So, how about a titanium thrust washer?

Should I have a titanium thrust washer made?

  • YES! That's awesome!

    Votes: 26 50.0%
  • No! You're wasting your time, it wont help being titanium!

    Votes: 14 26.9%
  • Whats a thrust washer? :(

    Votes: 12 23.1%

  • Total voters
    52

Keros

Canadian Bacon
Mar 16, 2007
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IJ. said:
Really well constructed and thought out post that totally misses the issue at hand due to incorrect base information....

The Thrust Washer is Sintered material and this is THE only reason they fail when subjected to impact loads.

For anyone that's wondering Sintering is taking Metallic powder and pressing it into almost the finished shape/size and then heating to exact temps with minimal follow up machine work needed, great for production as it's quick and cheap but it has limitations strength wise and is quite heavy.

I think/feel ANY Steel that can be heat treated or Ti Nitrided to give a wear resistant surface will work fine.

haha, thanks IJ :icon_bigg

I know enough about material science to get by, but transmissions are out of my leauge. If you can think it, I can model it in 3D using Solidworks... which can be exported to a veriety of surface/solid files that can be turned into G-Code for any C&C machine.

Assuming what we need is more complicated than a flat washer with an inside dia, outside dia, and a thickness, someone in the know should sketch something up and we'll get the ball rolling. Adjuster was talking about sprialled oil grooves... that's easy.
 

IJ.

Grumpy Old Man
Mar 30, 2005
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I come from a land down under
The spiral groove thing was something I suggested on SF a few years back to drag some lubricant into the Thrust ;)

I have a 3 axis Bridgeport Clone CNC here at home but as I don't use the 154 I've never given it more than a passing thought just figured I'd jump in and head off your post before you ended up overthinking the problem.
 

Keros

Canadian Bacon
Mar 16, 2007
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lol, thanks IJ.

Somehow I picture IJ as having far too much in common with Doc: http://www.the-whiteboard.com/

i.e. carries around a CNC machine like most people carry around a leatherman :icon_razz

Anyway, if someone who knows what this washer should look like wants a model made for a CNC machine, just let me know.
 

Poodles

I play with fire
Jul 22, 2006
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I agree with IJ here that if it was made of a good billet steel it would probably be fine. BUT if the thrust washer can't be made better (or bigger by machining the gears) and it still breaks, the only solution is really to remove the forces on it... in other words using straight cut gears.

IIRC the thrust washer that fails is only for first and second gear, replaceming them witn straight cut gears would be a good solution IMHO. How often do you REALLY sit in first or second? We're also talking about a component that fails under shock loads from racing, why worry about the noise?

Someone also pointed out that maybe Marlin (from marlin crawler) hasn't ever made a replacement because it's the effect of something else. Namely the thrust pushes out the bearing plate and loosens up the tolerances in the tranny. So instead of a straight load, you get a hammering effect on the thrust washer and it fails. (think rod knock here)
 

IJ.

Grumpy Old Man
Mar 30, 2005
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Poodles: That's exactly what I meant by impact loads.

I think/feel this is why Duane can run huge HP through his without failure because his trans is tight enough so the gear can't get a run up and smash into the thrust so it's only seeing a compression load and not an impact.
 

Keros

Canadian Bacon
Mar 16, 2007
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From http://www.mkiiitech.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=835 referenced from an SM thread:

The stock washer you gave me to analyse is made from a sintered material – most likely an iron/copper alloy. They do it this way at the factory because 1, it’s cheap and near net shape. 2, the sintered material is porous so lubrication is never a problem even if it doesn’t get oil all the time. The down side to the sintered material is it is extremely weak, with typical tensile strengths of around 300Mpa and it has very little fatigue properties.

The stock washer has been carbonitrided (a hardening process) about 0.2mm deep and has a surface hardness of about 52HRc.

My plan is to use a high strength carburising steel called EN39B (similar to the American grade 9310 but slightly better). This stuff is a 4.5%Ni Cr Mo steel and when carburised is extremely strong. Tensile strength will be up around 1300Mpa so it will take a lot more load than the stocker. The surface hardness will be 62HRc so wear resistance should be comparable to the sintered part. Carburising leaves a high compressive residual stress on the surface so fatigue life will be high and crack initiation difficult. The idea with carburising is you have a hard wear resistant skin on a tough high strength core so the part is not brittle.

Pretty much all of the parts inside the good transmissions (Hollinger, liberty, G-Force etc) are made from 9310 and heat treated this way, including the gears, shafts, thrust components and bearing races so I’m not reinventing the wheel.

Someone on the forum commented about a D2 washer breaking – that is because D2 is a high carbon/chrome tool steel. When it’s hardened it is full of huge chrome carbides and is very wear resistant but also very weak. It can only be through hardened so has no tough core to hold it all together, basically like a piece of glass.

On the subject of machining the nose off first gear… This is also a carburised part, the depth of carburising would be approx 0.6mm so you can't machine much off without breaking into soft metal – probably not the best option unless you want to try re-carburising etc, which whilst not impossible, will probably cause all sorts of distortion issues and noisy gears.

If I'm making a few of these I will probably CNC machine the majority of it so cost will come down a bit. All of the external stuff like material, heat treatment, surface grinding etc is a good part of the cost and something I don't have much control over so without going into too much detail I think we will be looking at about NZD$110 a piece.
If there is international interest shipping cost would be minimal because it could just be air-mailed in a small envelope.

Hopefully that will cover most of the enquiries until I'm back from holiday.

Regards,

Adam Walmsley

This is interesting due to his point of taking the nose off 1st gear in oder to make the washer thicker... assuming he's correct in the carberizing treatment, it'd be a generally bad idea. But then again, 300MPa is a pretty sissy tensile strength for a part like this. I know we can do better.
 

Poodles

I play with fire
Jul 22, 2006
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IJ. said:
Poodles: That's exactly what I meant by impact loads.

I think/feel this is why Duane can run huge HP through his without failure because his trans is tight enough so the gear can't get a run up and smash into the thrust so it's only seeing a compression load and not an impact.

yep, duanes tranny was rebuilt before he used it, and the people running the Marlin rebuilt trannies (comes with the heavy duty bearing plate) are having good luck with them.
 

Doward

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
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Good to know that my heavy duty bearing retainer will go to good use, then :D

I've got a brand new stock thrust washer sitting here. I've got the next two weeks off, so I plan on finishing my r154 rebuild over that time ;)
 

Doward

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
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Looking at it myself, I like Ian's idea the best (short of going with a full oiling system for it) - using a NON-sintered hardened steel washer, with spiral cut grooves to help pull the oil in.

My only concern, is if Toyota used porous sintered metal due to oiling concerns.

Maybe a combination of the two would be the best route to take?
 

Supracentral

Active Member
Mar 30, 2005
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Doward said:
Looking at it myself, I like Ian's idea the best (short of going with a full oiling system for it) - using a NON-sintered hardened steel washer, with spiral cut grooves to help pull the oil in.

That might work well.

Doward said:
My only concern, is if Toyota used porous sintered metal due to oiling concerns.

Maybe a combination of the two would be the best route to take?

Yea, I've considered that myself, and my fear is that removing any material from that sintered part to create the grooves is probably a recipe for disaster.

Somebody needs to make a one off based upon Ian's idea (hardened & grooved) and just beat the crap out of it.
 

Poodles

I play with fire
Jul 22, 2006
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I remember a post not too long ago about someone tearing down their tranny and finding sludge in the oil grooves in the thrust washer as well...

could also contribute to the failure, but people that blow em over and over I'm thinking it's the case flaexing and banging.

Good example. Hard pull in first flexes case out opening up the tolerances. You then flat shift or shift very hard into second. You have slack in the system and then close it hard...

I don't know of anyone running the marlin crawler bearing plate that's destroyed thrust washers. If they have, please comment!
 

Doward

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
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Your scenario would have more to do with just having loose tolerances (worn tranny), vs case flex, imho, Poodles.

Is Duane running the MC bearing plate? I've already got one that's going in - Maybe I'll see if I can tear up the r154's stock thrust washer (going to be running MTL in it) - if so, I'll tear it back down for a hardened/spiral grooved thrust washer.

I really hate to just do the hardened/spiral thrust washer, put it together with the MC bearing retainer, and find that the R154 lives fine - won't know if it was the thrust washer, or the bearing retainer that kept it alive!
 

Poodles

I play with fire
Jul 22, 2006
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I wouldn't care either...

just make sure you have those thrust washers made in decent quanties so othere can test em...

I want to do my own tranny rebuild, but marlin's service isn't too expensive and they replace any worn parts...
 

tissimo

Stock is boring :(
Apr 5, 2005
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Interesting. I'm going to look into the Marlin plate when I rebuild my trans. I would like to replace the thrust washer with a harder material as well. Is anyone offering a replacement or are they all custom peices?