, very high surface wear resistance, mid range Young's Modulus (stiffness... too stiff and it will break, too ductile and it will bend under load in a repeat loading cycle and eventually break). I don't think Shear Modulus is really an issue... I would think that this is a compression/tension loading application.

A good materials engineer won't know what a thrust washer in an R154 does. I think deciding what we need and what the application is, and then taking that information to a professional, will get us our material to use. I.e. Does the washer get loaded axially? raidially? Is it under compression at all times, or in a zero load to fully loaded cycle, or a full compression to full tension loading cycle?

I've never really seen where the washer sits, nor do I know exactly what it does during shifting and under load.

 

[adampecush]

From what I can see, we need is a material that has high creep resistance in high temprature, very high surface wear resistance, mid range Young's Modulus (stiffness... too stiff and it will break, too ductile and it will bend under load in a repeat loading cycle and eventually break). I don't think Shear Modulus is really an issue... I would think that this is a compression/tension loading application.

Creep resistance? that is a non-issue. I highly doubt a thrust washer would experience sustained temps of 500C+, and forces acting on the thrust washer are generally compressive and shear in nature.

There are two different battles going on in the drive for an improved thrust washer - mechanical and metallurgical.

To determine the ideal material and condition, a proper analysis has to be done of a failed thrust washer. Throwing out recommendations based upon assumptions is stupid. The shape of the washer itself is nearly as important as the material from which the washer is constructed - if failure at higher loads is a result of design (likely), a new material will simply act as a bandaid and temporarily delay failure. It would be wise contacting someone well versed in bearing tribology to take care of the design.

As far as metallurgy is concerned, if someone feels like sending me a failed thrust washer, i will spec an appropriate material based on analysis.

While a good materials engineer might not be able to come up with an ideal design, i doubt a mecE would be able to spec a proper material.

 

[adampecush]

Ti is the wrong material for this part.

it sure is

But I thought titanium is the solution to everything ?

 

[Keros]

Creep resistance? that is a non-issue. I highly doubt a thrust washer would experience sustained temps of 500C+, and forces acting on the thrust washer are generally compressive and shear in nature.

There are two different battles going on in the drive for an improved thrust washer - mechanical and metallurgical.

To determine the ideal material and condition, a proper analysis has to be done of a failed thrust washer. Throwing out recommendations based upon assumptions is stupid. The shape of the washer itself is nearly as important as the material from which the washer is constructed - if failure at higher loads is a result of design (likely), a new material will simply act as a bandaid and temporarily delay failure. It would be wise contacting someone well versed in bearing tribology to take care of the design.

heh, I was wondering who would be paying attention the most

The point I was trying to steer towards is that we have to consider the metallergy based on the application, not just toss out names of elements and alloys because they're exotic metals or whatever. For all I know, with the right design, cold rolled steel might be the best solution.

As far as metallurgy is concerned, if someone feels like sending me a failed thrust washer, i will spec an appropriate material based on analysis.

This is the place to start, imho. Learn exactly what about the washer causes it to fail and why, and go from there.

While a good materials engineer might not be able to come up with an ideal design, i doubt a mecE would be able to spec a proper material.

Agreed, we need both to do it right. To make a design we need to know what to design for... I think IJ had a good start a few pages back. I do have one question, if the TW is the failed design point in the transmission and we remove it, what will break afterwards?

 

[adampecush]

I do have one question, if the TW is the failed design point in the transmission and we remove it, what will break afterwards?

perhaps a better question would be when will it break...i suppose they are both easily answered with enough power...

 

[Keros]

How about this.

Machine the gear sides where the 1st gear washer resides. (Making that area wider as a result.)

Then machine a thrust washer that is about 2x as thick as stock. Do not put straight cut oil groves on the thicker custom washer.

Use spiral groves that are designed to pull oil into the center of the washer all the time.

Then deburr and molydisulfied coat the washer, and gear sides where it resides.

Might just be the ticket, and this will not cost an arm an leg to do. (You could even make the washer out of Inconel if you want. I think Inconel is a better option than Ti personally.)

The thicker washer would be less likely to fracture under shock loads, and being made from inconel, it would handle higher temps than the stock "sintered" metal washer. (Sintered metal being an opinion that I and the shop that did the machine work on my engine agreed on.) They guy that we sent out the trans to does them on the side, and is very good at rebuilding transmissions. He took the time to press out the tail shaft bushing and other parts that I wanted to coat, and I then coated everything I wanted and he pressed it all back together again. He even reccomended where to deburr and coat the shift forks to make them last longer, and hold up better. (Sort of like beam polishing a con rod, remove all the sharp edges, and moly coat the pads that make contact.)

I know many here have po-pooh'd the idea of additives, but moly in your transmission does excellent stuff, and there is that Bi-Tron stuff that is unknown to me, but makes some interesting claims. (How cheap would that be to run that as an additive, and solve the thrust washer problems due to better lubrication?)

Sounds to good to be true... (Usually is, but hey, it's cheap to try it.)

Can you give me some rough dimensions of the ID/OD/THK? I can model something up to turn words into pictures.

 

[GeneStarWindGSW]

SMART PEOPLE FIGHT! lol.

 

[IJ.]

From what I've read in other threads and on other forums, the the stock TW is hardened steel, all the way through. This is why it cannot take shock loading, because although it is extremely hard, it is very brittle (as all hardened steel is). As most know, hardness and ductility are inversely related in steel; as hardness increases, ductility decreases. I don't think the hardness of the TW is the problem, the brittle nature of its hardened state is the reason it lasts so long but breaks under high power applications. It has no flex at all and just snaps.

If a thrust washer is just a washer of specific dimensions, a machine shop with a screw machine could churn them out for pennies in time/production costs. There's alot of different hardening methods for steel, perhaps a solution lies in steel with a different internal molecular arrangement... i.e. hardened exterior, soft and ductile interoir.

What is the operating temprature we need, and what is the max temp (say in an extended raceing environment)?

Inconel, molybendium, and titanium are all good ideas in principal. Moly is not that strong but doesn't change properties under temprature. Ti is a good all around solution but it does not take well to high stress high strain repeat loading cycles. Inconel is a super alloy that's not cheap to buy or use; Inconel is a bitch to shape because it eats most economy cutting tools for breakfast... high strength tooling and very thought out machinging is required to make it work without work hardening the sweet crap out of the material or destroying the tool. But it might be the ticket.

From what I can see, we need is a material that has high creep resistance in high temprature, very high surface wear resistance, mid range Young's Modulus (stiffness... too stiff and it will break, too ductile and it will bend under load in a repeat loading cycle and eventually break). I don't think Shear Modulus is really an issue... I would think that this is a compression/tension loading application.

A good materials engineer won't know what a thrust washer in an R154 does. I think deciding what we need and what the application is, and then taking that information to a professional, will get us our material to use. I.e. Does the washer get loaded axially? raidially? Is it under compression at all times, or in a zero load to fully loaded cycle, or a full compression to full tension loading cycle?

I've never really seen where the washer sits, nor do I know exactly what it does during shifting and under load.

Really well constructed and thought out post that totally misses the issue at hand due to incorrect base information....

The Thrust Washer is Sintered material and this is THE only reason they fail when subjected to impact loads.

For anyone that's wondering Sintering is taking Metallic powder and pressing it into almost the finished shape/size and then heating to exact temps with minimal follow up machine work needed, great for production as it's quick and cheap but it has limitations strength wise and is quite heavy.

I think/feel ANY Steel that can be heat treated or Ti Nitrided to give a wear resistant surface will work fine.